Question regarding Chanting of Vedas by women

[Guest guest]

Addressed to all the female members of the various groups

 

Respected Mother

 

This is a combined preliminary addendum to the points made by

various respondents. The writer once again thanks all for taking

pains to add to the knowledge for benefit of all.

 

The response of the writer is in brackets and underlined and

placed below the relevant comments by worthy bhaktas.

 

Please forgive the errors of the writer. No offense is intended.

If it seems some of the points are gender biased this is purely

co-incidental and not intentional.

 

 

This topic has been quite controversial over the past many years across

various groups, fora, philosophers, thinkers, religious leaders etc.

 

If the background base is always kept as the frame of reference then

everyone both man and woman would be able to appreciate the ground

realities

 

What is this background base ? VEDAS

 

The Vedas form the backbone of mankind's birth, life, death, after life and

the entire gamut of interplay in the universe. The Vedas are without end

or beginning, without any gender, invisible, eternally pervading,

ruthlesslessly neutral and ultimately are in 'Sound' form. It is said that

the Vedas precede even the Gods.

 

The human being's (man and women) primary duty even before Artha, Kama,

Moksha is to preserve and propagate the Vedas. In other words DHARMA.

 

Man and women have no other Duty other than this

 

If this primary duty is neglected, or diluted or compromised even a

slightest bit, then chaos starts, which is another word for KALI YUGA, the

present times in which we live.

 

How to preserve and propagate the Vedas whose form is 'sound' ? Simple.

Repeat, teach and evolve. Hence the oral tradition of passing on the

message, mantra, chanting, scriptures, knowledge to the next generation.

Daily blind repetition without even knowing the meaning was the first duty.

 

The Rishis got down to composing elaborate procedures and systems for

compliance with this diktat of the Vedas. This entailed tackling several

complex issues facing the Rishis of ancient lore:

 

1) The Vedic mantras are to be chanted in the same manner of chanting

in which they are learnt and there is no compromise allowed. The Vedas

prohibit any change. No human or God has authority to change this.

Therefore, the ancient Rishis through extensive Tapas and Yoga got divine

inspiration through the very ;'sound' of the Vedas and the message to

mankind was " ensure that the grammer, swara etc. are always kept in their

original pristine format as these are divine

 

The celestial carpenter Tvasta had a spat with Indra the king of the

Gods and without his Guru's help learnt a Vedic mantra composed of

certain syllables. The mantra had to be chanted in a particular and

specific manner. The brief meaning of the mantra was "Give me a son who

will be a slayer of Indra". However,. Due to a slight slip of the

tongue the mantra being 100% same, the intonation, pitch, inflection

while chanting got changed by 0.000001%. The entire meaning of the very

same words became " may Indra become the slayer of my son". !

 

This is because the Vedic chanting is double edged sword. The same

mantra can have different meanings for different purposes.

 

This implied that for perfect chanting, rigorous unrelentless training

was critical The person who is responsible for child-bearing therefore

cannot be expected to comply with this rigour and therefore, man was

chosen.

 

Even if a woman were to practice chanting and was able to sustain the

practice for long, if by mistake she made the wrong pronunciation, then

she would be harming her child, and maybe also cause damage to others.

Such extreme risks should be avoided

 

They codified these under the various subjects - details of which have

already been given by Shri Malolan Cadambi in his 28/1 reply.

 

2) Part of the Vedic command was that the mantras, chanting etc. should

be done full throated and in a loud voice for hearing at great distances.

Literally it has to be in a totally shameless fashion a roar. The reason

again was that the effect of sound to turn to benefit to mankind, the

sound had to be said aloud. In some mantras during homams the chanting is

done from the bottom of the pit of the stomach

 

Who, man or woman is fit for this job ? The man was chosen because women

had to bear the child and even by the most conservative estimate of

child-bearing once in a life-time, at least for 6 months during the

lifetime of the woman she would not be able chant loudly with the child

inside her.

 

3) To chant the Vedas perfectly meant that the person has to have good

physical stamina, sustainable over a long period. Why long period? Because

perfection requires practice and a minimum continuous practice of over 10

years. Someone had to therefore ensure that the Chanting population

maintained its stamina throughout the lifetime. And the someone had to be

from the same chanting category, not any outsider or stranger.

 

4) Further how to ensure continuity forever ? Everyone - man and woman -

had to contend with sickness, death, old age and other realities. The only

to ensure this was the procreation as designed by nature so that before

either or both die the next generation is there to take over the Vedic

mantle. This brought up the issue of child-bearing etc.

 

5) How to ensure safe, healthy long living progeny ? Who (man or woman)

is fit to be the vehicle for this requirement ? Whoever, either man or

woman was chosen then such a person will not be able to STRICTLY OBEY the

Vedic Law. Non-Obedience would invite trouble. So judiciously they

arrived at a decision taking a cue ( elaborated below ) from their source,

again, the Vedas. They decided that such a person (either man or woman)

who will take the burden of carrying the child - irrespective whether it

is a boy or girl will have to be Accorded a higher status to ensure that

such a person need not STRICTLY OBEY the words of the Vedas ONLY with

respect to chanting, repeating, propagating. However, the compromise for

such an relaxation would be that the person , will proactively and actively

and sincerely support the other opposite category i.e. if man is chosen to

carry the burden of pregnancy, then he is excused and he has to support

woman who will do FULL TIME CHANTING, CHANTING AND CHANTING,

SANDHYAVANDANAM, GAYATHRI AND REARING THE AGNI.

 

If women is chosen to carry the burden, then she is excused but she has

to support man in his duties.

 

Either way, man and woman were inter-dependent and one had to

necessarily support the

other who was busy in doing the Chanting.

