Treatment of Jeevathma after his encounters in Sorkam and Naragam

June 28, 2002

Adieyen has a basic doubt in the treatment of Jeevathma after his encounters in

Sorgam and Naragam. As per my understanding, a jeevathma goes to Sorgam and

enjoys the comforts there in direct proportion to the "Punniyams" in his

credit. Similarly he suffers in Naragam which is also in direct proportion to

the "Pavams" in his credit. Once this treatment is over, he has a zero balance

of "punniams" and "pavams" and he becomes eligible for moksham, if he realises

and practices the "Artha Panchakam". But my doubt is where comes the re-birth

of jeevathama again in this "leela vibudhi" as he now has a zero balance of

"Punniyams" and "Pavams" (They have been spent or compensated in Sorgam or

Naragam). Is it an oppurtunity provided by the emperuman to realise HIM and

MOKSHAM.

I request the learned members of this group to clarify the same.

Adiyen,

Varadarajan Ramanuja Dasan.

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June 29, 2002

Sri:

Srimathe Ramanujaya nama:

Dear sri varadarajan,

I thought I will share my little understanding on

this! I don't think there is pApa/puNya in our SriVaishNava

sampradAyam. Take the example of SisupAlan: he had such an enmity

towards PerumAL that he was doing japam on KrSNA but still PerumAL

granted him mOkshA. Acc. to prabhupAda's interpretation,it's because

of sisupAlan's nAma japam that he was granted mOkshA. But we don't

believe in that! We are of the view that if PerumAL wants to grant

mOkshA HE will,if not HE will not. Even when we choose Him,it's again

because of His mercy that we choose Him! We don't choose Him on our

own! We are mere tools! I was tempted to say something in relation to

charama slOkam but I could be wrong. I leave it to the scholars to

give better explanation.

If something is wrong in my interpretation,I request the devotees to

forgive and also correct me.

AzhwAr EmperumAnAr Jeeyar TiruvadigaLE saraNam

nappinnai

June 30, 2002

srImathE rAmAnujayA namaha

Namo NaaraayaNa

A jIvAtma goes to sorgam actually means taking birth in a higher realm and

narakam can be equated to lower realm. If we have a lot of positive karmA

accumulated, then we have the capacity to be born as a deva etc. But the

point to be noted is when we are born as a devata / lower being we will

still be accumulating karma (could be bad or good based on our actions) We

will be accumulating karmA whenever we take birth based on aur actions -

this is an inevitable rule according to our religion. Only perumAL has the

capacity (according to Sri Vaishnavism) to liberate us from this endless

cycles of birth and death. So having punyam / papam only determines the way

you are born.

It has been *my* understanding that going to sorkam and narakam doesnt

exactly mean exhausting our bad / good karma ... Its just that you get a

higher (could be a devata)/lower form of life (as someone in nether world)

depending on your karma and accordingly you undergo happiness (can be

equated to sorkam) and suffering (can be equated to narakam). And the

actions resulting during a birth, also adds karma. Hence it is good to

understand the purpose of life and try to get out of this endless cycle.

Learned members may please correct me here. Please pardon me for any

mistakes.

If someone could explain exactly what our elders meant by sorgam and narakam

it will be more enlightening. Thanks.

nArAyaNa nArAyaNa

>Dear Bhagavatas,

>

>Adieyen has a basic doubt in the treatment of Jeevathma after his

>encounters in Sorgam and Naragam. As per my understanding, a jeevathma

>goes to Sorgam and enjoys the comforts there in direct proportion to the

>"Punniyams" in his credit. Similarly he suffers in Naragam which is also

>in direct proportion to the "Pavams" in his credit. Once this treatment is

>over, he has a zero balance of "punniams" and "pavams" and he becomes

>eligible for moksham, if he realises and practices the "Artha Panchakam".

>But my doubt is where comes the re-birth of jeevathama again in this "leela

>vibudhi" as he now has a zero balance of "Punniyams" and "Pavams" (They

>have been spent or compensated in Sorgam or Naragam). Is it an oppurtunity

>provided by the emperuman to realise HIM and MOKSHAM.

>

>I request the learned members of this group to clarify the same.

>

>Adiyen,

>

>Varadarajan Ramanuja Dasan.

_______________

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June 30, 2002

SRIMATHE RAMANUJAYA NAMAH'

APPAN THIRUVADIGALE SARANAM

DEAR BAGAHAVATHAS,

Accept my pranams. Two postings on Karma, free

will and Nirhethuka krubai have been brought into circulation.

Adiyen would like to share my understanding with others. This

would be a long one. So part one is presented here. Any mistake or

misunderstanding may be pointed to Adiyen for correction.

The doubt of Sri. Varadharajan is ' why should a jeevan who has

spent all his Punyam and Pavams and has a zero balance take

rebirth in Leela vibhuti ? Is it to provide a chance to Emperuman

to realise HIM and to give him Moksham ?

2. The doubt of Venkataraman is ' Is there any "free will" in our

Sampradhyam ?

Has it been commented by our Poorvacharyas ?

How does it relate to the Lord's Nirhetuka krubai ?

