Guest guest Posted March 20, 2003 Report Share Posted March 20, 2003 Respected Sri Lakshmi Narasimhan, While Bhagavad Vishayam is amenable to a variety of interpretations, the meaning of Tiruva'imozhi 7-9-11 appears to be unequivocal about the method of recitation. Angane-accordingly Kandu-having found Ingum angum-everywhere Tiuma'l andr'i-except Sriman Narayana Inmai-nothing; Orayirattu - among one thousand Ippattum-these ten verses Sonna-as composed Ingane-in this way Van Kurukur Sadagopan-[by]Van Kurukur Sadagopan; Engane-in whatever way Sollilum-recited Payakkum-will give Inbam-pleasure The context points to the composition by Nammazhar. Adiyen,TCASrinivasaramanujan Submission on the following statement: "Engane Sollinum Inbam Payakkume" is for calling the lord. You can call him, scold him, praise him. Whatever one may say about him, it would always bring happiness to those who see it as a praising of the lord. So, even when Yasodhapratti scolded Shri Krishnan, it sounded nice to him. That is what is meant by Swami Azhwar's statement. Shri Andal says "Paasi thoortthu kidandha paar magatku pandorunal Maasudambil neera vaara MAANAMILA PANDRIYAM" - The mother earth was under the dust and the sirt and this guy(lord) showed up in the form of a shamless pig:) to rescue her! - This is what is meant by "Engane sollinum inbam payakkume". --- ramanuja wrote: > ------------------------ Sponsor > > azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam > > ------ > > There are 5 messages in this issue. > > Topics in this digest: > > 1. Re: Chanting of the Prabandham? Svami > Nammazhvar's words. > "nappinnai_nc" > <nappinnai_nc > 2. Re: Digest Number 47o > Srinivasaramanujan TCA > <tcasr > 3. Re: Re: Chanting of the Prabandham? Svami > Nammazhvar's words. > vimalkumar ranganathan > <panardasan > 4. Re: kooRudhumE, kooRuminE, kooRuvanE... > Vijay Triplicane > <vijay.triplicane > 5. Re: Digest Number 47o > "Lakshmi Narasimhan" > <nrusimhan > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 1 > Wed, 19 Mar 2003 14:47:49 -0000 > "nappinnai_nc" <nappinnai_nc > Re: Chanting of the Prabandham? Svami > Nammazhvar's words. > > Sri: > Srimathe Ramanujaya nama: > Dear Sriman Lakshmi Narasimhan, > With respect to "srirAma...varAnanE",it > doesn't matter > whether I recite the entire two > lines/conversation(I'm invoking the > name Srirama thrice) or just say "Srirama" > thrice,because Srirama(one > who delights the mind)name is > equivalent/comparable(thulyam) to > chanting sahasra nAma. That is the meaning of > "Ishvara uvAca". This > is like "prapatti" a short cut rather than the > circuitous and arduous > bhakthi yOga. Nobody denies the fact that it will be > much more > delightful to the mind when one knows the hidden > philosophical > meanings and chants with perfection. Since I have > been interacting > with Sri Soundararajan for quite sometime and > since(due to the desire > to chant and for the Lord)he wanted to correct > himeslf,he threw the > question in the list otherwise he would not have. > Your post seemed a > bit negative(discouraging tone)and you had also > mentioned that women > and sudras were not supposed to recite anything of > this sort(kO > Dharma: sarvaDharmAnAm bhavatha: paramO matha: | kim > japan muchyathE > janthur(all beings) janma samsAra banDhanAth ||)and > hence I replied. > Hope this clarifies. > AzhvAr EmperumAnAr JIyar thiruvadigaLE sharaNam > NC Nappinnai > > > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 2 > Wed, 19 Mar 2003 07:32:57 -0800 (PST) > Srinivasaramanujan TCA <tcasr > Re: Digest Number 47o > > Respected Srivaishnavas, > Regarding perceived errors in recitation of Divya > Prabandham, we are rightly reassured with citation > of, > > Eng'ane sollilum inbam > payakkume'[Tiruva'imozhi-7-9-11]. > I'du Muppatta'ra'yiram has an anecdote. During a > recitation by Araiyars in Srirangam, some desciples > commented on what they thought incorrect chanting. > Sri > Parasara Bhattar told them, > "Tangal' anba'rat tamdusol valatta'l talait talai > sirandu pu'sippa > [Tiruva'imozhi 9-2-8]. > [They chanted with their devotion ACCORDING TO THEIR > ABILITY TO EXPRESS] > Sri Bhattar stressed on the word TAMADU SOL > VALAM[their capacity to express] to allow for > individual variations. > I'd'u also says that the first line in Tiruva'imozhi > 7-2-2 > En tirumagal' ser ma'rbane ennum > Ennudai a'viye ennum > [she says He has Lakshmi in His heart; she says He > is > her very life] > is usually recited with pauses after ennum[will > say]; > once, it was recited without pause after ma'rbane, > making the meaning as > "She says He who has Lakshmi in His heart is her > very > life" > This elision is mentioned in I'du with approval. > The great Prativadi Bhayankaram Annangaracharya > Swami > has written