 

In the end, the Rishis found that to meet all these stringent demands of

the Vedas, and since there were only two types of people. (a) male (b)

female some sort of solution had to be found because if everyone - man and

woman - STRICTLY OBEYED THE VEDIC DICTUM OF CHANTING then everyone - man

and woman - would have to say Gayathri, everyone - man and woman - would

have to wear the Upanayanam, everyone - man and woman - would have to do

the Sandhyavandanam forever, everyone - man and woman - has to sit in

front of the fire(Agni) for a minimum of 3 to 4 hours daily, everyone - man

and woman - will have to do over 25 samskaras, everyone - man and woman -

will have to do the Shrardam and Pitru works.

 

In such a case who will ensure that the food consumed by the chanting

people is pure, safe; who will ensure that the household of the chanting

members (everyone - man and woman - ) is looked after; who will care for

the children ?. Where is the support system to ensure this because only

a particular class of people could be involved EXCLUSIVELY for this special

job. Core competency was the key. Imagine in a family, if all the members

are involved in chanting with the same principles of the Vedas full time?

 

And since the Vedas had already declared that Gayathri is the starting

point and nothing can be done without Gayathri and Sandhyavandanam, no one

(male or female) could start Vedic chanting without these requirements.

Further the prerequisite for Gayathri and Sandhyavandanam itself was the

Upanayanam. In turn the primary requisite for Upanayanam was constant

ability to strengthen the body, mind, inner parts to have capacity,

capability, aptitude for learning, retaining, repeating, contemplating and

teaching Vedas - see above

 

Therefore, the person who was involved in chanting had to be segregated

from the rest of the people (both man and woman) and confined to a ghetto

called "agraharam" where the person is left to do the duty unhindered,

without any distraction, disturbance and problem. However, since the

person also had to have adequate body sustenance, the person should have

very good props or support systems to co-ordinate all infrastructure,

ward off problems, be the alter ego, literally the other half. Even now

there are orthodox agnihotris In villages who do not even take a sip of

water outside their house and do not eat any other food except those cooked

by their wife.

 

Some people might want to argue that this smacks of slavery of the serving

individual/category to the other, but this is a wrong notion. The farmer

helps cultivate the grain which I consume sitting in my office in

Air-conditioned. I pay income tax to the government who subsidize the

farmer. Whichever way one looks in this world there is one group helping

the other. Does it mean the helper is the servant and the helped the

Master? The master may be serving someone higher and so on. The chain of

inter dependence is innumerable. Everyone - man and woman - has to be

engaged in something worthwhile. So too one category was designated to

help the other in maintaining the sanctity of the Vedas.

 

The PARAMACHARYAR of Kanchi had a very good example for this EXCLUSIVE

notion. He maintained that "do we not take care of glass as

"fragile-handle-with-care-warning" when transporting? Why ? By the same

reason, should the Rishis not care for maintaining the purity and sanctity

of the Vedas ? Does this not warrant a distinctly separate, exclusive set

of people whose SOLE AND ONLY EXCLUSIVE PRESERVE WAS TO CHANT, CHANT AND

CHANT AND CHANT.?" Closer home, imagine what would happen if the Indian

Prime Minister or George Bush spent time in making sure their shirts are

properly washed, or ironed or their meal is properly done or their security

guard or the pilot all are appropriate and doing their jobs. They cannot

be disturbed. They have a different job while the support systems are

there to co-ordinate. Without the support the PM or George Bush will

collapse and will be an utter failure.

 

THE WRITER SINCERELY HOPES THE FEMALE BHAKTAS DO NOT TAKE THIS AMISS. THERE

NO DEGENERATION OF GENDER HERE. IT IS SIMPLY WHAT ROLE ONE PLAYS. EACH ONE

OF US HAVE TO DO SOMETHING TO BE ENGAGED. THIS SOMETHING IS A SUPPORT TO

ANOTHER AND VICE VERSA. THIS IS WHERE THE HINDU SYSTEM SCORES OVER ALL

OTHER SYSTEMS WHEREBY HIGHEST IMPORTANCE WAS GIVEN TO FUNCTION/JOB PROFILE

AND NOT THE COLOUR OF THE SKIN, MENTAL CAPABILITY, PHYSICAL CAPABILITY,

PERSONAL INTERESTS, GENDER ETC.

 

What would happen if such a via media is not take? then utter chaos. Any

other basis other than FUNCTIONALITY / JOB PROFILE /CORE COMPETENCY would

be unfair and biased.

 

By observation of what nature had already intended in the external,

internal, physical, physiological, psychological at all levels, the Rishis

found that man had physical / external capability for hard physical work

and his physical limits could also be stretched.

 

By contrast women were comparatively with a different disposition.

Especially, during the 3 monthly days, and also during pregnancy from the

4th month till the 13th month extensive rest, care, delicate physical,

mental, emotional handling had to be there. So women could not be subject

to hard physical Labour or their physical and mental limits stretched

beyond a point without damaging their internal organs and causing emotional

instability

 

THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT FACTOR WHICH ENABLED THE RISHIS TO FIX THE

TRADITION OF MEN CHANTING AND WOMEN SUPPORTING MEN IN THEIR JOB WAS THE

SANDHYAVANDANAM WHICH HAD TO BE STARTED AT 3:30 EARLY MORNING, EXACTLY WHEN

THE SUN WAS IN THE TOP AT NOON AND JUST BEFORE DUSK IN THE EVENING WITHOUT

LET, WITHOUT BREAK, FOR LIFE - The scholarly Shri Malolan Cadambi has

already elaborated on this in his rejoinder.

 

The category of person (either man or woman) who was excused for chanting

would also be logically excluded from the regimen of Sandhyavandanam. But

then why should such a person suffer just because nature has decided

something in their design ? What is the compromise which the Vedas were

offering ? Some solace ? some comfort ?

 

Once again the Vedas promptly came to the rescue of the Rishis. The Vedas

proclaimed Gayathri (FEMALE) IS the mother of Vedas. No one has heard of

anyone talk of Father of Vedas. So this without beginning, without birth

or without end entity called Vedas too has a source i.e. MOTHER a female.

