Guest guest Posted July 3, 2002 Report Share Posted July 3, 2002 Please excuse my ignorance, but i still am left with a doubt. quote -------------------- Then kalai sect holds the view that Nirhethuka krubai is the grace showered on devotees by Emperuman without any condition Infact, He is the creator of the Leela Vibhuthi consisting of Jeevas and prakruthi.. HE desires that all jeevas should reach him in paramapada and enjoy just like Nitya suris. He is waiting for the consent of jeevas to redeem them from samsara. He waits patiently and try to create interest among jeevas about him by various means. He is all merciful, easy to approach to those who have faith in him. Having created interest in them He slowly developes it till it becomes mature enough to reach him. Prapathi is the intense desire on the part of Jeeva to attain peruman. We are all Srivaishnavas and have undergone amarayanam under one Acharya who will guide us in the Atma yatra. No seperate exercise is necessary to show our faith. --------------- unquote If the lord is waiting for the consent of the jeevas,doesnt it undermine our Tennacharya position that we have no free will.Or does it mean that we have free will but dont exercise our free will voluntarily after we accept the swatantrata of the lord and surrendering onto him?? In the later case, what the iskcon devotee said can be construed to be true since he himself chose vaishnavism of his own free will and now has surrendered to the lord. Also then, what the vadagalais claim is also not incorrect(that there is no difference betn our sects), since the jeevathma also plays a role in his salvation by consiously giving consent to the lord. Finally, does it all boil down only to the jeeva's conscious acceptance of the Lord's sovereignity and his dependance on the Lord for everything?? After that, the lord himself takes care of everything?? Begging to be pardoned for any incorrect observation on my part. Daasan venkat ramanan New! SBC Dial - 1st Month Free &; unlimited access Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2002 Report Share Posted July 3, 2002 SRIMATHE RAMANUJAYA NAMAHA; APPAN THIRUVADIGALE SARANAM Dear Venkat ramanan, accept my pranam. Kindly see Adiyen's Explanation. * If he exercises free will or free to choose as he likes it will end ineternal bondage in samsara." The exercise of free will relates to the course for Moksha or Paramapada.If your will relates for earthly things, you have the will. You should have the correct knowledge how to obtain it. you choose the correct one and with your effort do the necessary things. The result will be obtained in due time. This is the way for worldly life. Here, the object is Moksha,Paramapadam, Emperuman and Kainkaryam to Him.. ( Here the question of will is a misconception. If you understand the swaroopa gnanam that Jeeva is the servant of lord and his dharma is to do kainkaryam,excercising will does not arise atall. by using the will only, jeeva is toiling in the samsara) Who can give it ?. EMPERUMAN ONLY. All other deities are not capable of giving this. If you want Paramapadam and Kainkaryam also. Who can give this ? ONLY EMPERUMAN. ( In the case of Jeevan Mukhti, such jeevas will land in Kaivalya Moksham; because they have not asked for Emperuman and want to enjoy themselves only). We will move to the next step. Does Emperuman gives MOksham for mere asking ? Then everybody can easily get it. SARVAMUKTIPRASANKAM..That is not correct. Should we not be sufficiently qualified for that ? YES. What we should do ? There is Gnana, Bakhti and Karma Margas are prescribed inscriptures. We can do any one of this and please the Lord and obtain Moksha.This ia very difficult affair and getting Moksha is not sure. When we will get it also is not sure. Above all, the ELEMENT OF ' I' AND 'MINE' are associated here. We say OM NAMO NARAYANAYA' What does it mean ? "OM"..Pranavam ..Vedic Mantra containing lot of explanation. 'NAMO'-- 'Na'..negative connotation of MaMha: (MO). Mamah: means it is mine. NAMAH; Not Mine... Then whose it is ? 'NARAYANAYA'..Of Narayana.. So, Every thing belongs to Sriman Narayanan and not mine. So. the "AHAM 'AND 'AHAMBHAVAM' GOES AWAY and You accept the Lord Almighty. So When you accept this position ,your free will ( a mis conception)goes away and you realise your Parathantharyam and you need not toil for your redumption When you are the servant of Emperuman. The Lord will lookafter that. Infact,the contention of Then kalai sect is Emperuman is toiling to redeem the Jeeva from samsara . He prepares the jeeva or Chethana for the Atma yatra by creating a taste in him. The taste of almost all people is for worldly objects. To get this they pray or worship various deities. 