that the line in Periyazhwar Tirumozhi > 4-9-2, > "Ennadiyar adu seyya'r seida're'l nandru seida'r > enbar > po'lum" > [Presumably He will say, my devotees will not do > like > that; but if they did so, they would have done the > right] > can be split as > "Ennadi? ya'r adu seyya'r? > [so what? Who will not do so?] > Adiyen,TCASrinivasaramanujan > Dr.Kilambi Ramakrishna Ramanuja Dasan > > vimalkumar ranganathan wrote: > > > Respected Adiyaars, > > > > I have a huge doubt. > Even though tamil > is my mother tongue, I still have issues in > understanding the meanings > of most of the Prabandhams. Well, if understanding > the > basic, flat > meaning is itself a problem as such, what about the > subtle, deep, > philosophical truth hidden in each verse of the > Prabandham?? > > > > How should one chant > the Prabandham?? Is > it ok, if he chants it without knowing the meaning > as > such. And what > about pronunciation mistakes?? Am I right if I say > that it is an offense > if we make mistakes when we chant the pasurams, as > it > is tantamount to > insulting the Azhwars?? > > --- ramanuja wrote: > > ------------------------ Sponsor > > > > azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam > > > > > ------ > > > > There is 1 message in this issue. > > > > Topics in this digest: > > > > 1. Re: Chanting of the > > Prabandham the best possible way > > "Rama Krishna K" > > <kramakrishna > > > > > > > ______________________ > > > ______________________ > > > > Message: 1 > > Sat, 15 Mar 2003 21:34:21 +0530 > > "Rama Krishna K" > > <kramakrishna > > Re: Chanting of the > > Prabandham the best possible way > === message truncated === ===== T. C. A Srinivasaramanujan Email: tcasr Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2003 Report Share Posted March 20, 2003 Shrimathe Ramanujaya Namaha Dear Shri Swami, Thanks for the explanation. Even if we take the word by word literal translation, Engane-in whatever way <-- Engane means HOW EVER and not whatever. As Smt Nappinnai pointed out, would mean, singing, or chanting or reciting or even shuffling of the ten pasurams(not reciting necessarily in the andhadhi order). But based on my little knowledge of tamil, I doubt whether it could be used as "even if it is wrong" or "with mistakes". Moreover, if we take the word by word translation, we see that Ahzwar is propogating that his songs would give happiness in whatever way it is recited - which would become a subjective discussion i.e from Azhwar's Perspective. That is why, I am afraid to take up a word by word translation. "Ingane Sonna Oraayiratthippatthu" does not literally mean these ten pasurams, but the contents and the meanings. And hence, "Engane sollinum Inbam Payakkume", seen from an Objective perspective, would mean, whether you tell in your own words, or use these words or shuffle or HOWEVER, the object would be lord Shriman Narayanan and hence it would give happiness - is what needs to be understood. Kindly correct me if I was mistaken. Please don't hesitate to point out my mistakes. I would be glad to correct them. Once again, thanks for the explanation. Yatheendra Pravanam Vandhe RAMYA Jamataram Munim Adiyen Ramanuja Dasan, Lakshmi Narasimhan ramanuja, Srinivasaramanujan TCA <tcasr> wrote: > Respected Sri Lakshmi Narasimhan, > While Bhagavad Vishayam is amenable to a variety of > interpretations, the meaning of Tiruva'imozhi 7-9-11 > appears to be unequivocal about the method of > recitation. > Angane-accordingly > Kandu-having found > Ingum angum-everywhere > Tiuma'l andr'i-except Sriman Narayana > Inmai-nothing; > Orayirattu - among one thousand > Ippattum-these ten verses > Sonna-as composed > Ingane-in this way > Van Kurukur Sadagopan-[by]Van Kurukur Sadagopan; > Engane-in whatever way > Sollilum-recited > Payakkum-will give > Inbam-pleasure > The context points to the composition by Nammazhar. > Adiyen,TCASrinivasaramanujan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2003 Report Share Posted March 20, 2003 Sri: Srimathe Ramanujaya nama: Dear Sriman Lakshmi Narasimhan & other bhAgavathAs, CAUTION:I haven't listened to any bhagavad viShaya. Accept my pranams. With my little knowledge in thamizh and analytical reasoning I would say that the word "enganE" also accounts for mistakes committed while chanting. Let us assume that it's only HOW EVER and not WHAT EVER as per your word. Even in that case,mistakes are allowed(the english word accounts for that. Sri soundararajan chanted NDP incorrectly;however the Lord enjoyed it- Dear Soundararajan,please forgive me for taking your case as an example:-)) and it does not harm the person who chants incorrectly nor does he have to do any prAyasciththam(it's like aShtAkshari). It is actually shaTakOpa but in thamizh we pronounce it as sadagopan even while