 

And to chant the name of all gods, all beings, any Shloka, any chanting,

any prayer, any worship, suktha, veda parayanam, homam, any Shrardam, any

ceremony, any function, even before taking the permission of Vinayakar or

any god, the Supreme Mother's worship had to be done day in and day out.

 

And since it would seem incongruous and silly not to say the least for the

Vedas themselves to talk about Vedas, the Vedas sheltered under their

Mother, Gayathri and commanded everyone - man and woman - to reach the

Vedas only through their MOTHER. And since the MOTHER Gayathri is the

first mother there is no need for HER to chant her own name. A MOTHER by

her very stature commands respect and reverence while it is not mandatory

for her to show the same respect and reverence to others. Someone has to

be supreme and lead the crowd ? The CEO is the fit person. The CEO for

Mankind is the Mother of the Vedas the Gayathri. The rest of mankind who

do the bidding of the mother are the Clerks, workers, supplicants and

devotees.

 

Hence the common saying among Hindus "Mata Pita Guru Daivam". Guru and God

are also secondary to MOTHER

 

Therefore, the woman though not permitted to chant the Vedas is considered

not inferior but superior.

 

Looking at it from yet another view point we find that women are honored

more than the men folk so to say:

 

a) One of the names of Vishnu worship is called prominently

SriVaishnavism. The first word is Sri i.e. female. Sri is also the

prefix for Srinivasa of Tirupati, on whose chest rests the female. HIS

strength and locus standi is derived from Sri and not the other way.

 

b) The great Sankracharyars of Kanchipuram worship Kamakshi (female) as

a primary deity. Moreover, only for the Sankracharya status, the Seers can

see and bless anyone elder or younger, male or female, except the MOTHER.

Therefore, once a person is chosen by the Mutt to be the future pontiff,

has to give up among other things 'seeing' his mother forever. He may see

his father and the father may also meet him after his ascending the Mutt

throne. This is because He can bless his father as a human, and once he

ascends the Mutt seat he becomes impersonal to all, except his Mother. If

by mistake he sees his mother, he has to come down and prostrate before

her. Otherwise, all, even his own father has to prostrate before him. The

Sankracharyar will prostrate only before God and no one else. The only

human exception is his own mother. Hence his mother is forbidden to see him

and he is equally forbidden to see her.

 

c) Take the primary samskara for enabling the male child to start

chanting the Gayathri, the Upanayanam. The Upanayanam is done by both

parents. If unfortunately, the boy does not have a mother, then the father

alone cannot transmit the Gayathri mantra and perform Upanayanam in the

absence of his wife. Therefore, utmost care is to be taken to ensure the

safety, health, growth, well being of the women.

 

The father (male) is denied this privilege. So the supreme importance

is given to the Female/woman for mankind's welfare

 

THAT IS WHY DURING UPANAYANAM, THE VEDAS HAVE DICTATED THAT THE MOTHER

SHOULD BE PRESENT AND THE WOMEN OF THE HUSBAND ALONGWITH THE GURU, THE

CHILD IS PRESENT ENCLOSED INSIDE THE CLOTH. THE MOTHER REPRESENTS AT

THAT MOMENT GAYATHRI AND SUPERVISES THE WHOLE CHANTING TO ENSURE THAT

THE GURU AND THE FATHER ARE INDEED DOING THE CORRECT CHANTING. THAT IS

THE ONE AND ONLY TIME THE FEMALE HEARS THE GAYATHRI. THAT IS ALSO THE

FIRST AND LAST TIME THE SON DOES ABHIVADAM TO THE MOTHER AS HIS OWN

MOTHER PLUS MOTHER GAYATHRI. HE TELLS HER HIS GOTRA, HIS NAME, HIS

LINEAGE ETC. AND SHE ACCEPTS IT AND THEN DEPARTS OUT OF THE SACRED

ENCLOSURE TO HER ABODE IN HEAVENS.

 

WITHOUT THE WOMAN INSIDE THE SACRED ENCLOSURE, THE GAYATHRI CANNOT BE

TRANSMITTED AND THE ENTIRE PURPOSE OF VEDAS ARE RENDERED NULL AND VOID.

 

SUCH IS THE SUPREME IMPORTANCE GIVEN TO THE MOTHER

 

d) There were sundry reasons also for women being chosen for a different

calling. The Vedic chanting, Sandhyavandanam etc. were to be performed

bare chested. Most temple priests and pooja etc. are done with the torso

being left bare with the Sacred thread shown prominently. Also, since the

thread was considered Sacred, while attending to nature's call and on some

other occasions, the thread had to be worn differently in a safe manner.

Performing this while wearing a 9 yard saree with upper cloth etc. would be

somewhat unfair to women folk.

 

Women are therefore referred in Vedic parlance as "Dharma patni". There is

no word as "Dharma-pati". She is the wife of Dharma i.e.that which is

upright. She is the supporter of Dharma and since her opposite is engaged

in Dharma, she too is putting her bit and helping.

 

Coming to our modern day, can someone say why are there no women in the

fire fighting agencies, in military (there is a small percentage everywhere

in Western modern nations, but this is still a miniscule percentage as an

exception, not an active force to reckon); in oil rigs; in diamond mines;

as engine drivers; cab drivers; long distance lorry drivers; Not because

of some chauvinistic discrimination, but because these are not the natural

potentialities of women. Their forte as per the ancient Indian Rishis etc.

was in pushing, encouraging, urging man and children to the Vedic path.

Physically, they may be wife, sister, mother, but their real purpose is to

represent Gayathri to goad man to do his job diligently.

 

 

 

----- Forwarded by S Ramachandran/Custody/KamalaMills/HBL on 01/29/03 05:46

PM -----

 

Anand Iyengar

<malolakrupa@yah

bhakti-list

oo.com> cc:

Question regarding

Chanting of Vedas by women

01/21/03 04:09

AM

Please respond

to bhakti-list

 

 

 

 

 

 

Respected All,

Adiyen is not knowledgable enough(in anything), but

when it comes to vedas i have heard from several

people that women should not be chanting the vedas.