'NATTINAN dEIVAM ENGUM NALLATHOR ARUL THANNALE KATTINAN THIRUVARANGAM UYVARKKU UYYUMVANNAM '( Thirumalai..10) ( He showed Thiruvarangam for those who are to be redeemed) AVARAVAR THAMATAMATHU ARI VARI VAKAI VAKAI AVARAVR IRAYAVAR ENA ADI YADAIVARKAL (Thiruvaimozhi.1.1.6) ' ODI YODI P PALA PIRAPPUM PIRANTHU MARROR DEIVAM PADI YADI PANINTHUM PALPADIKAL VAZHIYERI KANDEER' ( Thiruvaimozhi.4.4.7) All the subordinate deities are his creations.Those who exercise their free will choose the Deity they prefer. The result what they get are inferior to Kainkaryam to Sriman Narayanan in Paramapadam. But, to get the Emperuman, We need not, of our own will choose him. He creates a desire in us under some pretext , about him. We should acknowledge it. We shoud not be indifferent to that. That is what is required. Thereafter, that desire intensifies till maturity and Emperuman looks after that. The relevant Sutra of Srivachanabhooshanam are quoted below. 54. ITHU THANNAI PARTHAL PITHAVUKKU PUTTRAN EZHUTHU VANGUMAPOLE IRUPPATHONRU (The acts initiated of his own free will by the chethana to get Emperuman who always protects him is like this. How shameful it will be if a son ask his father that he should give guarantee in writing that he will protect him.. All along he has done that with out the son asking for it.) 60.'PALATHUKKU AATHMAGNAMUM APRTHISHETHMUME VENDUVATHU ' ( If Prapatti is not an upaya,should Chethana do something to get 'PALAM'? yES. The chethana should understand that he is under the protection of Emperuman and his servant. 2. He should be dependant on Emperuman ONLY. 3. He should not be indifferent to Emperuman's initiatives. This much is enough. The rest is with Emperuman) 62 'AAPATHAI P POKKIKOLKIROMENRU BRHAMITHU ATHTHAI VILAIVITHUKOLLATHU OZHIKAIYE VENDUVATHU. ( we should do somthing to escape from samsara. We should please the Lord and gain his favour. This kind of thought itself will land the chetahana in danger. It will result in swaroopa nasa. Our Swaroopam is to be dependant on Emperuman . We shold keep away from our effort in this regard. Emperuman will lookafter the chethana once he has acknowledged Emperuman's effort) 63.'RAKSHANATHUKKU APEKHSHITHAM RAKSHYATHVA ANUMADHIYE ( Chethana should consent to the efforts of Emperuman in the spiritual progress. Chethana need not do anything of his own accord) 70.'PRAPTHAVUM PRAPAKANUM PRAPTHIKKU UGAPPAVANUM AVANE ( Emperuman gets Chethana to Paramapadam. He only paves the way. It is HE who will be happay together with Chethana). 142. 'IVAN AVANAI PERA NINAIKKUMPOTHU INTHA PRAPATHI YUM UPAYAMANRU ' ( IVAN..= Chethanan; AVAN,= Emperuman'..Chethanas act to get Emperuman ie., Prapathi is not an upaya..ie., means) Then A Question arises. Why should Vedhanta prescribe some sastras for redeemption ? Answer : Sutras. 127. ' VEDHANTHANKAL UPAYAMAKA VIDHIKIRAPADIYEN ENIL 128. ' OUSHADHASEVAI PANNATHAVARKALUKKU ABHIMATHA VASTHUKALILE ATHTHAI KALASI IDUVARAI POLE ESWVARNAI KALANDHU VIDHIKIRAVITHTHANAI ' ( why Vedhantha should prescribe some sastras for redemption ?. It is just like mixing medicine / coating it with sweet for easy intake by the patients who will not like medicine directly.) These Sutras are only samples. There are more in srivachana bhooshanm dealing on this point. The crux is this. Jeevn is not independant. His LOrd is Emperuman who looks after him always. HE will look after the jeevan's redemption from samsara. If this fact ( swroopam ) is understood by the jeeva, he will not take any effort for his salvation. on the other hand if the jeeva decides or wishes that he also has some part to play, then he is not yet ripe enough to understand his real nature (swaroopam) even though he may worship Emperuman or some other deities. His own efforts are only hinderances. Your ISKON friend feels that he choose vaishnavism. Who is he ? Is he away from Lord ? When Lord has created him with his karanas( sense organs ) how can he claim that they are his and he has independant free will ? Is he not the servant of Lord Krishna ? Leave alone sriman Narayana for the present. Had he told you that Lord Krishna attracted him and He gave him the mind to join this movement that would have been the correct position. Anyway, he is in some path. This is the way Emperuman attracts the chethana and developes them. Your second Unquote.In the samsara only we feel great. We feel we have a will to do as we like. O.K. We can enjoy or suffer according to the result of our actions. But, at one stage the thought of God enters our mind. This God will be usued by us for our requirements. Later, philosophocal thoughts will occupy our mind. Further progress will reveal that samsara is usless; it is a mixture of plesure and pain. By this time we would have known that Brhaman (sriman Narayanan ) is the ONly LORD who created this leela Vibhudhi (samsara ) and there is another Nithya vibhuthi . HE IS THE SOLE MASTER OF ENTIRE THING AND WE ARE HIS SERVANTS. Does Servant has free will to choose ? in the matter of nearing his master. He should get appointment by following the proceedures. On the other hand , if the Masterhimself summons his dearest servant who always think of his master alone.... will it not be O.K? You have rightly arrived at the conclusion.. jeeva's