[sv-general] Why women are eager to do what sastras prohibit ?

[Guest guest]

The writer had on an earlier occasion given a detailed note on this...an

extract is enclosed. The sastras do not prohibit expressly but it is a

practical tradition.

 

Om Tat Sat

Tat tvam Asi

 

 

Addressed to all the female members of the various groups

 

Respected Mother

 

This is a combined preliminary addendum to the points made by

various respondents. The writer once again thanks all for taking

pains to add to the knowledge for benefit of all.

 

Please forgive the errors of the writer. No offense is intended.

If it seems some of the points are gender biased this is purely

co-incidental and not intentional.

 

 

This topic has been quite controversial over the past many years across

various groups, fora, philosophers, thinkers, religious leaders etc.

 

If the background base is always kept as the frame of reference then

everyone both man and woman would be able to appreciate the ground

realities

 

What is this background base ? VEDAS

 

The Vedas form the backbone of mankind's birth, life, death, after life and

the entire gamut of interplay in the universe. The Vedas are without end

or beginning, without any gender, invisible, eternally pervading,

ruthlesslessly neutral and ultimately are in 'Sound' form. It is said that

the Vedas precede even the Gods.

 

The human being's (man and women) primary duty even before Artha, Kama,

Moksha is to preserve and propagate the Vedas. In other words DHARMA.

 

If this primary duty is neglected, or diluted or compromised even a

slightest bit, then chaos starts, which is another word for KALI YUGA, the

present times in which we live.

 

How to preserve and propagate the Vedas whose form is 'sound' ? Simple.

Repeat, teach and evolve. Hence the oral tradition of passing on the

message, mantra, chanting, scriptures, knowledge to the next generation.

Daily blind repetition without even knowing the meaning was the first duty.

 

The Rishis got down to composing elaborate procedures and systems for

compliance with this diktat of the Vedas. This entailed tackling several

complex issues facing the Rishis of ancient lore:

 

1) The Vedic mantras are to be chanted in the same manner of chanting

in which they are learnt and there is no compromise allowed. The Vedas

prohibit any change. No human or God has authority to change this.

Therefore, the ancient Rishis through extensive Tapas and Yoga got divine

inspiration through the very ;'sound' of the Vedas and the message to

mankind was " ensure that the grammer, swara etc. are always kept in their

original pristine format as these are divine

 

The celestial carpenter Tvasta had a spat with Indra the king of the

Gods and without his Guru's help learnt a Vedic mantra composed of

certain syllables. The mantra had to be chanted in a particular and

specific manner. The brief meaning of the mantra was "Give me a son who

will be a slayer of Indra". However,. Due to a slight slip of the

tongue the mantra being 100% same, the intonation, pitch, inflection

while chanting got changed by 0.000001%. The entire meaning of the very

same words became " may Indra become the slayer of my son". !

 

This is because the Vedic chanting is double edged sword. The same

mantra can have different meanings for different purposes.

 

This implied that for perfect chanting, rigorous unrelentless training

was critical The person who is responsible for child-bearing therefore

cannot be expected to comply with this rigour and therefore, man was

chosen.

 

Even if a woman were to practice chanting and was able to sustain the

practice for long, if by mistake she made the wrong pronunciation, then

she would be harming her child, and maybe also cause damage to others.

Such extreme risks should be avoided

 

They codified these under the various subjects - details of which have

already been given by Shri Malolan Cadambi in his 28/1 reply.

 

2) Part of the Vedic command was that the mantras, chanting etc. should

be done full throated and in a loud voice for hearing at great distances.

Literally it has to be in a totally shameless fashion a roar. The reason

again was that the effect of sound to turn to benefit to mankind, the

sound had to be said aloud. In some mantras during homams the chanting is

done from the bottom of the pit of the stomach

 

Who, man or woman is fit for this job ? The man was chosen because women

had to bear the child and even by the most conservative estimate of

child-bearing once in a life-time, at least for 6 months during the

lifetime of the woman she would not be able chant loudly with the child

inside her.

