Guest guest Posted May 18, 2002 Report Share Posted May 18, 2002 SRIMATHE RAMANUJAYA NAMAH APPAN THIRUVADIGALE SARANAM Dear Venkatesh Swamin, Accept my pranam. In my posting Adiyen have not questioned the SWATANTARYAM of Emperuman. In fact, Adiyen is in total agreement of Emperuman's Absolute powers and also, am in agreement with sidhdhopayam. But, the references Adiyen have pointed explain the acts of Emperuman towards Jeevan ( here , Nammazhvar). From these pasurams it has to be infered that jeevan was redeemed from samsara by the grace of Emperuman. In otherwords, the jeevan has fallen down from the expectations..ie., to follow the sastras and do his duties properly and remain with his swaroopam always. Definitely,it will not be under the orders of Emperuman. Then, how the jeevan faltered? Here only, unless some sort of sanction is given for the act of the jeevan, he cannot falter and Emperuman cannot exercise his KARUNYAM. Here the role of PRATTI also comes in. Emperuman can act on his own accord also. There is no question about it. But the fact is, if one does not falter there is no room for salvation. This faltering is ONLY ONCE. Thereafter the laws of karama and reactions will take care of the jeevan and Emperuman will have the opportunity to reedem the jeeva. Adiyen have given a preamble in this connection in my earlier posting before giving the pasurams. Adiyen have quoted Sutra 403 of SREEVACHANA BHOOSHANAM ALSO. Again, Adiyen is repeating it here. Krupai perugapukkal IRUVAR SWATHANTHARYATHALUM thakhaya onnathapadi irukarai azhiya perugum' 'IRUVAR SWATHANTHARYATHALUM...' ONE IS EMPERUMAN. Who is the other? Swamin, Emperuman ONLY is Sarvasutantaran. All others are PARATHANTRAS . Iam in total agreement of this position. Adiyen firmly believe in Siddhopaya and no question about it. But, the jeevans are toiling in leela vibhuthi; it is becacuse of their first action and are enduring the reactions thereafter. This can only be infered. If Adiyen, have not understood properly, maybe corrected. Adiyen Parthasarathy Dasan. On Sat, 18 May 2002 TV Venkatesh/FXSLF/SEC/SANMAR wrote : > >srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha >srImadh varavara munayE namaha > >Dear Sri Parthasarathy swamy, > >Please go through all your quotations from the pAsuram. No where >it states >that the jeevAthmA has freedom. These are the pAsurams >- in which emberumAn is said to have influenced the jeevAthmAs in >their >decision >- in which it is said that emberumAn considers even the ignorant >acts of >the jeevAthmAs as a pretext. > >Where is it indicated that the jeevAthmA has swAthanthryAm. >Regarding the >blame of "sarva mukthi prasangam", I would refer all to the >wonderful lines >of Sri T.C.A Venkatesan swamy > >----------Quote------------ >Once a chEtanan reaches the Lord's abode our >pUrvacharyas have indicated that he/she is still not >guaranteed a place in the nithya vibhUti. It is said >that He might still reject the chEtanan and send >him back. This is attributed to His svAtantraya >kalyANa guNa. This guNa not only means that He is >not held answerable to anyone for His actions; it >also means that His actions are not tied to the >actions of anyone else. Hence, to say that >performance of Saranagati guarantees mOksha would >be incorrect. >-----------Unquote--------- > >Please read the underlined sentences very carefully. This IS the >essence of >my postings always. Yes, He is NOT ANSWERABLE to anyone. In fact >if we >think that He is answerable, and hence He may get "sarva mukthi >prasanga" >dOsham, it is only our true swarUpam of "pArathanthryam" which >gets >affected. When our true nature is that we are slaves of >emberumAn, do we >have the right to question Him? I am sure, your answer is NO? >When we, who >have realized the true nature of our swarUpam which is "slave >to >emberumAn", are going to question emberumAn's activity, who else >is going >to question Him. Again, when He is not answerable to anyone >including >ourselves (even considering that we ask such a question to Him), >where is >the question of emberumAn needing to answer the non-believers. > >Coming to the saraNAgathi aspect in the posting of Sri T.C.A >Venkatesan >swamy, he