chanting. When this mistake is allowed why can't other mistakes be allowed? Even when singing it,it may convey a different message because most singers(Rev. Balamurali Krishna and couple of others are exceptions)pause at all wrong places to maintain the "raaga". My father(who is very good in written and spoken telugu)cribs that my cousin(who is a disciple of the disciple of Sri Chemmangudi) spoils the beautiful meaning of thyagaraja krtis by splitting at odd places and my cousin says that it is done so(and very common)to maintain the raaga). Consider the famous krti with intense emotion (AbhEri) "nagumOmu ganalE ninajAli thelisi" (telugu speakers,please forgive my telugu) and many sing it as "nagumO mOganalEni najAli thelisi". One popular tamil musician(he may not know telugu) sings "bantu rIthi koluvu" as "pandu(fruit) rIthi" and we get a different meaning which is out of context. It is like putting a pause at the wrong place in Ramanuja nURRandhAdhi:7(pazhiyaik kadaththum irAmAnusan pugazhpAdi allA* vazhiyaik kadaththal enakku ini yAdhum varuththamanRE-- which would sound weird to the person who knows the in-depth meaning--instead of pazhiyaik kadaththum irAmAnusan pugazhpAdi* allA vazhiyaik kadaththal...anRE). In other words,in "HOW EVER" way also meaning can get distorted which is also a mistake. Even if one chants perfectly knowing the hidden meanings,in this mundane world/kali yuga, one can not say with 100% certainty that mind was only thinking about God and nothing else. So I feel that "HOW EVER" or "WHAT EVER"(with mistakes) way NDP is recited,the Lord still enjoys. But our intention should be to better ourselves wrt chanting it correctly(try to avoid mistakes as much as we can) with bhAva. Please feel free to correct me. AzhvAr EmperumAnAr JIyar thiruvadigaLE sharaNam NC Nappinnai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2003 Report Share Posted March 21, 2003 Sri: Srimathe Ramanujaya nama: Dear saha bhAgavathAs, Salutations to all. I'm forwarding Sriman Lakshmi Narasimhan's reply(he sent me a personal mail)and my response to it. Dear Lakshmi Narasimhan, I perfectly agree with what you say and I clearly understand that your intention was very good that we should correct our mistakes. My only contention is that one can learn by playing Sri MAV casettes(that's what I have)or if one can catch hold of a good bhAgavatha who is adept in reciting prabandham(I don't know how many are there in US and esp. near soundararajan's place and in my place there is no SV who chants NDP as in sEvAkAlam) and try to rectify one's mistakes and also try to learn the meanings of the pasurams from scholars who are expert in bhagavad viShayam. So we should encourage a person(even if commits mistakes) by helping him out to overcome the mistakes(by providing some methodologies like you,Sri TA Varadhan,Sri Vijay Triplicane, gave for kURudhumE,kURuminE...) instead of saying that he should wait for the right acaraya/pundit and until then nama japam should suffice. I learnt SriRanga gadhyam thro' MS casette and I can only chant that way but wrt sharaNAgati gadhyam I follow Sri MAV and I haven't yet memorised it completely but lot of words are similar to SriRanga gadhyam and hence I am picking it up faster. Though I know the overall meaning still I don't know the beauty of each and every word(I'm sure that gadhyam is endowed with such beauty). When I was reciting SriRanga gadhyam(without seeing the book)I didn't even know the overall meaning but the mere chanting used to elevate me(esp the name SriRanganATha about whom I'm crazy) but now I am much better and I surely love to learn(desire) the meaning of all these things from the learned scholars before I depart(HE has to show the green signal). But I would have been disappointed had someone told me that I should have known the meanings and chanted correctly without mistakes(fortunately in my case I have a flair for samskrt) if not I should have waited till I picked up the those skills. Only the Lord knows how many times I wonder "how emperumAnAr composed such a beautiful,impatient(to reach Him),flooding emotional poem in the form of prose(at jet speed) and how can anyone(some foreigners like Mr Lester and even some indian scholars like Dr. Agnihotri,follower of Sri Desika sampradayam) dare to doubt the authorship of gadhyathrayam when LakshmaNa/Ramanuja said "aham sarvam kariShyAmi"). I do agree completely with you that one has to improve oneself and avoid mistakes instead of giving some lame excuses. Mistake is a part of learning. A person who is in the pursuit of true knowledge and has the true desire for the Lord will surely rectify his mistakes and will be open to suggestions and advices from others. Even many telugu speaking people do not understand the telugu krtis. Once