conscious acceptance of Lord's soverignity and his dependance on the Lord. The position of Thenacharya is not atall undermined. The swroopa gnanam ( jeeva is the servant of Lord) puts this concept in exalted position. on the otherhand if human effort (jeevan's effort) is also to be considered in view of sastras,is it greater than Emperuman's will who imparted sastras? In this context Adiyen is quoting a verse (19) from Acharya Hrudhayam. SASTRIKAL THEPPA KAIYARAI POLE IRANDAIYUM IDUKKI PIRAVI KADALAI NEENDHA, SARAGNJAR VITTATHIL IRUPPARAI P POLE IRU KAIYAIYUM VITTU KARAI KURUKUM KALAM ENNUVARKAL. (sASTRIKAL..LEARNED PERSON OF sASTRAS.....SARAGNJAR; THOSE WHO HAVE FAITH IN THIRU MANTRAM WHICH IS THE ESSENCE OF ALL VEDAS.); Sastris believe in Sastras which reveal Brahman. They have faith in their effort and the belief in sastras. Their action is like persons crossing a river ( of samsara ?) holding a float in one hand and using the other hand for pushing the water. Whereas Saragnjar.. persons who have faith in Thirumantram and is conscious of their swaroopam (jeeeva is the servant of Lord) sits in the boat and makes no effort to cross except boarding the boat ( Lords effort). He is awaiting as to when the shore willbe reached. The very thought of 'human effort' reveals 'AHAM', AHAM BHAVAM' WHICH ARE ENEMIES to swaroopa gnanam, Adiyen have explained the position of Then kalai sect. Srivachan Bhooshanam, Acharya hrudhayam and Thiruvai mozhi contain enough materials in this regard. What Adiyen have showen as quotes is a trickle. You need not worry about mistakes, misconceptions arising out of ignorance. You can ask questions expressing yourself clearly so that doubts can be cleared. You are always welcome. Knowledge imparted is not lost. Now knowledge has increased only. Adiyen Ramanuja dasan. T.Parthasarathy. On Wed, 03 Jul 2002 venkatramanan krishnan wrote : >Dear Sri Parthasarathy swamin, >jai sriman Narayan > >Thanks a lot for the explanations on nirhetuka krupai vis-a-vis >the vadagalai school of thought . > >quote >---------------- >"' Free will ': If Sri. Venkat ramanan has mentioned the context >in which the topic"free will was discussed , it would have >been helpful to elucidate easily. However, the topic is dealt >with in general." >----------------------- >unquote >.The context in which i sought an explanation on the concept of >free will, was that the iskcon devotee (russian) claimed that he >himself consiously chose vaishnavism and that he could have >chosen anything and was still free to do so.He claimed it was a >matter of free will.Though he did contradict himself when he i >told him that it was Krishna who is responsible for everything,he >still refused to budge from his concept of free will. > > >Please excuse my ignorance, but i still am left with a doubt. > >quote >-------------------- >Then kalai sect holds the view that Nirhethuka krubai is the >grace showered on devotees by Emperuman without any condition > >Infact, He is the creator of the Leela Vibhuthi consisting of >Jeevas and prakruthi.. HE desires that all jeevas should reach >him in paramapada and enjoy just like Nitya suris. He is waiting >for the consent of jeevas to redeem them from samsara. He waits >patiently and try to create interest among jeevas about him by >various means. He is all merciful, easy to approach to those who >have faith in him. Having created interest in them He slowly >developes it till it becomes mature enough to reach him. Prapathi >is the intense desire on the part of Jeeva to attain peruman. We >are all Srivaishnavas and have undergone amarayanam under one >Acharya who will guide us in the Atma yatra. No seperate exercise >is necessary to show our faith. > >--------------- > >unquote > > If the lord is waiting for the consent of the jeevas,doesnt it >undermine our Tennacharya position that we have no free will.Or >does it mean that we have free will but dont exercise our free >will voluntarily after we accept the swatantrata of the lord and >surrendering onto him?? In the later case, what the iskcon >devotee said can be construed to be true since he himself chose >vaishnavism of his own free will and now has surrendered to the >lord. Also then, what the vadagalais claim is also not >incorrect(that there is no difference betn our sects), since the >jeevathma also plays a role in his salvation by consiously giving >consent to the lord. > >Finally, does it all boil down only to the jeeva's conscious >acceptance of the Lord's sovereignity and his dependance on the >Lord for everything?? After that, the lord himself takes care of >everything?? > >Begging to be pardoned for any incorrect observation on my >part. > >Daasan venkat ramanan > > > > > > > > >New! SBC Dial - 1st Month Free & unlimited access _______ There is always a better job for you at Monsterindia.com. Go now http://monsterindia.com/rediffin/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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