Guest guest Posted July 3, 2002 Report Share Posted July 3, 2002 Sri: Srimathe Ramanujaya nama: Dear Sri Parthasarathy, Excellent. I'm going to say a few things wrt "sahEtuka krpa" with the help of scientific knowledge,logic and common sense. > The main point of criticism of the vada kalai that " the denial > of human effort as a requisite condition of redemption would > amount to arbitrariness on the part of God ( arbitrariness and > cruely /Vaishamya and NairghaNyA ) We,with our limited knowledge, don't know each and every act of the individual soul in the present birth let alone previous births. This alone forfeits the individual to think that there is 'injustice' on the God's part! > ( In the example of infant awaiting mother's milk, it is argued > that effort on the part of child is necessary by sucking. STRANGE > !!!. SUPPOSE the child is not able to suck for one reason other > will the mother neglect the child ? Will she not feed the child by > force ? The excuse presented is not valid. Again, there are some > class of people who cannot practise sadhanas. Are these > people to be neglected by the Emperuman ??? ) Perfect. Even in this case(mother and the infant),the baby's effort (sucking)is nothing compared to the things provided by the mother. It's the mother who goes to the baby(not the other way),provides and feed the baby timely,even if the baby doesn't cry for milk,it worries her and tries to feed it,even if it cries for no reason(not of hunger),she thinks it may be because of hunger and so on. This baby (individual)can't say boastingly that "it has put a positive effort" which is .000000000000000000000000000001% which is 'null/zero' to the nearest approximation! What's the big deal about the individual's effort. SUdrAs and women are not allowed to hear/practise vEdAs. How can these people be casticised? In the eyes of God,all are eligible(with zero effort)to attain mOkshA. I think that's EmperumAnAr's darshanam and gItAchAryan incarnated as RAmAnujA to establish this fact only. One can give many life examples to invalidate the rquirement of "individual's effort" in seeking mOkshA! I love to give examples in fluid dynamics. If an expert and a non-expert in swimming are thrown into the ocean during tornaedo,both are going to drown. There is no doubt about it. The mighty ocean is not going to give any weightage for the guy who knows swimming. For the ocean 'both are same'. If by chance the two survive,it's only because of the mercy of the ocean! Just to illustrate this point,one professor who was an expert in Fluid dynamics was caught in the volcanic burst in the sea and he died. His pastime was to swim across the English channel,he would use all his fluid dynamics knowledge/skills to play with the water(this is a real story and not a joke). Whther/not the positive effort on the individual's part will fetch 'mOkshA' it will surely fetch ego in abundance! This constant thinking of positive effort by the individual will start accumulating "aham' and 'mama'. I would say that there is a logical flaw if one says that one has to put positive effort. Of course I don't know what Vadakalai school means by it exactly and "how much" of positive effort is necessary (can they give a quantitative figure). PS:The above is based on my small orbit of experience in life as a whole and any mistake is due to my ignorance. AzhwAr EmperumAnAr Jeeyar TiruvadigaLE saraNam nappinnai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 2002 Report Share Posted July 5, 2002 SRIMATHE RAMANUJAYA NAMAHA; APPAN THIRUVADIGALE SARANAM Dear Smt.Vaidehi, Accept my pranam. Your observations are O.K. Regarding Human effort and its recognition.: Let us think a while. Who are We? Did we create ourself or any thing that becomes available to us ?It is Emperuman Who created every thing and every thing is HIs. The mistake human being did is ( or shall we call it ... his human effort ? ) to get enchanted by 'Prakruthi'and the result is to get immersed in it from time immemorial. Ravana, Hiranya and similar ones believed in their human efforts, made many 'Thapsayas'and got conceited. The result is well known. Of course they wanted material welfare only and believed in their human effort. In the modern world many sceintific advancements are taking place, Replacements of human parts. It is removing these parts from one body and place to the another needy one. The existing thing ONLY one was utilised by the qualified persons. It was not created. Even a new one is invented it is manufactured from the existing materials only.. in other words regrouping of matter, created by Emperuman. Even the donor cannot claim it is my part that receipent is having. Performing the duties prescribed in the sacred texts...YES, do