apourushEya and dEsika

[Guest guest]

srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha

 

Dear Sri NArAyaNan:

 

Please forgive me for bring this up, but couple of points that you

make below have different meanings than the one you provide (as I

have been taught):

 

 

>ramanuja, Kazhiyur Mannar Narayanan <nkazhiyur>

>wrote:

>

> apouruSEya lieterally mean something that is not

> authored.(unauthored, ONLY from the mouth of the Lord)

 

apourusEya means that the shruthis do not have an author or an

originator, not even the Lord. They exist independently along with

Eeshwara. They are described as realized (discovered) by r'shis as

the absolute description of the Supreme brahman (if they come out of

perumAL's mouth, they lose their independent status as the absolute

truth). The vEdas are verily described as the breath (shwAsa) of

Brahman, meaning that they have concomitant existence.

 

The apourushEya concept is critical from a stand point of mImAmsa,

because it posits that the ultimate truth has to be absolute. It

cannot have any thing (including emperumAn) as its source, and hence,

it is wrong to say that apourushEya means 'ONLY from the mouth of the

Lord'.

 

>

>

> The words 'Desikar' in verse 36 and 57 does not refer

> to Swami Desikan. If someone says so, he needs to

> recaliberate his Tamil grammer. It is used not as a

> proper noun. It is rather used as a common noun. The

> rough meaning of word 'Desika' is 'great and saintly

> person'

>

 

The term dEsikA in sanskrit simply means 'spiritual guide' or

master. While it is not a Tamil word (and may have nothing to do

with grammar therein), it is commonly used as a term of respect for

Acharyas in maNipravALam.

 

aDiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan,

 

sridhar

[Guest guest]

Sri:

SrimathE RAmAnujAya nama:

 

Dear Sri Sridhar,

Please don't think that I am cross questioning. I have a

sincere desire to seek the truth.

 

> apourusEya means that the shruthis do not have an author or an

> originator, not even the Lord. They exist independently along with

> Eeshwara. They are described as realized (discovered) by r'shis as

> the absolute description of the Supreme brahman (if they come out

of

> perumAL's mouth, they lose their independent status as the absolute

> truth). The vEdas are verily described as the breath (shwAsa) of

> Brahman, meaning that they have concomitant existence.

 

This question I posed before to HH Sri Jeeyar,HH sais vEdAs are the

breath of God. The foll. is HH's answer.

 

"Lord Krishna said Ultimate Goal of Vedas is to show Him and the lead

the soul to know Him and be in His service with Love and devotion. He

is the essence of the Vedas. Vedas are not created by any one.

Vedas,God (Srimannarayana),Souls are all beginningless and Endless.

Vedas are not compilations. They are Divine Sounds having

relationship with the Universal Truths.You can see our answer about

Apourusheyas posted earlier. They might have been written in script

form and presented on one day by Great Rishis. Vedas are a presenting

the existing Truths. God revealed them to Bramha when Bramha was

first created by Him. No body knows the origin of Vedas. Vedas

doesn't contain anything of their author. Lord

himself says that he revealed them, expounded them".

 

 

But HH Sri Jeeyar also says that nobody knows the origin of the vedas

and I'm not able to get this in connection with the co-existence of

Narayana,vedas,jIvAtmA. When you say you don't know the origin,how

can you say/conclude that they are beginningless(origin itself is not

known which means whether they existed forever/somethingelse). Truly

speaking these vEdAs confuse a person like me. It's like saying that

knowledge and ignorance co-exist. How Sriman Narayana breaths? We

need air to breathe. How will you explain all this? It's my sincere

question,so don't laugh at it. Because students(college/univ)ask all

kinds of possible questions,we have to give a convincing

answer,otherwise they don't want to come near scriptures. One of my

friend(who is an iyengar boy)told me casually saying that he has

reserved bhaja govindam and other stuff after the age 60. I consider

him as my bro(let Narayana bless him)and I asked him what's the

guarantee that he is going to live till 60. Uncertainly principle of

quantum mechanics rules(nature poses uncertainty). He told me that I

was being a bit harsh but he told me he didn't take it seriously as

he considers me as his siter.

 

But anyways I have total faith in PerumAL.