I happened to converse(in english) with one lady (who claims that her royal sima telugu is the purest)who was giving literal translation to another person about the krti "kshIra sAgara shayana" saying that "you protected the elephant(she doesn't know which elephant(gajendra/kavalayApIda) or the incident gajendra mOksham)and gave sarees to her("her" is also left unreferred)". I was shocked to hear the translation. Then I told her the meaning but she was not very happy about it(because non-telugu person giving meaning to the telugu person). Written language is different from spoken language and again it depends on the author(in what context he writes). It applies to me also. Altough I know tamizh I don't know the hidden philosophical meanings of the prabandham. I happened to listen to only one upanyAsam(last summer) by Sri Velukkudi Krishnan swami on the very first TVM and after hearing that I felt so ashamed of myself that all along I had been chanting those pAsurams without knowing the rich meanings behind it. Sri Velukkudi swami's upanyasam was so excellent that it had a different side effect on me. The desire kept the bhagavad viShayam on hold and instigated me to go for works, like SVB,Mumukshuppadi,AcArya Hrdhayam and thathva thrayam,about which I was ignorant. NOt that I clearly understand and practise them now! But surely I am more informed about our sampradayam now than I was six months ago. Initially(out of ignorance) I may even worship demi- gods or even tend towards other "isms" but when I become the beneficiary of His Grace and have the inquisitive mind to know the truth which can answer everything,surely I will avoid doing whatever I was doing previously with ignorance. You can correct me if I'm wrong about the following(as I have already explicitly stated my ignorance of bhagavad viShayam): NammAzhvAr asks PerumAL:why did not You come all these days and let me suffer. PerumAL:He just smiles and doesn't offer any expalnation(rather it is understood that PerumAL could not enter AzhvAr's mind or His grace was getting blocked at the receiving end) PS:Fundamentals(as against common notion)is "the" toughest and if one is very strong in the fundamentals no one can shake that person. People always say that "they do fundamental research" meaning "unfolding" the mysteries of the truth/universe. With this let us close this topic as we understand each other's intention:-) AzhvAr EmperumAnAr JIyar thiruvadigaLE sharaNam NC Nappinnai Lakshmi Narasimhan <nrusimhan wrote: Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha Dear Smt Nappinnai, Hope you are doing fine with perumal's grace. >It is actually shaTakOpa but in thamizh we pronounce it as sadagopan >even while chanting. When this mistake is allowed why can't other >mistakes be allowed? >From the literature perspective: This is not correct. Tamizh allows the mix of samskrutham. It has lots of words that have roots or just a copy of samskruth words. So, it cannot be treated as wrong. Moreover, ShaTakOpa, irrespective of the meaning, is a proper noun and as it goes across languages, it will have to change according to the limitations of that languange and this is not considered as a mistake. For example, "zha"(the 15th consonant in tamizh) is a letter that does not exist in english or any of the popular languages other than tamizh, and hence it cannot be pronounced as "zha" and that is why in english they equate it to "l" and hence Tamil. >Even when singing it,it may convey a different message because most >singers... Conveying different message to OTHERS, is not in question. What it conveys to the person who recites is what matters and that was the context. If I recite it wrong, it would convey a different meaning to me. So, the sooner I correct it the better. That is what I meant. And yes, there are lot of people, who, while singing the pasurams, do not group the words properly. And this is definitely wrong. For the sake of music, the meanings that the pasurams or any poem for that matter, should not be sacrificed. > Consider the famous krti with intense emotion > (AbhEri) "nagumOmu ganalE ninajAli thelisi" (telugu speakers,please > forgive my telugu) and many sing it as "nagumO mOganalEni najAli > thelisi". These are language barriers that I have explained in the first paragraph. These barriers have been accepted by those who care more for the music and less for the words whilst the fact is, this is wrong too. But who really cares? Everyone is involved in appreciating the ragas and the thalas and the aalapanais while there has been a decline in the percentage of audience who really care for the language and the meanings. Even amongst those who recite, Sahasranamam or any vedic hymns for that matter, tell me how many really understand the meaning and tell