Adiyen does not intend to discriminate women or hurt

anybody's feeling , so i request the learned

bhagavatas to throw some light on this issue.

 

Dasan Anand

 

 

 

----- Forwarded by S Ramachandran/Custody/KamalaMills/HBL on 01/29/03 05:46

PM -----

 

Sowmya N V

<sowmya_nv@

bhakti-list

.com> cc:

Re: Question regarding

Chanting of Vedas by women

01/27/03 01:48

PM

Please respond

to bhakti-list

 

 

 

 

 

 

Namaskaaram Anand avargale

 

Only a woman who is interested in chanting the vedas

needs to know if she is entitled to do so ,and ,

moreover

If aeons ago ,women were not allowed to chant

mantrams , we possibly wouldnt have had a Andal

Tiruppavai now

 

Regards

Sowmya

 

 

 

----- Forwarded by S Ramachandran/Custody/KamalaMills/HBL on 01/29/03 05:46

PM -----

 

Anand Iyengar

<malolakrupa@yah

bhakti-list

oo.com> cc:

Re: Question regarding

Chanting of Vedas by women

01/27/03 08:03

PM

Please respond

to bhakti-list

 

 

 

 

 

 

Respected Sowmya,

I do respect your interest in chanting the vedas, but

i just wanted to understand what was the exact reason

as to why women were not allowed to chant them.

 

The thought just came to me as a result of my

curiosity , hence i requested the learned bhagavatas

to give me some insight into the underlying thought.

 

I am extremly sorry if adiyen has hurt the feelings of

any bhagavatas.

 

Once again adiyen re-iterates that "I do not mean to

hurt the feelings or intimidate any bhagavatas". I

just wanted to know the reason behind it if any.

 

Dasan,

 

Anand

--- Sowmya N V <sowmya_nv wrote:

> Namaskaaram Anand avargale

>

> Only a woman who is interested in chanting the vedas

> needs to know if she is entitled to do so ,and ,

> moreover

> If aeons ago ,women were not allowed to chant

> mantrams , we possibly wouldnt have had a Andal

> Tiruppavai now

>

> Regards

> Sowmya

>

>

 

 

 

----- Forwarded by S Ramachandran/Custody/KamalaMills/HBL on 01/29/03 05:46

PM -----

 

"SRIDHAR

RANGANATHA"

<bhakti-list>

<sranga cc:

m> Re: Question regarding

Chanting of Vedas by women

 

01/27/03 11:15

PM

Please respond

to bhakti-list

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dear Bhagavatas,

Sri Anand has raised an often asked question. AdiEn heard that Because of

Bramha dosham, women cannot chant vedas. Is it true? I request learned

Bhagavats in this list to throw some light on this.

dasan

sridhar ranganatha

 

 

-

----- Forwarded by S Ramachandran/Custody/KamalaMills/HBL on 01/29/03 05:46

PM -----

 

Sreenivas

Chakravarthy

bhakti-list

<kans_chakravarthy@y cc:

ahoo.co.in> Re: Question

regarding Chanting of Vedas by women

 

01/28/03 01:46 AM

Please respond to

bhakti-list

 

 

 

 

 

 

Namaskaram Ms. Sowmya.

I dont know the what made you to write this mail. But I dont find any

relationship between Andal's Tiruppavai.

The point that in those days ladies were restricted from learning and

chating vedas cannot be denied.

Infact, that could have been one of the reasons for Andal to compose the

Prabandam verses(which are called Dravida Vedam). But we cannot say that

Andal used to chant vedas and mantras. And chating of vedas has nothing to

do with Prabandams. If we go by your argument, then we would have not got

the prabandams of many Alwars since most of them are not Brahmins and in

those days only Brahmins were allowed to learn Vedas.

Regards

Chakravarthy

Sowmya N V <sowmya_nv wrote:Namaskaaram Anand avargale

 

Only a woman who is interested in chanting the vedas

needs to know if she is entitled to do so ,and ,

moreover

If aeons ago ,women were not allowed to chant

mantrams , we possibly wouldnt have had a Andal

Tiruppavai now

 

Regards

Sowmya

 

 

 

 

 

----- Forwarded by S Ramachandran/Custody/KamalaMills/HBL on 01/29/03 05:46

PM -----

 

"Sampath Kumar

<pbsampathkumar@

bhakti-list

>" cc:

<pbsampathkumar Re: Question regarding

Chanting of Vedas by women

 

01/28/03 07:28

PM

Please respond

to bhakti-list

 

 

 

 

 

 

Looking at this discussion going on back and forth in this issue, I

have approached a swamin at kanchipuram and heard the following.

If anything found to be an error it is due to my lack of knowledge

and nothing else. I also apologise in advance if this mail hurts

somebody.

 

Sastra's say that anybody without sambandam of Gayathri manthram

should not chant vedam. A person get the Gayathri sambandam by way of

undergoing Upanayanam. Upanayanam is performed only for men and not

for women, and hence this restriction.

 

In olden days caste system was classified into four categories namely

Brahmna, vysya, Kshatriya and Sudra. Out of the four the former three

caste had the practice of performing Upanayanam and chant vedas.

 

Moreover only a Brahmin can learn and teach veda whereas a vysya or a

kshatriya can only learn anc chant vedam and cannot teach vedam. If a

vysya or a Kshatriya want to learn vedam he has to come to Brahmna

Acharya, that is one of the reason Lord Krishna had to been

Sandeepani Maharishi to learn vedam.

