Guest guest Posted September 18, 2002 Report Share Posted September 18, 2002 Message: 10 Tue, 17 Sep 2002 21:47:26 +0530 "Padmanabhan" <aazhwar AchArya hridhayam >Does these qualities exist in all the five forms? namely para, vyuham, vibhavam,antharyAmi and archai? No certain qualities exist in each form but all the >qualities exist in the archAvatAram and hence, AzhwAr is attracted towards archAvataram to a great great extent. Not true. The Jayakhya Samita of the Pancharatra Agam establishes unique attributes to Sankarshana, Pradyumna and Vaasudeva who are the vyuhA avatArams. The Para avatAram is the very repository of Suddha Sattvam which is a quality. The ArchAvatAram is an mixture of excess of Sudhha Sattvam with prakriti. Refer AgamapramAnyam of Yamunacharya (purvAcharya of Ramanujar) for details. Regards, Malolan Cadambi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2002 Report Share Posted September 18, 2002 Sri: Srimathe Ramanujaya nama: Dear Malolan, What Sri PadmanAbhan said is very much true. Some information from Ramanuja's SriBhASya and SaraNAgati GaDya. The "five" forms of the Deity(As culminating in Ramanuja) are "para,vyUha,vibhava,antaryAmi,archa". Let's see what Ramanuja has got to say when he defends pAncharAtric system in SiBhASya! Five defining attributes of Brahman/Self(para form, hence paratva/Supremacy)-satya,jnAna,ananta,Ananda,amalatva SampUrNa sadguNyavapus(vyUha forms)- jnAna,bala,aishvarya,vIrya,shakti,thEjas The four vyUha forms are vAsudEva,samkarshaNa,pradhyumna,aniruddha SamkarshaNa-when jnAna and bala are manifested Pradhyumna - when aishvarya and vIrya are manifested Aniruddha - when shakti and thEjas are manifested Ramanuja uses the word "paratva" three times in SBh 3.2.35 and once in 3.2.37. and nowhere else he uses the term. His main aim was to refute Shankara's "nirguNa etc" Brahman. Ramanuja always confines himself to the point at issue. Ramanuja gives a detailed explanation for the first sUtra "aThAthO BrahmaginyAsA" alone(runs more than 100 pages). Ramanuja,in his defense of pAncharAtrAs,in SriBhASya mentions only three[Cf SBh 2.2.41]: "subtle"(sUkshma),the fourfold "division" of the Supreme reality(vyUha),and the manifestations in incarnations such as RAmA and KrSNA(vibhava). Ramanuja quotes ViSNu purANam(where these six kalyANa guNAs are stated) in SBh,to define the nature of BhagavAn,which play an important role in the doctrine of the vyUas in the pAncharAtra Agamas. "The Supreme Brahman,called vAsudeva,whose body consists of the complete(sampUrNa)group of the six qualities divides itself into the different forms of sUkshma,vyUha,and vibhava and He is attained in His fullness by the devotees who according to their qualifications,worship Him by means of works guided by knowledge. They teach that "from the worship of vibhava one attains to the vyUha,and from the worship of the vyUha one attains to the sUkshma,the Supreme Brahman,called vAsudeva" [sBh 2.2.41] The two forms of the Deity that Ramanuja doesn't mention in the section of the SBh,where he defends the orthodoxy of pAncharAtric system,are the "Inner Controller(antaryAmi)" and "Consecrated Image (archavatAra)". There are couple of reasons for this! Ramanuja assigns the same function to both the vyUha and vibhava forms(God assumes to enable His creatures to reach Him). All these forms have their unique qualities but in archAvatAra,you find all the qualities. This is one of the main theme of Ramanuja's philosophy(the source/cause producing the product/effect leaves the source "unchanged"). You don't see soulabhyam in "para" because he is inaccessible! You can refer to BG verses. The paratva and saulabhya are two extreme qualities(that's the beauty of R's theory!) Ramanuja himself particiapted in worship to the "image/archAvatAra" form of the Deity in temples and at home. Ramanuja quotes BG 4.11 which speaks of the Lord manifesting Himself to men in other shapes (archa form) than those of His incarnations,suggests that Ramanuja regarded consecrated images also as Dinine manifestations for the benefit of worshipers. Ramanuja paraphrases the Lord's statement as "although I'm beyond the grasp of speech and thought,I adapt Myself to those who follow My ways,in such a way that they may not only see Me but may enjoy Me with all their senses". Ramanuja mentions all the qualities(during his conversation with the archa mUrthy Lord SriRanganAtha)in the gaDyam while doing his prapatti to the Lord and that's why AzhvArs and also Ramanuja got attracted to the archAvatAram. Disregarding His Supremacy,out of His own gracious will(to liberate the souls),He stoops Himself low and takes an inanimate body and places Himself at the hands of devotees to feed Him,dress Him up etc...That shows His extreme soulabhya/accessibility(He doesn't lose His greatness/Supremacy by being accessible)which you don't find in any of the other forms. He is indeed "Jagathrakshakan". >From where did you get the defn of "archAvatAra" because Ramanuja doesn't talk about it in SriBhASya. This leaves room for people who do research in SriVaishNavism to ponder over Ramanuja's thoughts(why he did/didn't)! Can you please quote the exact passage/the sUtra no (so that I can cross check)? Note: Ramanuja uses terms like "sausIlyam" many times in SriBhASya but doesn't define those qualities. Ramanuja takes certain things for granted and assumes without defining them. His main concern was on passages which were under the attack of Advaitins/non-advaitins and those which needed clear clarification. That's Ramanuja's style. Best regards AzhvAr EmperumAnAr Jeeyar TruvadigaLE saraNam nappinnai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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