 

 

> > The words 'Desikar' in verse 36 and 57 does not refer

> > to Swami Desikan. If someone says so, he needs to

> > recaliberate his Tamil grammer. It is used not as a

> > proper noun. It is rather used as a common noun. The

> > rough meaning of word 'Desika' is 'great and saintly

> > person'

> >

>

> The term dEsikA in sanskrit simply means 'spiritual guide' or

> master. While it is not a Tamil word (and may have nothing to do

> with grammar therein), it is commonly used as a term of respect for

> Acharyas in maNipravALam.

 

You could be right,but I've heard that NDP has 75% of samskrt words

only the syntax/grammar is tamizh. I don't know how authentic what I

heard

 

AzhwAr EmperumAnAr Jeeyar TiruvadigaLE saraNam

gita

> aDiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan,

>

> sridhar

[Guest guest]

SrimathE RAmAnujAya nama:

 

Dear Nappinnai (such a beautiful name!):

 

Your desire and enthusiasm to learn is both infectious and apparent.

However, all learning processes (and probably most processes in

prakrithi) involve a process of evolution. It is important to accept

that we may not be able to comprehend certain concepts because we may

not be intellectually ready for them.

 

For instance, if I try to talk about the general theory of relativity

or Schroedinger's Cat to my four year old daughter (given that she is

quite inquisitive and sincere), it may not make a lot of sense.

Likewise, to a lot of people, the 'apourushEya' notion falls outside

their 'common sense'. However, such absence of comprehension in no

way alters the truth of the apourushEya concept or that the vEdas

exist independently (as all truth does). There is a lot that one has

to learn (in terms of basics of shAstra) before one can even begin to

comprehend the natures of chith and Eeshwara or vEdic statements. It

is important to recognize that such comprehension is not necessary to

get near KaNNan or experience perumAL, not is it sufficient. All

that the comprehension provides is a sense of cease less wonderment

at the infinite beauty of perumAL, His sousheelyam and soulabhyam.

Ultimately, we will realize He is the one who will give us that

comprehension, if we are ready for it.

 

Now, more importantly, it is critical to recognize that all learning

is a step by step process. And when it comes to the ultimate

knowledge, understanding the glories of srImannArAyaNA and His

vibhoothi, even the vEdas give up (yathO vAcha nivarthanthE aprApya

manasA saha - unable to comprehend with the mind (Intellect), we come

back to repeating with words that we are not able to grasp with the

Intellect), meaning, we surrender to the notion that the true

vibhoothi of emperumAn can only be experienced and not comprehended.

 

Instead of rushing to ask the first hundred questions that pop up in

our fertile, febrile minds, when confronted with a statement from

shAstra, it may be useful if we attempt to understand the simpler

things of our inalienable relationship with perumAL, like, understand

every word in thiruppAvai or listen to the swApadEshartham, or learn

sanskrit and tamizh or read about the lives of our poorvAchAryas or

stop making statements from hearsay/ignorance - that DP contains 75

percent sanskrit words - or find an Acharya to help us (I speak for

all of us, because most of us are in the same boat when it comes to

ignorance) - now before somebody jumps on me for attributing

ignorance, this is a statement from srI vachana bhooshaNam of Swamy

piLLai lOkachAryar (that inimitable guide to how to live a life as a

sri vaishNava) - where Swamy says

 

agnyAnathAlE prapannar asmadAdigaL

gnyAnAdikhyaththAlE prapannar maharshigaL

bhakthi pAravasyaththAle prapannar AzhwArgaL

 

Swamy, in his infinite kindness, includes himself with us in saying

that our only qualification state for prapathi is our agnyAnam

(ignorance).

 

> Truly speaking these vEdAs confuse a person like me. It's like

> saying that knowledge and ignorance co-exist.

 

Which is why our Acharyas have created vyAkyAnams for divya

prabandham (created for many of us explicitly to obviate the need to

learn the vEdas as a basis to understand emperumAn), the very essence

of the vedas, much more accessible. Our dear Kannan says in the BG

(yAvAnartha udapAne sarvathaha sampluthOdake, thAvAn sarvEshu vEdEshu

brAhmaNasya vijAnathaha) that

it is important to learn from what is applicable to our station in

life (mannassukku eTTara vishayam), the vEdas contain material for

everybody, but a brAhmaNa has to take what is applicable to him.