 

I refuse the point raised by Sri Chakravarthi, that only Brahmnas

were allowed to chant vedam in those days. It is definitely not true

to the best of my knowledge. Only Sudras were not allowed to chant

vedam. I don't know on what basis he has told this. Even though we

cannot find real Kshatriya or a real Vysya today, still there are

some Kshatriyas and Vysyas undergoing the upanayanam ceremony. Alwars

have born in this world with the Grace of Sriman Narayanan. Hence

definitely Alwars could have composed this 4000 Divya Prabandam at

any cost.

 

 

 

----- Forwarded by S Ramachandran/Custody/KamalaMills/HBL on 01/29/03 05:46

PM -----

 

"Vijay Iyengar"

<vijay.iyengar@w

<bhakti-list>

ipro.com> cc:

Re: Question on women

and the Vedas

 

01/28/03 07:54

PM

Please respond

to bhakti-list

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi All,

 

I am the grand-nephew of Madabushi Gopalachar, who was a guru to

many. I had discussed the same issue with him. He said the reason for

women prohibited from chanting the vedas is the OMKAARA.

 

When one pronounces OMKAARA it should be from the NAABHI.

When OMKAARA is thus produced, a lot of enyzmes will be generated.

Of these Androgen will be generated more and this will lead to a good

well built masculine body. If this is generated more in women, they tend

to look more masculine.

 

Regards

Thuphal VijayaRaghvan

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

----- Forwarded by S Ramachandran/Custody/KamalaMills/HBL on 01/29/03 05:46

PM -----

 

"M.K.

Krishnaswamy"

<Oppiliappan>, "Bhakti-List"

<krishnaswamy@at <bhakti-list>

tbi.com> cc:

Re:

Question regarding Chanting of

01/29/03 12:25 Vedas by women

AM

Please respond

to Oppiliappan

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dear Bhaktas,

 

In this correspondence so far, there has beeen no direct quote from Vedas

itself that lays down an injunction against ladies chanting the Vedas.

What we know definitely is only that in the past, our ancestors were

following the practice of ladies being Saha-dharmini's only, assisting

their husbands in performing the vedic rituals.

 

There could be any number of reasons for the origin of this injunction

against ladies. What we have to consider however, is whether there is any

reason now to continue this past practice without reducing the sanctity of

the Vedas. Our Dharma follows the healthy principle indicated long

afterwards in the following lines of Tennyson in Morte d'Arthur:

 

Old order changeth, yielding place to new;

And God fulfills himself in many ways

Lest one good custom should corrupt the world.

 

Unlike other religions, Sanatana Dharma is a constantly evolving Dharma,

much like the perennial and purifying river Ganga, renewing itself

constantly and thereby continuing to remain fresh, current and pure. (It

is still pure in the upper reaches in the Himalayas, as those who

undertake the yatra to Badri will confirm!).

 

In the past, the custom might have been necessary and good, keeping in

view the living conditions which prevailed in those days.  So much has

changed since then and in such radical ways too. By opting for continuing

this old good custom, we might be denying the healthy development of

interest in the Vedas and the spreading of vedic teachings in the present

times.  Many ladies who have excelled in academic persuits and engaged in

public service are competent to study Vedic scriptures and contribute

their profound thinking on various issues. Why deny the Vedas that we

revere the active and dynamic support of 51% of the population and

restrict it to Males only many of whom, perhaps, fulfill only the

qualification based on gender. We need many more individuals of the

caliber of Gargi, Maitreyi and Andal to propogate Vedic teachings in this

materialistic-value-centered age and times.

 

Let us thank our ancestors for not prescribing a rigid, unchangeable

constitution in the Vedas and barring the ladies for all times.  For, if

they had done so, our religion could not be the unique sanatana dharma

that it is today -- with strenth and vitality that comes only through the

medium of change, enabling more of us to choose and travel on the path to

the changeless One.

 

Dasan,

Krishnaswamy M.K.

 

 

 

"KESHAVA B.

PRASAD"

<bhakti-list>

<keshavaprasad@sbc cc:

global.net> Question on women and

the Vedas

 

01/28/03 12:09 PM

Please respond to

bhakti-list

 

 

 

 

 

 

Harihi Om

 

As long as Srivaishnavas accept Sri Lakshmi, the consort of Srimannarayana

and Andal, one among the Alwars, as members of our lineage of Acharyas,

common sense should dictate that there is no logical reason to prohibit

women from chanting Vedas. The belief is perhaps, unfounded and purely

prejudicial.

 

The only drawback if one wants to call it that, is a personal observation

of mine which is, women's vocal chords are not designed to generate the

kind of tenre and deep sounds that experts say are needed in reciting

Vedas. It is only men who are likely to have these vocal characteristics.

My wife and I recite Suktas together sometimes and she feels humiliated and

will not be able to continue if I start with a style that I have learned to

recite the suktas. In deference to her, I have to subdue my own recitation

style and believe me that I will not have the satisfaction of having

recited the sukta well at the end of it. But that's life in 21st Century.

Since sounds, syllables, punctuation, accentuation and pronunciation are

big part of reciting Vedas, it will not be without reason to believe that

recitation of Vedas became a forte of men and women were out of the

competition!

 

This is only my humble opinion.

 

Adiyen Ramanuja Dasan

Keshava Prasad

 

----- Forwarded by S Ramachandran/Custody/KamalaMills/HBL on 01/29/03 05:46

PM -----

 

"Malolan

Cadambi"

<bhakti-list>

<cadambi (AT) hotpop (DOT) cc:

com> Re: Question regarding

Chanting of Vedas by women

 

01/28/03 10:33

AM

Please respond

to bhakti-list

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dear Members,

 

It is quite true that stree-s are not allowed to chant vedam. There is a

reason for this. As you know the veda mantara-s are made up of bIja, and

other parts. They have to be chanted within the strict rules of phonetics

(siksha). They have strict prosodies.

 

The mantara-s of the veda-s evolve from the nAda-brahman. Dr V Varadachari

has written about the nAda brahman in his book "Agamas and South Indian

Vaishnavism". As you would know, there are six chakras through which the

power of the brahman (sakti) is invoked through yogic practices.