 

3) To chant the Vedas perfectly meant that the person has to have good

physical stamina, sustainable over a long period. Why long period? Because

perfection requires practice and a minimum continuous practice of over 10

years. Someone had to therefore ensure that the Chanting population

maintained its stamina throughout the lifetime. And the someone had to be

from the same chanting category, not any outsider or stranger.

 

4) Further how to ensure continuity forever ? Everyone - man and woman -

had to contend with sickness, death, old age and other realities. The only

to ensure this was the procreation as designed by nature so that before

either or both die the next generation is there to take over the Vedic

mantle. This brought up the issue of child-bearing etc.

 

5) How to ensure safe, healthy long living progeny ? Who (man or woman)

is fit to be the vehicle for this requirement ? Whoever, either man or

woman was chosen then such a person will not be able to STRICTLY OBEY the

Vedic Law. Non-Obedience would invite trouble. So judiciously they

arrived at a decision taking a cue ( elaborated below ) from their source,

again, the Vedas. They decided that such a person (either man or woman)

who will take the burden of carrying the child - irrespective whether it

is a boy or girl will have to be Accorded a higher status to ensure that

such a person need not STRICTLY OBEY the words of the Vedas ONLY with

respect to chanting, repeating, propagating. However, the compromise for

such an relaxation would be that the person , will proactively and actively

and sincerely support the other opposite category i.e. if man is chosen to

carry the burden of pregnancy, then he is excused and he has to support

woman who will do FULL TIME CHANTING, CHANTING AND CHANTING,

SANDHYAVANDANAM, GAYATHRI AND REARING THE AGNI.

 

If women is chosen to carry the burden, then she is excused but she has

to support man in his duties.

 

Either way, man and woman were inter-dependent and one had to

necessarily support the other who was busy in doing the Chanting.

 

In the end, the Rishis found that to meet all these stringent demands of

the Vedas, and since there were only two types of people. (a) male (b)

female some sort of solution had to be found because if everyone - man and

woman - STRICTLY OBEYED THE VEDIC DICTUM OF CHANTING then everyone - man

and woman - would have to say Gayathri, everyone - man and woman - would

have to wear the Upanayanam, everyone - man and woman - would have to do

the Sandhyavandanam forever, everyone - man and woman - has to sit in

front of the fire(Agni) for a minimum of 3 to 4 hours daily, everyone - man

and woman - will have to do over 25 samskaras, everyone - man and woman -

will have to do the Shrardam and Pitru works.

 

In such a case who will ensure that the food consumed by the chanting

people is pure, safe; who will ensure that the household of the chanting

members (everyone - man and woman - ) is looked after; who will care for

the children ?. Where is the support system to ensure this because only

a particular class of people could be involved EXCLUSIVELY for this special

job. Core competency was the key. Imagine in a family, if all the members

are involved in chanting with the same principles of the Vedas full time?

 

And since the Vedas had already declared that Gayathri is the starting

point and nothing can be done without Gayathri and Sandhyavandanam, no one

(male or female) could start Vedic chanting without these requirements.

Further the prerequisite for Gayathri and Sandhyavandanam itself was the

Upanayanam. In turn the primary requisite for Upanayanam was constant

ability to strengthen the body, mind, inner parts to have capacity,

capability, aptitude for learning, retaining, repeating, contemplating and

teaching Vedas - see above

 

Therefore, the person who was involved in chanting had to be segregated

from the rest of the people (both man and woman) and confined to a ghetto

called "agraharam" where the person is left to do the duty unhindered,

without any distraction, disturbance and problem. However, since the

person also had to have adequate body sustenance, the person should have

very good props or support systems to co-ordinate all infrastructure,

ward off problems, be the alter ego, literally the other half. Even now

there are orthodox agnihotris In villages who do not even take a sip of

water outside their house and do not eat any other food except those cooked

by their wife.