it with a sense of duty that they are part of Aradhana to Emperuman and 'I am bound to do it and I am doing it sincerely his commands and this is my 'KAINKARYAM'. Well, in this way you will never feel conceited and expect for a recognition. On the other hand when you do it with some expectation, say recognition, an element of 'I' and 'MINE' is ingrained in it. A scent of 'AHAM BRAHMOSMI' IS FELT. THIS DOES NOT BELONG TO SRIVAISHNAVAM. We call the recognition of 'I' and MINE' as 'Virodhi swaroopam.' which is to be eliminated. when you expect a recognition for your duty, you keep a distance from Emperuman Sri. Alavandar in his 'STotra Ratna' (53) says " When the knowledge that everything belongs to you and controlled by you has dawned in me, What can I submit to You ?" We need not expect any recognition. We are the servants of Emperuman and HE knows us very well.Our job is to do his commands and wishes and be happy with his satisfaction. Adiyen Ramanuja dasan. T.Parthasarathy. On Wed, 03 Jul 2002 vaidhehi_nc wrote : >Sri: >Srimathe Ramanujaya nama: > >Dear Sri Parthasarathy, > Excellent. I'm going to say a few things wrt >"sahEtuka >krpa" with the help of scientific knowledge,logic and common >sense. > > > > The main point of criticism of the vada kalai that " the >denial > > of human effort as a requisite condition of redemption would > > amount to arbitrariness on the part of God ( arbitrariness >and > > cruely /Vaishamya and NairghaNyA ) > >We,with our limited knowledge, don't know each and every act of >the >individual soul in the present birth let alone previous births. >This >alone forfeits the individual to think that there is 'injustice' >on >the God's part! > > > > ( In the example of infant awaiting mother's milk, it is >argued > > that effort on the part of child is necessary by sucking. >STRANGE > > !!!. SUPPOSE the child is not able to suck for one reason >other > > will the mother neglect the child ? Will she not feed the >child by > > force ? The excuse presented is not valid. Again, there are >some > > class of people who cannot practise sadhanas. Are these > > people to be neglected by the Emperuman ??? ) > >Perfect. Even in this case(mother and the infant),the baby's >effort >(sucking)is nothing compared to the things provided by the >mother. >It's the mother who goes to the baby(not the other way),provides >and >feed the baby timely,even if the baby doesn't cry for milk,it >worries >her and tries to feed it,even if it cries for no reason(not of >hunger),she thinks it may be because of hunger and so on. This >baby >(individual)can't say boastingly that "it has put a positive >effort" >which is .000000000000000000000000000001% which is 'null/zero' to >the >nearest approximation! What's the big deal about the >individual's >effort. > >SUdrAs and women are not allowed to hear/practise vEdAs. How >can >these people be casticised? In the eyes of God,all are >eligible(with >zero effort)to attain mOkshA. I think that's EmperumAnAr's >darshanam >and gItAchAryan incarnated as RAmAnujA to establish this fact >only. > >One can give many life examples to invalidate the rquirement >of "individual's effort" in seeking mOkshA! I love to give >examples >in fluid dynamics. If an expert and a non-expert in swimming >are >thrown into the ocean during tornaedo,both are going to drown. >There >is no doubt about it. The mighty ocean is not going to give any >weightage for the guy who knows swimming. For the ocean 'both >are >same'. If by chance the two survive,it's only because of the >mercy of >the ocean! Just to illustrate this point,one professor who was >an >expert in Fluid dynamics was caught in the volcanic burst in the >sea >and he died. His pastime was to swim across the English >channel,he >would use all his fluid dynamics knowledge/skills to play with >the >water(this is a real story and not a joke). > >Whther/not the positive effort on the individual's part will >fetch 'mOkshA' it will surely fetch ego in abundance! This >constant >thinking of positive effort by the individual will start >accumulating "aham' and 'mama'. > >I would say that there is a logical flaw if one says that one has >to >put positive effort. Of course I don't know what Vadakalai >school >means by it exactly and "how much" of positive effort is >necessary >(can they give a quantitative figure). > >PS:The above is based on my small orbit of experience in life as >a >whole and any mistake is due to my ignorance. > >AzhwAr EmperumAnAr Jeeyar TiruvadigaLE saraNam >nappinnai > > > > > > > > >azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam > > >Your use of is subject to > > > _______ There is always a better job for you at Monsterindia.com. 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