 

The anatomy of a women is much different from that of a man. This is

scientifically true. I wrote about the chakra-s a few days back. You might

want to read about them here:

 

bhakti-list/message/17140

 

Given this fact, the Siksha or phonetics of a mantra cannot be invoked by a

stree. The chanting of the mantras is not a mere process of utterances from

the mouth. It involves much more than that.

 

However, as you would know there are exceptions to that. We had vedic women

seers like Maitreyi, Gargi et al. Please note that these sages are not just

mere humans like us, who now live in the dark age of the Kali Yuga.

 

Indeed, everyone can chant the stotra-s. Sriman Sadagopan Iyengar of

Coimbatore had written an excellent article about that sometime back. It is

in the archives.

 

Present conditions are something completely different. We would be better

off by understanding the rationale behind the practices of those times

instead of understanding the mud wallow that present day society is in now.

This is of course the case when are thoughts are within the parameters of

vedantic thinking.

 

There is a good article in this following website which seems to cover some

contemporary issues within the background of hinduism.

 

http://www.atributetohinduism.com/Women_in_Hinduism.htm

 

Just a thought: We would be better of discussing this topic in the

sv-general group.

 

Regards,

 

Malolan Cadambi

 

 

 

 

 

 

----- Forwarded by S Ramachandran/Custody/KamalaMills/HBL on 01/29/03 05:46

PM -----

 

"M.K.

Krishnaswamy"

<Oppiliappan>, "Bhakti-List"

<krishnaswamy@at <bhakti-list>

tbi.com> cc:

Re: Question regarding

Chanting of Vedas by women

01/29/03 12:25

AM

Please respond

to bhakti-list

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dear Bhaktas,

 

In this correspondence so far, there has beeen no direct quote from Vedas

itself that lays down an injunction against ladies chanting the Vedas. What

we know definitely is only that in the past, our ancestors were following

the practice of ladies being Saha-dharmini's only, assisting their husbands

in performing the vedic rituals.

 

There could be any number of reasons for the origin of this injunction

against ladies. What we have to consider however, is whether there is any

reason now to continue this past practice without reducing the sanctity of

the Vedas. Our Dharma follows the healthy principle indicated long

afterwards in the following lines of Tennyson in Morte d'Arthur:

 

Old order changeth, yielding place to new;

And God fulfills himself in many ways -

Lest one good custom should corrupt the world.

 

Unlike other religions, Sanatana Dharma is a constantly evolving Dharma,

much like the perennial and purifying river Ganga, renewing itself

constantly and thereby continuing to remain fresh, current and pure. (It is

still pure in the upper reaches in the Himalayas, as those who undertake

the yatra to Badri will confirm!).

 

In the past, the custom might have been necessary and good, keeping in view

the living conditions which prevailed in those days. So much has changed

since then and in such radical ways too. By opting for continuing this old

good custom, we might be denying the healthy development of interest in the

Vedas and the spreading of vedic teachings in the present times. Many

ladies who have excelled in academic persuits and engaged in public service

are competent to study Vedic scriptures and contribute their profound

thinking on various issues. Why deny the Vedas that we revere the active

and dynamic support of 51% of the population and restrict it to Males only

many of whom, perhaps, fulfill only the qualification based on gender. We

need many more individuals of the caliber of Gargi, Maitreyi and Andal to

propogate Vedic teachings in this materialistic-value-centered age and

times.

 

Let us thank our ancestors for not prescribing a rigid, unchangeable

constitution in the Vedas and barring the ladies for all times. For, if

they had done so, our religion could not be the unique sanatana dharma that

it is today -- with strenth and vitality that comes only through the medium

of change, enabling more of us to choose and travel on the path to the

changeless One.

 

Dasan,

Krishnaswamy M.K.

 

 

 

 

 

Sridhar Vasudevan

<radhas_sridhar@y

Oppiliappan, Bhakti-List

ahoo.co.uk> <bhakti-list>

cc:

01/29/03 06:57 AM Vedas by women

Please respond to

bhakti-list

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dear Bhagavathas,

 

Some relevant article indicate that women were responsible for composing

Rig Veda and until Manu's era women were undergoing upanayanam ceremony. It

appears that the practise were discontinued at some stage. Adiyen has been

evasive from a couple of ladies one from Auckland and one in Germany who

eagerly seek to learn Sri Suktam. And there seems to be increasingly more

women who would like to learn and recite vedas.

 

Do we follow the post Manu tradition or the vedic era?

 

We certainly need to have a very convincing answer to this? Who will be the

governing body who can issue a verdict on this issue?

 

http://www.womenexcel.com/education/eduwomen.htm reads as follows

 

The Vedic era (Before 200 B.C)

 

During the Vedic era, boys and girls had equal opportunities for advanced

education. The girls used to spend the early years of their life, like the

boys, in brahmacharya ashram after participating in the Upanayana Sanskara

ceremony. Upanayana (sacred thread ceremony) was required for the study of

the Vedas. Therefore, in the Vedic age, Brahmacharya discipline and

training was as much necessary for girls as for boys. If Upanayana was not

performed for a girl, then the girl would be reduced to the status of a

Sudra, and she could not marry. After the Upanayana ceremony, girls were

given the same education that was given to boys, but they were permitted to

quit early as they were expected to marry at the age 16 or 17.

In those days, women dominated teaching. Boarding school facilities were

available for girl students under the able protection of women. During the

Vedic period some women were so learned that they publicly challenged men

of letters and held their own in discussions on philosophical and

metaphysical subjects. Women took an active part in agriculture and in the

making of war weapons like bows and arrows.