 

Some people might want to argue that this smacks of slavery of the serving

individual/category to the other, but this is a wrong notion. The farmer

helps cultivate the grain which I consume sitting in my office in

Air-conditioned. I pay income tax to the government who subsidize the

farmer. Whichever way one looks in this world there is one group helping

the other. Does it mean the helper is the servant and the helped the

Master? The master may be serving someone higher and so on. The chain of

inter dependence is innumerable. Everyone - man and woman - has to be

engaged in something worthwhile. So too one category was designated to

help the other in maintaining the sanctity of the Vedas.

 

The PARAMACHARYAR of Kanchi had a very good example for this EXCLUSIVE

notion. He maintained that "do we not take care of glass as

"fragile-handle-with-care-warning" when transporting? Why ? By the same

reason, should the Rishis not care for maintaining the purity and sanctity

of the Vedas ? Does this not warrant a distinctly separate, exclusive set

of people whose SOLE AND ONLY EXCLUSIVE PRESERVE WAS TO CHANT, CHANT AND

CHANT AND CHANT.?" Closer home, imagine what would happen if the Indian

Prime Minister or George Bush spent time in making sure their shirts are

properly washed, or ironed or their meal is properly done or their security

guard or the pilot all are appropriate and doing their jobs. They cannot

be disturbed. They have a different job while the support systems are

there to co-ordinate. Without the support the PM or George Bush will

collapse and will be an utter failure.

 

THE WRITER SINCERELY HOPES THE FEMALE BHAKTAS DO NOT TAKE THIS AMISS. THERE

NO DEGENERATION OF GENDER HERE. IT IS SIMPLY WHAT ROLE ONE PLAYS. EACH ONE

OF US HAVE TO DO SOMETHING TO BE ENGAGED. THIS SOMETHING IS A SUPPORT TO

ANOTHER AND VICE VERSA. THIS IS WHERE THE HINDU SYSTEM SCORES OVER ALL

OTHER SYSTEMS WHEREBY HIGHEST IMPORTANCE WAS GIVEN TO FUNCTION/JOB PROFILE

AND NOT THE COLOUR OF THE SKIN, MENTAL CAPABILITY, PHYSICAL CAPABILITY,

PERSONAL INTERESTS, GENDER ETC.

 

What would happen if such a via media is not take? then utter chaos. Any

other basis other than FUNCTIONALITY / JOB PROFILE /CORE COMPETENCY would

be unfair and biased.

 

By observation of what nature had already intended in the external,

internal, physical, physiological, psychological at all levels, the Rishis

found that man had physical / external capability for hard physical work

and his physical limits could also be stretched.

 

By contrast women were comparatively with a different disposition.

Especially, during the 3 monthly days, and also during pregnancy from the

4th month till the 13th month extensive rest, care, delicate physical,

mental, emotional handling had to be there. So women could not be subject

to hard physical Labour or their physical and mental limits stretched

beyond a point without damaging their internal organs and causing emotional

instability

 

THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT FACTOR WHICH ENABLED THE RISHIS TO FIX THE

TRADITION OF MEN CHANTING AND WOMEN SUPPORTING MEN IN THEIR JOB WAS THE

SANDHYAVANDANAM WHICH HAD TO BE STARTED AT 3:30 EARLY MORNING, EXACTLY WHEN

THE SUN WAS IN THE TOP AT NOON AND JUST BEFORE DUSK IN THE EVENING WITHOUT

LET, WITHOUT BREAK, FOR LIFE - The scholarly Shri Malolan Cadambi has

already elaborated on this in his rejoinder.

 

The category of person (either man or woman) who was excused for chanting

would also be logically excluded from the regimen of Sandhyavandanam. But

then why should such a person suffer just because nature has decided

something in their design ? What is the compromise which the Vedas were

offering ? Some solace ? some comfort ?

 

Once again the Vedas promptly came to the rescue of the Rishis. The Vedas

proclaimed Gayathri (FEMALE) IS the mother of Vedas. .....

So this without beginning, without birth

or without end entity called Vedas too has a source i.e. MOTHER a female.