The points raised in these 2 postings are worth

consideration.

Let us Consider first " Punyam and Papam".

It is the result of actions of jeevan. Any physical or

mental action is Karma. Thinking is mental Karma. Karma is the sum

total of our acts, both in the present life and in the preceding

births.

So, the results are not over in a single birth or many births.

If the actions of the Jeevan are towards earthly things, it will

never end. He will go on taking births for ever to endure his

actions. He may take birth in a good family after enjoying Swarga

or take birth as inferior births as animals , insects etc.,

The birth as a rersult of karmas are dependentn on the

balance of punyas and papas. The result of his deeds are stored in

his account "samcita" ( meaning stored up). The present one which

he under goes is known as "Prarabdha and the balance at his

credit after taking account of his present birth also, will result

in future births to clear off his account is Known as "AAgami".

In between Emperuman provides oppurtunities to the jeeven to know

and follow him. This faith does not fructify in a single birth.

It slowly developes, deep if the jeeva does not protest to

Emperuman's krubai. In the course of time the jeevan comes to a

position to understand that real pleasure is in doing Kainkaryam

here as well as in Nithya vibhuthi. ( Emperuman does not present

himself in person; but association with Sat sangam, doing good

deeds, avoiding bad deeds, avoiding prohibited deeds, Nama

sankeerthanam, worship etc., will lead the jeeva to understand

HIM and to avoid worldly pleasures.) In the course of time he

submits himself to a qulified Acharya and his Atma yatra will take

him to Moksham when it becomes ripe enough, in the opinion of

Emperuman.

In our Sampradhya Punyam and Papam are called as Emperuman's

"Anugraham' ( If he is pleased with jeevan's good deeds) and

"Nigraham" ( Emperuman's anger or discomfurture by the bad deeds

of the Jeeva).

Moksham in essence is leaving the Leela vibhudhi once for all

and thereafte there is no birth for that jeevan.

In defining Moksham there are difference of opinion. Advaitis

hold that jeeven on realisation that he himself is Brahman, he

merges in to the Brahman.

In Our Srivaishnavam Moksham is divided into 2 kinds. (1)

Kaivalya Moksham and (2) attaining Paramapadam.

In Kaivalya Moksham the Jeevan does not think of

Emperuman; but, it on realisation of its Atma swaroopam due its

various good deeds and understanding of the world properly it gets

away from rebirth and reaches a place outside samsara mandalam .

It dwels somewhere in the void; but, it does not reach Emperuman

as it did not want him. It remains there eternly enjoying

itself.

Those who have surrendered to Emperuman reach Paramapadam. One

set of people enjoy Emperuman as it is pleasent to them and to

Emperuman also. Other set people consider doing Kainkaryam to

Emperuman As it gives Pleasure to HIM ( Unakke Nam

Adcheyvom,,Marra nam kamangal Marru elor Em paavai)

Thenkalai Sect gives importance to Emperuman, Emperuman Only and

they feel Everything is Emperuman, of Him, for Him , by Him.

( To be continued....)

Adiyen Ramanuja dasan T.Parthasarathy.

On Sat, 29 Jun 2002 Varadarajan Sourirajan wrote :

>

>Dear Bhagavatas,

>

>Adieyen has a basic doubt in the treatment of Jeevathma after his

>encounters in Sorgam and Naragam. As per my understanding, a

>jeevathma goes to Sorgam and enjoys the comforts there in direct

>proportion to the "Punniyams" in his credit. Similarly he

>suffers in Naragam which is also in direct proportion to the

>"Pavams" in his credit. Once this treatment is over, he has a

>zero balance of "punniams" and "pavams" and he becomes eligible

>for moksham, if he realises and practices the "Artha Panchakam".

>But my doubt is where comes the re-birth of jeevathama again in

>this "leela vibudhi" as he now has a zero balance of "Punniyams"

>and "Pavams" (They have been spent or compensated in Sorgam or

>Naragam). Is it an oppurtunity provided by the emperuman to

>realise HIM and MOKSHAM.

>

>I request the learned members of this group to clarify the

>same.

>

>Adiyen,

>

>Varadarajan Ramanuja Dasan.

>

>Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup

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July 1, 2002

As per Adiyen's understanding, our pramanams say their is a "Sorkam" and

"Narakam". Yema dharmarajan is incharge of "Narakam" and Indra is incharge of

"Sorkam" and a Jeevathma temporarily "suffers" or "enjoys" in direct proportion

to his Pavam and Punniayam. I heard the concept of " A Jeevathma, temporarily

enjoying in Sorkam and once the tenure is over, the jeevathma will be pushed

onto the world" from U.Ve.Vellukudi krishnan's swamy upanyasam yesterday. So a

mere enjoyment as a state of Sorkam, i think, is not as per our Vishistadvaita

school of thought as per our Emperumanar Darsanam.

Again adiyen request the learned members of this group to throw some light on

this and correct Adiyen if some viewpoint is wrong.