has really brought out the essence of it. Though many >people say >that Sri nammAzhwAr did some actual physical saraNAgathi by >saying >"adikkeezh amarnthu pugundhEnE", Sri nammAzhwAr himself has >clarified his >stance in the next pAsuram aptly quoted by Sri T.C.A Venkatesan >swamy. Sri >nammAzhwAr, in this pAsuram, clearly states that even his act of >performing >saraNAgathi was induced in him by emberumAn. So, does the >"saraNAgathi", in >context of sAdhyOpAyam has any case at all. I am sure it is clear > from >here. > >The same aspect is reflected by Sri nammAzhwAr again in >thiruvAimozhi >itself, in fact much earlier in the second decad, where he says, >"enadhAvi >thandhozhindhEn, ini meeLvadhenbadhuNdE". He it seems that AzhwAr >says, he >has performed an act of surrender (swa pravrutti). But >immediately in the >same pAsuram he says, "endhAvi Ar, yAn Ar, thandha nee >koNdAkkinayE". >Means, "Who is my soul and who am I to perform this. It is you >who gave me >my soul (for this body) and took me into your fold" (Complete swa >pravrutti >nivrutti). > >Similarly Sri ALavandhAr says in his stOthrarathnam first ," >ahamadhyaiva >mayA samarpitha:", means I surrender before you. But immediately >in the >next slOkam, he says "mama nAtha! yadhasthi yOsmyaham, sakalam >thaddhI >thavaiva mAdhava, niyathaswamithi prabuddha dhI:, athavA kinnu >samarpayAmithE!". He says, You are my master and You gave me >everything and >You order me for everything and everthing is Yours, so what can I >give to >You. > >Very very clear wordings of our AzhwArs and AchAryAs to prove >that it is >only siddhOpAyam that grants us mOksham. > >AzhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam >adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan >Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh > > > > > "thirunarayanan > parthasarathy To: >ramanuja > iyengar" cc: > <shyamala45@rediff Re: >[ramanuja] Re: Thirumaalai-2 > mail.com> > > 17-05-02 05:21 AM > Please respond to > ramanuja Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha. > Appan Thiruvdigale Saranam > > "Posting of Sri Vinjamoor Venkatesh dated 16th >May, >2002." > >Dear Baghavathas, Accept my pranam. > > The information required in this posting is " Is there any >pasuram by Azhvar where the Jeeva swathantharyam is spoken of" > > Adiyen is furnishing informations as understood by me to >the >best of my knowledge. If it is erroneous Adiyen may be >corrected. > > Sutras 381 onwards of "SREEVACHANA BHOOSHNAM' will be >of >help. PRDHAMAPRAVARTHI SWATHANTHARYAM to jeevan is to be >inferred >; otherwise, Emperuman will have to be blamed for all the >acts(asat acts) of the Jeeva. Also, Emperuman is granting >'moksham' to those only who are mature enough and would want >nothing short of Emperuman Emperuman ONLY.They cannot remain a >single second away from him. Emperuman is desireous of >salvaging >these jeevans to whom he has given body and 'karanas for >acting' >to worship HIM like Nityasuris.Unfortunately the jeevans are >attracted by earthly pleasures and has fallen in 'Asatkarmas'. >Emperuman remain silent at this time of first action. >Thereafter, >they have to undergo the results of their action . From here >only, >Emperuman is waiting for an oppurtunity to bestow some benifits >to >the jeeva. At the same time he should not be blamed as partial >to >some body. So, on some pretexts, the jeevan would have >expressed >his name without intention; like that some of the actions., say >sheltering Adiyars under his roof without intention etc., Such >trifile acts will be counted as 'sukrutham' and the jeevan will >be >bestowed by the Lord's grace. If the jeevan does not protest to >this sort help, the Grace of Emperuman continues and the >Atmayatra >of the Jeevan has started.Slowly he gets promotion till 'moksha >is >attained. > ----Azhvar Pasurangals: > "INRU ENNAI P PORULAKKI THANNAI ENNUL VAITHAN '( >Thiruvaimozhi. >10-8-9) > 'ENNANRISEITHONO ENNENCHIL THIKAZHVATHUVE' ( >THIRUVAIMOZHI 10-6-8) > 'NADUVE VANTHU UYYAKOLKINRA NATHAN' >(Thiruvaimozhi1-7-5) > 'ARIYATHANARIVITTHA ATTHA NEE SEITHANA ADIYENARIYENE' >(Thiruvaimozhi 2-3-2) > 'PORULALLATHA ENNAI PORULAKKI ADIMAIKONDAI' >(Thiruvaimozhi. >5-3-3) > 