 

And to chant the name of all gods, all beings, any Shloka, any chanting,

any prayer, any worship, suktha, veda parayanam, homam, any Shrardam, any

ceremony, any function, even before taking the permission of Vinayakar or

any god, the Supreme Mother's worship had to be done day in and day out.

 

And since it would seem incongruous and silly not to say the least for the

Vedas themselves to talk about Vedas, the Vedas sheltered under their

Mother, Gayathri and commanded everyone - man and woman - to reach the

Vedas only through their MOTHER. And since the MOTHER Gayathri is the

first mother there is no need for HER to chant her own name. A MOTHER by

her very stature commands respect and reverence while it is not mandatory

for her to show the same respect and reverence to others. Someone has to

be supreme and lead the crowd ? The CEO is the fit person. The CEO for

Mankind is the Mother of the Vedas the Gayathri. The rest of mankind who

do the bidding of the mother are the Clerks, workers, supplicants and

devotees.

 

Hence the common saying among Hindus "Mata Pita Guru Daivam". Guru and God

are also secondary to MOTHER

 

Therefore, the woman though not permitted to chant the Vedas is considered

not inferior but superior.

 

Looking at it from yet another view point we find that women are honored

more than the men folk so to say:

 

a) One of the names of Vishnu worship is called prominently

SriVaishnavism. The first word is Sri i.e. female. Sri is also the

prefix for Srinivasa of Tirupati, on whose chest rests the female. HIS

strength and locus standi is derived from Sri and not the other way.

 

b) The great Sankracharyars of Kanchipuram worship Kamakshi (female) as

a primary deity. Moreover, only for the Sankracharya status, the Seers can

see and bless anyone elder or younger, male or female, except the MOTHER.

Therefore, once a person is chosen by the Mutt to be the future pontiff,

has to give up among other things 'seeing' his mother forever. He may see

his father and the father may also meet him after his ascending the Mutt

throne. This is because He can bless his father as a human, and once he

ascends the Mutt seat he becomes impersonal to all, except his Mother. If

by mistake he sees his mother, he has to come down and prostrate before

her. Otherwise, all, even his own father has to prostrate before him. The

Sankracharyar will prostrate only before God and no one else. The only

human exception is his own mother. Hence his mother is forbidden to see him

and he is equally forbidden to see her.

 

c) Take the primary samskara for enabling the male child to start

chanting the Gayathri, the Upanayanam. The Upanayanam is done by both

parents. If unfortunately, the boy does not have a mother, then the father

alone cannot transmit the Gayathri mantra and perform Upanayanam in the

absence of his wife. Therefore, utmost care is to be taken to ensure the

safety, health, growth, well being of the women.

 

The father (male) is denied this privilege. So the supreme importance

is given to the Female/woman for mankind's welfare

 

THAT IS WHY DURING UPANAYANAM, THE VEDAS HAVE DICTATED THAT THE MOTHER

SHOULD BE PRESENT AND THE WOMEN OF THE HUSBAND ALONGWITH THE GURU, THE

CHILD IS PRESENT ENCLOSED INSIDE THE CLOTH. THE MOTHER REPRESENTS AT

THAT MOMENT GAYATHRI AND SUPERVISES THE WHOLE CHANTING TO ENSURE THAT

THE GURU AND THE FATHER ARE INDEED DOING THE CORRECT CHANTING. THAT IS

THE ONE AND ONLY TIME THE FEMALE HEARS THE GAYATHRI. THAT IS ALSO THE

FIRST AND LAST TIME THE SON DOES ABHIVADAM TO THE MOTHER AS HIS OWN

MOTHER PLUS MOTHER GAYATHRI. HE TELLS HER HIS GOTRA, HIS NAME, HIS

LINEAGE ETC. AND SHE ACCEPTS IT AND THEN DEPARTS OUT OF THE SACRED

ENCLOSURE TO HER ABODE IN HEAVENS.

 

WITHOUT THE WOMAN INSIDE THE SACRED ENCLOSURE, THE GAYATHRI CANNOT BE

TRANSMITTED AND THE ENTIRE PURPOSE OF VEDAS ARE RENDERED NULL AND VOID.