Adiyen Ramanuja Dasan,

Varadarajan

Harini Raghavan <harini_r (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote: srImathE rAmAnujayA namahaNamo

NaaraayaNaA jIvAtma goes to sorgam actually means taking birth in a higher

realm and narakam can be equated to lower realm. If we have a lot of positive

karmA accumulated, then we have the capacity to be born as a deva etc. But the

point to be noted is when we are born as a devata / lower being we will still

be accumulating karma (could be bad or good based on our actions) We will be

accumulating karmA whenever we take birth based on aur actions - this is an

inevitable rule according to our religion. Only perumAL has the capacity

(according to Sri Vaishnavism) to liberate us from this endless cycles of birth

and death. So having punyam / papam only determines the way you are born.It has

been *my* understanding that going to sorkam and narakam doesnt exactly mean

exhausting our bad / good karma ... Its just that you get a higher (could be a

devata)/lower form of life (as someone in nether world) depending on your karma

and accordingly you undergo happiness (can be equated to sorkam) and suffering

(can be equated to narakam). And the actions resulting during a birth, also

adds karma. Hence it is good to understand the purpose of life and try to get

out of this endless cycle.Learned members may please correct me here. Please

pardon me for any mistakes.If someone could explain exactly what our elders

meant by sorgam and narakam it will be more enlightening. Thanks.nArAyaNa

nArAyaNa>Dear Bhagavatas,>>Adieyen has a basic doubt in the treatment of

Jeevathma after his >encounters in Sorgam and Naragam. As per my

understanding, a jeevathma >goes to Sorgam and enjoys the comforts there in

direct proportion to the >"Punniyams" in his credit. Similarly he suffers in

Naragam which is also >in direct proportion to the "Pavams" in his credit.

Once this treatment is >over, he has a zero balance of "punniams" and "pavams"

and he becomes >eligible for moksham, if he realises and practices the "Artha

Panchakam". >But my doubt is where comes the re-birth of jeevathama again in

this "leela >vibudhi" as he now has a zero balance of "Punniyams" and "Pavams"

(They >have been spent or compensated in Sorgam or Naragam). Is it an

oppurtunity >provided by the emperuman to realise HIM and MOKSHAM.>>I request

the learned members of this group to clarify the same.>>Adiyen,>>Varadarajan

Ramanuja

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July 1, 2002

SRIMATHE RAMANUJAYA NAMAH'

APPAN THIRUVADIGALE SARANAM

DEAR BAGAHAVATHAS,

Accept my pranams. The second portion

of the last posting is continued here.

"' If he realises "Artha Panchakam " and practises he become

eligible for Moksham.'.

True. But, that is not that much easy as it is said. First,

the knowledge about Self (AAthama swaroopam), second Knowledge

about Emperuman (Para Swaroopam ) and the relation between the

two and the Goal (Upeyam ), What is the difficulty in attaining

it ( Virodhi swaroopam) and the means to attain the goal (

upayam). To explain these terms it will take much time and space.

To make it short, Adiyen will explain as to why jeevathmas are

still toiling in 'Samsara'.

Sri.Krishna Bhagavan explains in Bhagavat Geeta, Chapter 7,

that his "MAYA' IS VERY DIFFICULT one to be ridden off by the

mankind who are made up of three Gunas, ie., Sattva, Rajas and

tamas. Those who submit themselves to him only can do with HIS

help. There are people who are foolish, and wicked ones . They do

not submit themselves to the Lord.

Four type of people submit themselves to him. They are 1) Who

want material welfare 2) those who want to regain the lost wealth

( these two types of people are known as 'Isvaryarthis'

3) Ginhjasu..(who wants to know him). and 4) Gnani (Who is after

HIM always and is not worried about material wealth). '

Isvaryarthis' are interested only to get worldly pleasures and are

apt to forget him thereafter. The third type Ginjasu, is after

knowledge only. But, the last type, Gnani is a true Bhakta and is

very dear to HIM. How many such people will be there ? For this

point also sri. Krishna gives the information in the same chapter.

verse.3.

Among the Adhikaris who follow Sastras one in thousand try to

understand HIM. ( Here Thousand does not represent numerical

value. it means many....many ) Among such people nobody

understands him truely (TATvathaha:) That means the number of

people who have reached the stage of getting out of samsara are

very rare. All are trying to understand him and are in various

stages of progress.

Now it can be seen Why jeevans are born again and again in

the world. The 'GOAL' ;ie., Upeyam.. is to attain HIM. For that

various sastras are there. Certain type of people alone can

undergo or practise such ones. And that too under very strict

various difficult conditions. Any mistake can spoil your effort.

Even after such hazardous process it is not certain or no

guarantee that you will attain him. Alternatively there is another

course. All can practise it. HAVE FAITH IN HIM . DO ALWAYS GOOD.

WHATEVER YOU DO, THINK THAT IT IS LORD'S wish and you are only an

instrument. If you are after HIM, do not desire for the results

of the actions ( the expectations of results will bind you to

Samsara.) Submit yourself to a qualified Acharya who will guide

you properly. HAVE ABSOLUTE FAITH IN HIM AND ACHARYA.

Adiyen hopes that the doubt of Sri. Varadharajan would have

been cleared.

We can consider the topics ' free will and Nirhethukakrubai

in the next posting.