the same? How many tamizh people understand telugu kritis? But they appreciate the singers so well for singing as per the rules defined for the appropriate kriti's raga and thala. So, this is something completely different from what we are discussing. Once again, Lord does enjoy even if we recite wrong, but, my point(as I had explained pretty clear in my earlier post) was that we should find all the ways possible to learn/recite it right. If we don't take up the purist style atleast for the fundamentals, we would always be in circles and not go past milestones that we really have to go past in our sampradayam. And if we say, lord enjoys with whatever we say, we would end up being questioned like "if god enjoys with whatever we say, why do we restrict ourselves to azhwars hymns, why not any others" etc... Lord enjoys with whatever we say - is from the perspective of Azhwar - and to go to that level, we need to set the basics right. Once we reach that level of Azhwars(may or may not, is a different issue), we could say, whether we call him Narayana, or Siva or Brahma etc wouldn't matter. Philosophies have been deviced by those who have attained certain heights in spiritual levels or mental states etc. We should try to see them as role models and we should not try to see it from their perspective in the very beginning itself. If we say, Azhwar says "Muniye, Nanmugane(brahma), Mukkannappa(Shiva)", and hence we can worship brahma or shiva too, I don't agree to that. Azhwar/Acharya's perspective has to be learnt first. And by continuous practise of our sampradayam(I insist that we should do this, with the fundamentals being right), we would reach certain levels of spirituality and at that point, whatever we have learnt would make sense to the fullest. We all know that paramatma is the inner controller, but how many of us can really see him in everyone? Knowing that lord enjoys our mistakes too IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from what we have to follow. We must follow our sampradayam at our best. Last, but not least, I personally feel that, it is these small excuses that build up well and turn us away from the sampradayam. I feel that these small negligences have become a fort now(our parents, ancestors have built it) and hence we have so many Shri Vaishnavas(I include myself, just based on birth, but honestly, not yet, by qualities) who really aren't as those were visioned by our acharyas. That was the very reason why I immediately responded to Shri Soundararajan's question, but, my intent wasn't to demotivate those who are ignorant, at all. And because this is a group, it is a good idea to use the opportunity to post something that is really important for this generation of young Shri Vaishnava aspirants. One final point in the recitals. The technique that has been followed till date in our sampradayam is to MEMORIZE first(with or without meanings). So, while memorizing the same, care should be taken enough to make sure one recites it right. Later, the person, after some number of years of recitation, would start understanding the meanings naturally and once they go for a IDU kalakshepam or any other of that sort, it would hardly take some hours to grasp and retain the meanings of the pasurams from Azhwars' perspective. This technique has been followed from the Vedic learning tradition i.e one is supposed to MEMORIZE the vedas in the gurukulam with the knowledge of the karma kandam alone to some level at that point so as to perform the rituals etc. Once, the gurukulam is over, the person goes back to the family, gets married and performs the nithya karmas and other specific karmas as per the karma kandam and then when the person actually starts finding that the karmas give momentary pleasure/fruits (sitrinbam) then he starts the inquiry on the permanent pleasure/fruit (paerinbam) by reciting what he has MEMORIZED in the gurukulam as part of the BRAHMA KANDAM - and then(ATHA), due to that(ATHAHA), becomes BRAHMA-JIGNYASA, (JIGNYASA=GNYATHUM-ICCHA JIGNYASA) i.e a person who has the desire to have the knowledge of BRAHMAN. For this, the fundamentals, at whatever cost, has to be right. One can imagine, how catastrophic it would be, if that person does an inquiry on the BRAHMAN, based on what he learnt - that was WRONG(even a small mistake would lead to a completely different interpretation, let alone the viswamithra shrusti of the person who interprets it wrong even after learning it right! I apologize for my mistakes and my ignorance and if you think this needs to be forwarded to the group, please do so:) Yatheendra Pravanam Vandhe RAMYA Jamataram Munim Adiyen Ramanuja Dasan, Lakshmi Narasimhan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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