 

The reason the vedas confuse many is because they do make the

statement that ignorance is the basis of knowledge (He who knows that

he does, does not and He who knows that he does not, does). But the

vEdic statement here makes perfect sense for a few gnyAnis who have

the intellectual maturity to comprehend the substance of the vedas.

For some one like me, who may not have it, there is the bhakti

siddhAnjanam (perumAL Himself).

 

Once we decide to go along with perumAL (and not turn away, even

attempting to comprehend things as a process of self discovery is

achith sambandham), our doubts/questions will vanish with the same

alacrity as we will discover the ultimate joy.

 

aDiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan,

 

sridhar

[Guest guest]

SRIMATHE rAMANUJAYA NAMAHA;

APPAN THIRUVADIGALE SARANAM

 

Dear Smt. Gita Accept my pranam

 

This is loud thinking on 'Apourusheya'

 

Veda... meaning Knowledge

Sruthi... """ that is heard

Smruthi.. " " that is remembered. These words are of

Sanskrit origin.But, the substance is universal.

 

The revelation of Brhaman (Sriman Narayanan ) and sastras were

made to Brhma. He passed on sastras to Rishis and from them to

humanity by Acharya- sishyas orally earlier and now by other means

also ( as the sceince advances).

 

As the substance is universal and absolute, the experience of

revelation can be had by other persons also, who communicate in

other languages. Is this Correct?

 

If this position is contested, the condition of Brhaman being

Absolute and universal will not hold good.

 

 

Then, Brhman ie., Sriman Narayana, Who is eternal or infinite can

be revealed by knowledge,only. Only to those who can know or

understand him

 

 

This means that Lord can reveal himself of his own free will to

whom he wishes (Nirhethuka Krupai). No body can question him

 

He can be revealed to those who have undergone

rigorous tests of Gnam and Anushtanams as per scriptures and that

too, if he is pleased. or satisfied. ( Sakethuka krupai). A very

difficult proposition. Scriptures call this form as Bakhti

 

But, in modern days Bakhti is diluted and is handled by one and

all who has pen and paper or mouth.

 

 

 

And that too a portion of HIM as HE is endless

(bothways,,begining and end)

 

 

And that as per the wishes of the devotee

 

In other words this experirnce is endless and will

continue for ever endlessly (SATA PASYANTHI SOoRAYAHA....Nithya

sooris enjoy him endlessly)

 

So, in the vast space, without any time limit (past,

present or future) experiences of Nithyasuris (whom the laws karma

do not affect),MUKTAS who have got released from Samsara ( or got

away fom birth and death) to the extent or the way in which they

wish or understand are propable .

 

Is this correct ?

 

Another point to ponder,

 

If a begining is pointed out it can be relative

only.

But NoBODY KNOWS ..OLD RISHIS, PRESENT DAY SCEINTISTS

OR EVEN EMPERUMAN......THAT IS CALLED INFINITE.

 

So knowledge and Ignorance are related terms . Once

knowledge dawns Ignorance vanishes.

 

 

To gain knowledge authoritative scriptures or reliable

documents are necessary.

 

 

 

'Apourusheya" not by a poursha..... Pourusha sooktam=

deals with Pourusha that is

Lord, Emperuman, the creator. He is eternal,: Easvara, Chethana

and Achethana are eternal

and are infinite in number. He creates Leela Vibhuthi for his

recreation. The Achethana forms the Prakruthi and 'Sareera" for

the Chethanas. (Jeevathmas). The game is on. The goal is Chethanas

should worship him always. But, they fall prey to worldly

(prakruthi vikarangal) pleasures and forget the Lord. To correct

them Sastras..Rules and regulations..Veda. Vedhantham about

Brahman are revealed to Brahma ( they are already in existance)

So, this is passed on . No body made it. No human being or

Devatha made it. That is Apourusheya Hence, Vedas, Apourusheya

utterancs become the basic reliable document for philosophy. If

it is man made document it is suspicious to various forms errors

and mistakes etc.,

 

 

The Vedas now a days are avialable in printed form.

..withadditions,alterations, interpolations

deletions etc,. That is a different story.

 

This Adiyen' s loud thinking. Baghavatas may correct me

wherever Adiyen have gone wrong.

 

 

Adiyen Ramanuja Dasan T. Parthasarathy.