 

SUCH IS THE SUPREME IMPORTANCE GIVEN TO THE MOTHER

 

d) There were sundry reasons also for women being chosen for a different

calling. The Vedic chanting, Sandhyavandanam etc. were to be performed

bare chested. Most temple priests and pooja etc. are done with the torso

being left bare with the Sacred thread shown prominently. Also, since the

thread was considered Sacred, while attending to nature's call and on some

other occasions, the thread had to be worn differently in a safe manner.

Performing this while wearing a 9 yard saree with upper cloth etc. would be

somewhat unfair to women folk.

 

Women are therefore referred in Vedic parlance as "Dharma patni". There is

no word as "Dharma-pati". She is the wife of Dharma i.e.that which is

upright. She is the supporter of Dharma and since her opposite is engaged

in Dharma, she too is putting her bit and helping.

 

Coming to our modern day, can someone say why are there no women in the

fire fighting agencies, in military (there is a small percentage everywhere

in Western modern nations, but this is still a miniscule percentage as an

exception, not an active force to reckon); in oil rigs; in diamond mines;

as engine drivers; cab drivers; long distance lorry drivers; Not because

of some chauvinistic discrimination, but because these are not the natural

potentialities of women. Their forte as per the ancient Indian Rishis etc.

was in pushing, encouraging, urging man and children to the Vedic path.

Physically, they may be wife, sister, mother, but their real purpose is to

represent Gayathri to goad man to do his job diligently.

 

 

 

----- Forwarded by S Ramachandran/Custody/KamalaMills/HBL on 01/29/03 05:46

PM -----

 

Anand Iyengar

<malolakrupa@yah To:

bhakti-list

oo.com> cc:

Question regarding

Chanting of Vedas by women

01/21/03 04:09

AM

Please respond

to bhakti-list

 

 

 

 

 

 

Respected All,

Adiyen is not knowledgable enough(in anything), but

when it comes to vedas i have heard from several

people that women should not be chanting the vedas.

Adiyen does not intend to discriminate women or hurt

anybody's feeling , so i request the learned

bhagavatas to throw some light on this issue.

 

Dasan Anand

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Rama Krishna K"

<kramakrishna@bhe nappinnai_nc,

ramanuja,

lrnd.co.in> ,

,

sv-general,

bhakti-list

03/28/20 03:34 PM cc:

Please respond to [sv-general] Why women

are eager to do what

sv-general sastras prohibit ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Priya Bhagawatas,

Asmadsrigurubhyonamaha!!

Srimathaynarayanayanamaha!!!

With reference to the following email Adiyen would like to put forth

some points to ponder

--\

-----------------

 

 

Message: 1

Tue, 04 Feb 2003 15:34:35 -0000

"nappinnai_nc <nappinnai_nc"

<nappinnai_nc

women and prabandham

Sri:

Srimathe Ramanujaya nama:

Dear saha bhAgavathAs,

Salutations to all. Keeping vedas aside,let us take

prabandham. Both men and women may ask why women don't participate in

prabandham ghoshti. In ThiruvaiyARu Thyagaraja ArAdhana festival both

male and female singers sing pancarathnam. So why not prabandham?

What is the reason behind it? I will post an article based on my

observation(music). Would like to know what other readers have got to

say.

AzhvAr EmperumAnAr Jeeyar ThiruvadigaLE sharaNam

NC Nappinnai

--\

-----------------

 

 

When similar question was posed to the Jeeyar swamiji, we were told

that first of all we should ensure whether what all are supposed to do

especially the male members of the so called vedic community are really

doing, like Yagnopaveethadharana, sikha dharana, Trikala

sandhyavandanam, nitya Tiruvaaradhana, observance of Azhwar/Acharya

Tirunakshatram, Itihaasa Paarayanam, Srimadbhagawadgita parayanam etc.

to achieve supreme bliss for one and all After ensuring that all the

vedic community without an exception are doing what they are supposed to

do cent per cent, then we can come to the subject how other sections of

the people should do what they are not supposed to do.