'ENNAI THEEMANAM KEDUTHTHAI' (Thiruvaimozhi 2-7-8) > 'MARUVITHOZHUME MANAME THANTHAI' >(Thiruvaimozhi-2-7-7) > From these Pasurams, it can be inferred that jeevan has >fallen >under bad days or (ways) and Emperuman has helped him immensely >without asking ( the cumulative effect of trifle acts done >without >intention) ie., NIRHETHUKA KRUPAI. > 'VERITHE ARUL SEIVAR SEIVARKATKKU' (Thiruvaimozhi >8-7-8) > Emperuman will bestow his grace for whom he wants decide >to >give; for He has created a desire in the mind of the jeevan to >turn towards Him; the jeevan has also responded favourably. > 'ETHIRSOOZHAL PUKKU ENAITHORU PIRAPPUM ENAKKE ARULKAL >SEYYA >VIDHI SOOZHNTHAL ENEKELAMMAN THIRUVIKRAMANAIYE' (Thirvaimozhi >2.7.6) Emperuman THIRUVIKRAMN has determined to bestow his >grace >in every janma to me.. Such is my fate ' Azhvar express his >joy >gratitude and wonder for this NIRHETHUKA KRUPAI' > 'VIDHIVAYKKU INRU KAPPAR YAR ?' (Thiruvaimozhi5-1-1) >Here >the Sutra 403 of Srivachanabooshanam is given...'KRUBAI >PERUKAPUKKAL IRUVAR SWATHANTHARYATHHALUM TKHAYA ONNATHAPADI >IRUKARAI YAZHIYA PERUGUM'. I hope the above explain the >JEEVAN'S >PRADHAMAPRVARTHI SWATHANTHARYM AND EMPERUMAN'S NIRHETHUKA >KRUPAI. >Yours Adiyan Parthasarathy Dasan. >On Thu, 16 May 2002 vinjamoor_venkatesh wrote : > >srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha > >srImadh varavara munayE namaha > > > >Dear Smt Sumitra, > > > >The worldly analogies cannot always be used to describe > >emberumAn's > >activities. He is "otthAr mikkArai ilayAya mAmAyan" and >"eedum > >eduppum ilAdha eesan". There is a limit to which the worldly > >analogies and logic can be used to describe emberumAn's > >activities. > > > >The analogy provided by you is convincing though, to prove >that > >there > >is a freedom to the jeevAthma. But, what I wanted to know >was, > >is > >there any pAsuram by our AzhwArs', where this jeeva >swAthanthryam > >is > >spoken of. Not to my knowledge. Well, I know only 2000 >pAsuram. > >What > >I understood was that, this swAthanthryam is accepted only by > >the > >vadakalais, in order to get rid emberumAn of the "sarva >mukthi > >prasanga" dOsham. If at all this is acceptable to us, surely > >this > >might have been emphasized by any AzhwAr or AchArya. Can > >learned > >members please throw light on this. > > > >AzhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam > >adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan > >Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh > > > > > >------------------------ Sponsor > > > >azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam > > > > > >Your use of is subject to > > > > > > > >_______ >Click below to visit monsterindia.com and review jobs in India >or >Abroad >http://monsterindia.rediff.com/jobs > > > > >azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam > > >Your use of is subject to > > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * >* * > > > > The information contained in this message is legally >privileged and > confidential information intended only for the use of >the addressed > individual or entity indicated in this message (or >responsible for > delivery of the message to such person). It must not be >read, copied, > disclosed, distributed or used by any person other than the >addressee. > Unauthorised use, disclosure or copying is strictly prohibited >and may be > unlawful. > > Opinions, conclusions and other information on this message >that do not > relate to the official business of any of the constituent >companies of > the SANMAR GROUP shall be understood as neither given nor >endorsed by > the Group. > > If you have received this message in error, you should >destroy this > message and kindly notify the sender by e-mail. > > Thank you. > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * >* * > > > > > > >------------------------ Sponsor > >azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam > > >Your use of is subject to > > > _______ Click below to visit monsterindia.com and review jobs in India or Abroad http://monsterindia.rediff.com/jobs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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