Guest guest Posted January 10, 2003 Report Share Posted January 10, 2003 Dear Fellow Bhagavatas, There has been a lively discussion on Devatantara bhajana[Devata-God; Antara-Different; Bhajana-worship. Eponymous words to Devantara are Bhashantara-Other languages; Desantara-Other countries; Namantara-Other names; Kalantara-Other times; Vishyantaras-Other interests etc.]. Purvacharyas have not approved. Sri Ramanuja's invocation of Devar moovulagum padaikka, Poovil naanmuganaip padaitta, Devan oruvarkkallaal,Poovum poosanaiyum tagume[errors in citation may be pardoned as I am quoting from memory] , while reclaiming Embar, sets the guideline clearly and unequivocally. People not steeped in Sri Vaishnava traditions would be troubled by the apparent ecumenical references in Divya Prabandham[Taazh sadiyum neel mudiyum, muniye naan mugane, avaa arachchuzh ariyai ayanai aranai agatri etc. and the orthodox line in Purvacharya vyakhyanas. Neeru sevve idak kaanil nedumaal adiyaar endru odum and kariya meni misai veliya neeru siride idum, periya kolat tadam kannan, have been interpreted as Neeru-anjanam, as against the meaning as ash in Tamil literature. Is it because of the time gap between Azhwars and Acharyas and the consequent changes in dctrinesal leanings? Pillai Perumal Ayyangar, a 17th or 18th century poet, was reputed to be a fervent Veera Vaishnava, but even about him Pulavar Puranam says, Sivanai nindanai seidavane ena Ivanach chirchil il'am saivar esuvaar Avan em Maayavan aagattil paadi endru Uvandu paadiya paakkalum ulllave When we come to Srimad Bhagavad Gita,we have to adopt the idiom acceptable to all Hindus. In XI:39-40, Arjuna says: Vaayuh agnih varunah sasankah Prajapatistvam prapitamahascha Namo namastestu sahasrakritvah Punascha bhooyopi namo namaste Namh purastat atha prishthataste Namostu te sarvata eva sarva Anantaveerya amita vikramastvam Sarvam samaapnotshi tatosmsi saravh Sri Aurobindo translates the two verses as below: "Thou art Yama and Vayu and Agni and Soma and Varuna and Prajapati, father of creatures, and the great-grandsire. Salutation to thee a thousand times over and again and yet again salutation, in front and behind and from every side, for thou art each and all that is. Infinite in might and immeasurable in strength of action and thou pervadest all and art everyone." To me, this translation appears to be lingustically correct[though I see the word sasankhah-moon is missed]. I understand from this couple of verses that God is omnipresent in everything. It is the culmination of the teaching at IX:39-42, which says, "Nothing moving or unmoving, animate or inanimate in the world can be without Me.I am the seed of all existences.There is no numbering or limit to my divine Vibhutis; what I have spoken is nothing more than a summary . Whatever beautful and glorious you see in this world, whatever is mighty and forceful, know to be a very splendour, light and energy of Me and born of a potent and intense power of my existence. But what is the need for a multitude of details of this knowldge? Take it thus, that I am here and everywhere, I am in all and constitute all; there is nothing else than Me, nothing without Me." It is possible to take a view that even by worshipping a diety other than Sriman Narayana, one is worshipping only God. There is a saying connected with Narasimhavatara, Toonilum iruppaan turumbilum iruppaan [He will be even in the pillar; even in a srap] There is also a prayer, Aakaasaat patitam toyam Yathaa gachchati saagaram Sarva deva namaskaram Kesavam pratigachchati [Like all rainwater from the sky going to the ocean, so all prayers to any God reach Kesava] Though I started with uncompromising adherence to "nindra aadippiraan nirka matrai deivam naadudire", I have started praying to Vinayaka, Subrahmanya and Garbharakshambika of Thirukkarugavur. I feel that this can be reconciled to Sri Vaishnava doctrine of supremacy of Sriman Narayana. I have presented my understanding of the matter for consideration. Adiyen siriya gnaattan,TCASrinivasaramanujan ===== T. C. A Srinivasaramanujan Email: tcasr Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2003 Report Share Posted January 10, 2003 Dear Sri Srinivasaramanujan Swamin (Uncle), adiyEn's praNams. Please pardon me for stating this, but I feel that there is a contradiction within the stance you have taken. If you do feel that Sriman Narayana (God) is within all, and you are already woshipping Him in a Vishnu temple, then what is the need to go worship Vinayaka and other dieties. After all any prayers that you make to them, you can make to Narayana and it would reach God. I am not saying that you have to go out of your way to avoid other dieties, but it seems contradictory that you feel compelled to worship them. Please clarify. adiyEn TCA Venkatesan --- Srinivasaramanujan TCA <tcasr wrote: > Dear Fellow Bhagavatas, > It is possible to take a view that even by worshipping > a diety other than Sriman Narayana, one is worshipping > only God. ... > [Like all rainwater from the sky going to the ocean, > so all prayers to any God reach Kesava] > Though I started with uncompromising adherence to > "nindra aadippiraan nirka matrai deivam naadudire", I > have started praying to Vinayaka, Subrahmanya and > Garbharakshambika of Thirukkarugavur. I feel that this > can be reconciled to Sri Vaishnava doctrine of > supremacy of Sriman Narayana. Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2003 Report Share Posted January 10, 2003 Sri: Srimathe Ramanujaya nama: Dear Sri TCA Srinivasa Ramanujan, Accept my pranams. True that all prayers reach Keshava. Lord very clearly says in BG that whoever worships Him in whichever form they desire,He appears to them in that particular form. But His divine feet is different from those of other gods. That's why He points arjuna to fall at His feet. Rainwater can not replace the ocean. We are all parts representing the whole(Him). A demi-god is also a part of Him. BG IX 39-42 shows omnipresence of Him. Offering prayer to the part is not the same as offering prayer to the whole. We have to see the qualitative and quantitative aspects here. When a person realises that "everything reaches keshava",he will only offer worship to that keshava. If worshiping other deities was justified,EmperumAnAr and our other AchAryAs would have implimented and practised. AzhvAr EmperumAnAr Jeeyar TiruvadigaLE saraNam NC Nappinnai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2003 Report Share Posted January 10, 2003 Sri: Adiyen would like to add few of my views in this case.. Adiyen learnt thru Upanyasams that even during Rama's period lot of people worshiped Devathantharams but for diff cause, they did it for the welfare of Rama, they Prayed to All Gods to protect Rama from evil eyes etc, Adiyen thinks this is out of premai. Secondly if you look into the sthala Puranam of Nangoor DD (Thiru Vun Purushothaman Koil) , One Rishi's son Upamanyu was in dearth of Ksheeram and was told by his mother to worship Siva(Pasupathy) to get Milk, because of the penance of the Kid, Siva Appeared before the Kid and showed him the "Ksheera theertham" available near by Thiru Vun Purushothaman Sannidhi and preached the Kid about the Lord's Guna's, then the kid did the penance for Him , then comes the Archa avatharam of Purushothaman. So on seeing the story we could observe that even Siva does the Purushakaram for the devotees. By any way I dont mean that we should select that path, as we have the lineage for the Purushakaram. Also as we came to know about our PoorvAcharyas commentary that its due to Andal's Ajnanam, Adiyen feels that this should not be seen with Logical eyes, instead with the eyes of Premai, this may be even comparable to Madal of our Thirumangai Alwar, as you know Alwar had breached the Tamil culture that Nayaki should not do the Madal, even in Peria Thirumadal Alwar himself says that he is following vadamozhi(sanskrit) culture Adiyen Ramanuja Dasan Guna TCA Venkatesan [vtca] Friday, January 10, 2003 11:29 AM ramanuja [ramanuja] Re: Devatantara bhajanam Dear Sri Srinivasaramanujan Swamin (Uncle), adiyEn's praNams. Please pardon me for stating this, but I feel that there is a contradiction within the stance you have taken. If you do feel that Sriman Narayana (God) is within all, and you are already woshipping Him in a Vishnu temple, then what is the need to go worship Vinayaka and other dieties. After all any prayers that you make to them, you can make to Narayana and it would reach God. I am not saying that you have to go out of your way to avoid other dieties, but it seems contradictory that you feel compelled to worship them. Please clarify. adiyEn TCA Venkatesan --- Srinivasaramanujan TCA <tcasr wrote: > Dear Fellow Bhagavatas, > It is possible to take a view that even by worshipping > a diety other than Sriman Narayana, one is worshipping > only God. ... > [Like all rainwater from the sky going to the ocean, > so all prayers to any God reach Kesava] > Though I started with uncompromising adherence to > "nindra aadippiraan nirka matrai deivam naadudire", I > have started praying to Vinayaka, Subrahmanya and > Garbharakshambika of Thirukkarugavur. I feel that this > can be reconciled to Sri Vaishnava doctrine of > supremacy of Sriman Narayana. Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus. azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam Your use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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