 

Coming to the subject of women in Sanskrit/Dravida veda parayana

goshtis, His Holiness told that when sastras are granting women

everything without doing such veda parayanam but just supporting the

rest of the family/society to comply with vedic rituals, why they

should be so eager to do first hand rituals what sastras prohibit

especially in this kaliyuga?

 

>From common sense point of view putting forth the bare facts, every

member of the vedic community, especially members of this type of forums

recognize the fact that women in periods get 'asuchi' and not eligible

to participate in auspicious rituals like veda parayanam or

Bhagawadaaradhana. It is also known that the periods (total number days

of 'asuchi' extends to

4- 5 in general) not only do not come accurately but also come sometimes

unnoticeably. Thus, if our sastras pertaining to the kaliyuga did not

bar women from veda parayanam, Bhagawadaraadhana, sandhyavandanam etc,

then women participating in goshtis of prabandha parayanam or vedic

rituals either may have to walk out immediately noticing the outcome of

periods; or sometimes it may become too late and the whole vedic ritual

might have got already contaminated. Thus our sastras which always have

a long foresight, might have formulated some prohibitions to avoid

unwarranted/ugly situations. Thus one can visualize what all the

problems the vedic rituals might have to face if there is no bar at all

on the participants.

 

This would not have been the case in tretayuga or kritayuga where the

physicial characteristics of people are far different from kaliyuga

regarding age, growth, strengths, physcial controls etc.

 

Jai Srimannarayana

 

Dr.Kilambi Ramakrishna Ramanuja Dasan

 

 

 

 

Your use of is subject to

[Guest guest]

Sri:

Srimathe Ramanujaya nama:

Srimad Vara Vara Munaye nama:

 

Dear Sri Ramachandran,

Your article is very good but it does not

account for special cases. I have expressed my comments on your post

and kindly reject the same if it does not apply. Also please forgive

me if my reply,anywhere sounded rude.

 

> What is this background base ? VEDAS

> The Vedas form the backbone of mankind's birth, life, death, after

> life and the entire gamut of interplay in the universe. The

> Vedas are without end or beginning, without any gender,

> invisible, eternally pervading,ruthlesslessly neutral and

> ultimately are in 'Sound' form. It is said that the Vedas precede

> even the Gods.

 

Agree to all with the exception of the last statement. You're in deep

trouble if you make a statement that vedas precede even the Gods. BTW

which Gods are you talking about? One can not talk about any God

other than Sriman Narayana whose vital breath is vedas(guys expert in

puruSha sUktham clarify). So they(vedas and the Lord) co-exist.

You had mentioned that Vedas are eternal without a beginning and an

end. In another place you write gAyathri as the starting point of

vedas, which is beginningless to use your own words,thus by

contradicting your own statement. First of all it is only Narayana

manthram(and no other manthram)which is equivalent to the vedas(in

layman's words it is Narayana who is the veda and veda is Narayana

due to the fact that the two are inseparable and also vedas being the

vital breath of Narayana). Gayathri manthram became popular due to

vishvAmithra otherwise I doubt if many people would oft quote it as

you have done so. Every manthram/nama(including kEshava meaning the

one who killed the demon kEshi) is only secondary to NArAyaNa

manthram. I don't want to get into the topic of sanDhyAvandanam as I

am less informed in such subject matters and moreover it is not my

territory. But I hope some guys/members would speak on my behalf

along these lines from the standpoint of Sri VaiShNavism.

 

In contrast to what you wrote,a brAhmaNa does not have much physical

strength(infact mental strength is more important than physical

strength to sustain long gurukula life). ParashurAma-karNa is the

classic example and how ParashurAma finds that karNa is not a brahmin

is known to everybody. The example you mentioned is not a "slight"

slip of tongue but a "gross" one because the story/line itself is

reversed and hence the mathra is not the same. Slip of tongue(or

Freudian slip of speech)can happen to anyone. This type of mistakes

are gender free(applies to both men and women). No one can claim that

from day one of his/her birth to the last breath of his/her

life,he/she had been perfect in each and everything. That is the

greatness of the lIla vibhUthi.