 

Women and the Intellectual Field

 

Twenty-seven women rishis were responsible for the composition of mantras

for Vedas especially the Rig Veda. Some of them were Vishvarava Ghosh and

Apala Atreyi, Indrani, Kakhi Vati Ghosh, Surya Savitri, Dakshina Prajapati,

Vak Ambhireni, Ratri Bharadwaj, Gasha, Shrudha Kamayani, Yami Shachi

Paulomi, Sarparajni and Urvashi. The majority of the hymns in the Rig Veda

are dedicated to mythological beings and the personification of abstract

qualities.

 

Post Vedic period (200 BC- 1200 AD)

 

Manu, the author of Manusmriti, or the ancient laws, was of the opinion

that women were not eligible for the study of the Vedas, nor for the

reciting of mantras in performing sacraments, except in the case of

marriage. The nuptial ceremony was to be the only Vedic sacrament for

women. According to Manu, serving one's husband was equivalent of living in

the house of a teacher and receiving spiritual teaching. For women,

household duties were equated with yajna. Manu states that sacraments must

be performed for females so as to sanctify the body at the proper time and

in the proper order but without recitation of sacred mantras. The concern

apparently was that because girls were getting married early, they would

not be able to learn the mantras properly, and thus would make mistakes.

Earlier women were married at 16 and 17 but in this period the age of

marriage dropped down to 12. However, girls from rich and noble families

continued to receive fairly good education. Besides the study of Sanskrit

and Prakrit, they were given solid grounding in housekeeping and arts like

music, dance, painting etc. Educated women made a great contribution to

literature in this era.

 

<http://www.gurjari.net/ico/Mystica/html/gayatri_mantra.htm> reads as

follows also (This was also indicated by Sri. M.K.Krishnaswamy)

 

Rishinis or women rishis like Gargi and Lopamudra are said to have

undergone the Upanayanam and the former indeed, engaged in debate none less

than the law giver, Yagnyavalkya

 

Dasan

 

Sridhar Vasudevan

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

----- Forwarded by S Ramachandran/Custody/KamalaMills/HBL on 01/29/03 05:46

PM -----

 

S Ramachandran

sarangan

01/29/03 08:51 AM cc:

Re: Question on women

and the Vedas(Document link:

oppaliappan&kanchi)

 

 

 

 

could u be kind enough to locate the copy of this discussion and post it to

me ? thanks.rgds

 

 

 

 

"Shreyas

Sarangan

bhakti-list

<sarangan (AT) (DOT) cc:

com>" <sarangan Re: Question on women

and the Vedas

 

01/28/03 11:56

PM

Please respond

to bhakti-list

 

 

 

 

 

 

There was an discussion on this subject

last year in sv-rituals:

 

http://www.ramanuja.org/sv/bhakti/archives/rituals/apr2002/0076.html

 

 

-Shreyas

 

 

 

 

 

 

----- Forwarded by S Ramachandran/Custody/KamalaMills/HBL on 01/30/03 08:51

AM -----

 

"KESHAVA B.

PRASAD"

<bhakti-list>

<keshavaprasad@sbc cc:

global.net> Re: Question regarding

Chanting of Vedas by women

 

01/29/03 11:28 AM

Please respond to

bhakti-list

 

 

 

 

 

 

I whole heartedly agree with Sri Krishna Swamy that our Dharma has evolved

over thousands of years and should continue to evolve with the change of

times.

He is also, correct in saying that factual evidence from our scriptures has

not been presented as to why women are or should be barred from reciting

vedas.

 

I beg to differ with him however, in that there are no rigid rules in the

Vedas which could be far from the truth. There are rigid rules and so are

many rigid what one might call prejudices hard to get rid of.

 

Adiyen Ramanuja Dasan

 

Keshava Prasad

 

 

 

 

 

----- Forwarded by S Ramachandran/Custody/KamalaMills/HBL on 01/30/03 08:51

AM -----

 

Sowmya N V

<sowmya_nv@

bhakti-list

.com> cc:

Re: Question regarding

Chanting of Vedas by women

01/29/03 12:34

PM

Please respond

to bhakti-list

 

 

 

 

 

 

Namaskaram Krishnaswamy avargale

This has been by far the best mail reply i have

read in this group

In case you have a wife ,she is the luckiest in the

world , because she has by her side a man who knows

the real definition of equality ! And more importantly

lives by it

 

Regards

Sowmya

--- "M.K. Krishnaswamy" <krishnaswamy

wrote:

> Dear Bhaktas,

>

> In this correspondence so far, there has beeen no

> direct quote from Vedas itself that lays down an

> injunction against ladies chanting the Vedas. What

> we know definitely is only that in the past, our

> ancestors were following the practice of ladies

> being Saha-dharmini's only, assisting their husbands

> in performing the vedic rituals.

 

Your use of is subject to

 

 

----- Forwarded by S Ramachandran/Custody/KamalaMills/HBL on 01/30/03 08:51

AM -----

 

"Pradeep Janakiraman

<pradeepjanakiraman@

bhakti-list

>" cc:

<pradeepjanakiraman Re: Question on

women and the Vedas

 

01/29/03 10:54 AM

Please respond to

bhakti-list

 

 

 

 

 

 

Further to this, I also recall reading some recent news articles

about some parts in North-India where 'women priests' conduct

ceremonies such as marriage, upanayana etc.

 

I think times are indeed changing and there's equal opportunity

education and employment in these areas also.

 

But as far as I have heard or read, women are forbidden from reciting

or reading the vedas including the 'pranava-mantram'. By reading of

the puranas and the itihaasas they can attain to the same state or

better than their male counterparts. Also they can chant quite a

variety of mantras. By merely chanting 'rama-naama' they can achieve

moksham.

 

Sabari or more recently Meera did not read the vedas. All that they

knew were Rama and Krishna and they are held in higher regard than

someone who merely studied vedas in their times.

 

For women, I have heard that their "nitya-agnihotram", is their

cooking chores, their "nitya-karma" is taking care of the needs of

people at home and their "moksha-saadhana" could be reading of the

puranas and chanting simple yet invaluable mantras such as the "rama-

naama".