 

FULL time chanting was alotted only to brAhmaNa not to other two

varNAs. Other two varNAs can learn vEdas but their main profession

respectively,is to protect and take care of the trade of the

society/country.

 

Vedas are eternal and universal. Any system(applies to vedic system)

is called complete if and only if it accounts for all cases(general

and special). It is very difficult to develop such a system. If child-

bearing is considered as a case then I agree to some of your points.

What about women who don't want to get married and hence child-

bearing for those women doesn't even arise? But when one is young(be

it male/female)rational thinking is lacking and hence most of the

times(in kali yuga)kids are forced(without their consent) to learn

and this type of enforcement have had a psychological effect(mostly

bad) in the later years of their life.

 

 

> THIS IS WHERE THE HINDU SYSTEM SCORES OVER ALL

> OTHER SYSTEMS WHEREBY HIGHEST IMPORTANCE WAS GIVEN TO

> FUNCTION/JOB PROFILE AND NOT THE COLOUR OF THE SKIN, MENTAL

> CAPABILITY, PHYSICAL CAPABILITY,PERSONAL INTERESTS, GENDER ETC.

> By observation of what nature had already intended in the

> external,internal, physical, physiological, psychological at all

> levels, the Rishis found that man had physical / external

> capability for hard physical work and his physical limits could

> also be stretched.

 

Above paras of yours are contradictory. When it comes to physical

capability surely a brAhmaNa will score a "duck" in comparison to

people who are meat eaters. In this case a brAhmaNa would forfeit the

rights. But vedas say that only a brAhmaNa can teach vedas while the

other varnas can learn and chant but not eligible to teach. This

alone proves that more than the physical strength what is needed is

the mental strength. You have based all your arguments on physical

capabilities only.

 

> By contrast women were comparatively with a different

> disposition. Especially, during the 3 monthly days, and also

> during pregnancy from the 4th month till the 13th month

> extensive rest, care, delicate physical, mental, emotional

> handling had to be there. So women could not be subject

> to hard physical Labour or their physical and mental limits

> stretched beyond a point without damaging their internal organs

> and causing emotional instability

 

This is only in the case of cesaerian(2-3 months rest is advised

after the delivery and if it is a normal delivery women can do work

as usual from the 3rd or 4th day). Doctors themselves advise women to

do normal work to have a normal delivery. Infact women who are

pampered(without doing any physical work) during their pregnancy end

up with lot of problems. If we go to villages we would see lot of

women doing hard work till the last minute of the delivery. A woman

does not produce children 365 days a year or throughout her life time

that she should be barred from learning. What about men who may

suffer from temporary illness? For example there is a 7 yr old boy

who went to gurukulam learnt vedas say till 18-19 yrs and all of a

sudden he had a stroke(or some complexity can be introduced)and had

to have complete rest for 2-3 months and then becomes alright. Would

you say that he would become ineligible to continue chanting because

there was a break? Or what about the learning/knowledge he gained

prior to the attack? Should he vomit all those things? So why can't

females also be sent much before they reach puberty. Even if they

learn for two years that's a good learning. At the age of 6/7 I don't

think there is much of a difference in mental and physical capacity

between boys and girls.

 

> Hence the common saying among Hindus "Mata Pita Guru Daivam".

> Guru and God are also secondary to MOTHER Therefore, the woman

> though not permitted to chant the Vedas is considered

> not inferior but superior.

 

This is a wrong interpretation. Mother comes first because everybody

(including the Lord in incarnation form and excluding Sri)comes from

a mother's womb and hence she is mentioned first. This doesn't imply

that God is secondary to her. Mother tells the baby who the father is

and the father's duty is to send the children to the right

guru/AcArya and it is AcArya who uplifts the soul spiritually.

 

> a) One of the names of Vishnu worship is called prominently

> SriVaishnavism. The first word is Sri i.e. female. Sri is also

> the prefix for Srinivasa of Tirupati, on whose chest rests the

> female. HIS strength and locus standi is derived from Sri

> and not the other way.

 

According to SriVaiShNavism, Sri is considered as the "daya/compassion

(an attribute)" of the Lord and hence She is inseparable from Him. It

is because of Sri, He starts the lIla vibhUthi but He has all the

energy that is needed to run both vibhUthis,and this energy is not

derived from any external source other than Him. This has been

highlighted and cautioned by Sri YAmunAcArya & Sri Ramanuja against

all other philosophies. The Lord has sadguNAs namely

j~nAna,bala,aishvarya,vIrya,shakti,thEjas(which play an important

role in the doctrine of vyUhas). I guess you're mixing up the advaita

views and lakshmi tanthram on "shakti aspect" and Sri Ramanuja's

views "clearly" differ from those of Sri Shankara's. Learned members

are requested to throw light on this.

 

> b) The great Sankracharyars of Kanchipuram worship Kamakshi

> (female) as a primary deity. Moreover, only for the Sankracharya

> status, the Seers can see and bless anyone elder or younger, male

> or female, except the MOTHER. Therefore, once a person is chosen by

> the Mutt to be the future pontiff,has to give up among other

> things 'seeing' his mother forever. He may see his father and the

> father may also meet him after his ascending the Mutt

> throne. This is because He can bless his father as a human, and

> once he ascends the Mutt seat he becomes impersonal to all, except

> his Mother. If by mistake he sees his mother, he has to come down

> and prostrate before her. Otherwise, all, even his own father has

> to prostrate before him. The Sankracharyar will prostrate only

> before God and no one else. The only human exception is his own

> mother. Hence his mother is forbidden to see him and he is equally

> forbidden to see her.

 

You have been praising women all along and now you have dropped them

on the floor by saying that sanyasi(according shaivaite/advaitic

tradition)is forbidden to see his mother who is the "cause" for the

existence of sanyasi. Your statement should have been explicit saying

that only according to "Advaitic tradition" a sanyasi is forbidden to

see his mother. Advaitic philosophy itself is "impersonal" and

obviously those who follow that have to be impersonal which is not

the case with SriVaiShNavism. You are making a statement as if your

point is the universal truth as far sanyasis are concerned. Your

point is not valid in SriVaiShNava tradition and I request

bhAgavathas to share thoughts on the same.

 

> Coming to our modern day, can someone say why are there no

> women in the fire fighting agencies, in military (there is a small

> percentage everywhere in Western modern nations, but this is

> still a miniscule percentage as an exception, not an active force

> to reckon); in oil rigs; in diamond mines; as engine drivers; cab

> drivers; long distance lorry drivers; Not because of some

> chauvinistic discrimination, but because these are not the natural

> potentialities of women. Their forte as per the ancient Indian

> Rishis etc. was in pushing, encouraging, urging man and children

> to the Vedic path. Physically, they may be wife, sister, mother,

> but their real purpose is to represent Gayathri to goad man to do

> his job diligently.

 

There are not that many women in many areas. Possible reason could be

that they had been subjugated as "physically and mentally less

capable" for yugas/ages. Many chinese women know martial arts. Only

now women have started coming out of the house to explore "what the

world really is". Infact according to psychologists,the divorce rates

are high because women are no longer financially dependent on men and

they are literate unlike the the women of yester years. Because of

this independence of women,men feel insecured these days. I do agree

that there are some natural physical constraints for women but still

the explanation is not unambiguously clear and also the question, why

sUdras are ineligible to learn the vedas, has gone unanswered. In one

of the questionaire on SriBhAShya(Sri Ramanuja's commentary on brahma

sUthra),Sri U.Ve SriBhAShyam Srirangam Narasimhachar swami said that

these days women have the desire to know and learn many things and

hence Jeeyars and AcAryAs encourage women to learn. Everything was

written based on my limited knowledge and hence once again seek

forgiveness if I(or the tone or the contents)unintentionally sounded

rude anywhere.

 

AzhvAr EmperumAnAr JIyar thiruvadigaLE sharaNam

NC Nappinnai