 

 

----- Forwarded by S Ramachandran/Custody/KamalaMills/HBL on 01/30/03 08:51

AM -----

 

"shosur

<shosur

Oppiliappan

m>" <shosur cc:

Re:

Question regarding Chanting of

01/29/03 10:27 Vedas by women

PM

Please respond

to Oppiliappan

 

 

 

 

 

 

Namaskaram,

Here is an answer I had received for Sri Chinnajeeyar Swami. My

question was put to rest by his answer and it might not be so to many

others. It also includes a answer why travel beyond the Seas were

forbidden in olden days.

 

You have asked for two things in connection with

Vedas. Vedas can be chanted in any part of the world,

expect in the grave yards. Of course, there are also

certain manthras which can be chanted there.

In olden days, there was no convenience to travel

fast, hence SAndhya etc.,activities could not be

possible. So they wanted not to travel. Now a days it

is possible to travel fast and also good food

facilities are available everywhere.

2. Ladies are not supposed to chant,for they are not

wearing Yajno:pavi:tha. If that has to be wore, they

need to practice Sandhhya 3 times a day, this is not

possible for them either. Their menstrual cycle will

be an obstruction to do that. As that performance is

not possible, they asked not to chant manthras with

Swaras. Yet, they can know the meanings and the other

discussions. AS you mentioned,Ga:rgi,, a great

theologist of olden days, argued with Ya:jnyawalkya,

in a very powerful manner. She was not a vedic scholar

but she was a Ve:da:nthi. Now a days, there are so

many of such kind among ladies. That is not wrong.

 

=chinnajeeyar=

 

 

 

 

Oppiliappan, "M.K. Krishnaswamy"

<krishnaswamy@a...> wrote:

> Dear Bhaktas,

>

> In this correspondence so far, there has beeen no direct quote from

Vedas itself that lays down an injunction against ladies chanting the

Vedas. What we know definitely is only that in the past, our

ancestors were following the practice of ladies being Saha-dharmini's

only, assisting their husbands in performing the vedic rituals.

>

> There could be any number of reasons for the origin of this

injunction against ladies. What we have to consider however, is

whether there is any reason now to continue this past practice

without reducing the sanctity of the Vedas. Our Dharma follows the

healthy principle indicated long afterwards in the following lines of

Tennyson in Morte d'Arthur:

>

> Old order changeth, yielding place to new;

> And God fulfills himself in many ways -

> Lest one good custom should corrupt the world.

>

 

> Unlike other religions, Sanatana Dharma is a constantly evolving

Dharma, much like the perennial and purifying river Ganga, renewing

itself constantly and thereby continuing to remain fresh, current and

pure. (It is still pure in the upper reaches in the Himalayas, as

those who undertake the yatra to Badri will confirm!).

>

> In the past, the custom might have been necessary and good, keeping

in view the living conditions which prevailed in those days. So much

has changed since then and in such radical ways too. By opting for

continuing this old good custom, we might be denying the healthy

development of interest in the Vedas and the spreading of vedic

teachings in the present times. Many ladies who have excelled in

academic persuits and engaged in public service are competent to

study Vedic scriptures and contribute their profound thinking on

various issues. Why deny the Vedas that we revere the active and

dynamic support of 51% of the population and restrict it to Males

only many of whom, perhaps, fulfill only the qualification based on

gender. We need many more individuals of the caliber of Gargi,

Maitreyi and Andal to propogate Vedic teachings in this materialistic-

value-centered age and times.

>

> Let us thank our ancestors for not prescribing a rigid,

unchangeable constitution in the Vedas and barring the ladies for all

times. For, if they had done so, our religion could not be the

unique sanatana dharma that it is today -- with strenth and vitality

that comes only through the medium of change, enabling more of us to

choose and travel on the path to the changeless One.

>

> Dasan,

> Krishnaswamy M.K.

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Sri:

Srimathe Ramanujaya nama:

Dear Sri Ramachandran,

Humble pranams to you. Your article is EXCELLENT. If some

females/women go for equality(with a feministic attitude like

chauvinistic attitude)with men in "everything" it only amounts to

stupidity and nothing else. Women are designed to do certain

activities and so are men. Those who don't understand this should

talk to some physiologists. One simple observation in men and women

is the arms. In the case of men,it's more straight and in women it is

not and this accounts for muscle stretchability during women's

delivery. Similarly all this vedic chantings(which has to come from

lower abdomen) would enforce a tremendous normal pressure on the

uterus and hence women may not be able to conceive or even if they

do,they may not be able to sustain the baby longer due to the

weakness of the uterus.

 

Scientifically one can give an example. If an aircraft,

which is designed to fly in air,lands into the water,the wings(which

generates the lift) will get ripped off instantaneously because water

pressure is 1000 times the air pressure and the aircraft can not

handle that pressure. We can give so many examples.

 

With my little knowledge I would dare to say that Vedas are

eternal(it is not a function of time). It accounts for all cases

(general and special)and doesn't matter whether one lives in

a "vedic" age(where vedas were given the highest respect)or in

our "so called modern" age. Hence one doesn't have to invent some new

system to account for some cases in 20th century. I wonder how anyone

can produce individuals of the calibre of ANdAL(I'm not sure about

the former two "gargi and maithreyi")as Sri Krishnaswamy mentioned.

It is only possible if ANdAL Herself comes down. I would like to

quote Francis Bacon(Shakespeare's contemporary):"some books are to be

tasted,some swallowed and some others are to be chewed and digested".

Vedas come under the last category. Without having such

training,passing comments randomly leads one nowhere except throws

one back into the circle of ignorance.

 

I was very delighted to read your article and heartfelt thanks

for writing such a big article and making the efforts to clarify some

of the subtle issues behind "why women can not chant vedas".

 

Best Regards

AzhvAr EmperumAnAr Jeeyar TiruvadigaLE sharaNam

NC Nappinnai