My issues with the concept of Nirhetukam

[Guest guest]

Sri:

 

Respected BhAgavathAs,

 

I have been reading quite a number of

articles on Prapatti and Bhakti, etc. While doing so, I landed on this

ever-controversial topic of Nirhetuka Kripa and Sahetuka Kripa, the main

difference between the Vadakalai and Thenkalai Sampradayams. Maybe due to my

lack of intelligence, I had tonnes of doubts based on my understanding on the

concept of Nirhetuka Kripa:

 

1) Perumal grants Moksham to whomever HE CHOOSES. Am I wrong if I turn

judgemental and say its not fair if he doesn't grant moksha to somebody who does

the best of Bhakti and Prapatti practices, just because he is not the "Chosen

one"??

 

2) Perumal is both the upaya and upeya. Even performing devotional activities is

considered to be sort of "sinful" (at that supreme transendental level of

understanding), so what is the jivatma supposed to do, then??

 

3) If the Jivatma is not supposed (or required) to do devotional activities,

then what is he supposed to do?? One thing he must do as I understand, is

surrendering to an acarya. But then, even that is done only if the Jivatma

INTENDS, right?? So, if a JIvatma surrenders to an Acarya and he is granted

Moksham, it becomes Sahetukam becomes his action is that he surrenders to an

Acharya. Isn't it paradoxical, when we say that according to the TK sampradayam,

one has to surrender to an Acarya to attain moksham, but still Moksham is due to

Nirhetuka Kripai??

 

4) Why should we chant the 4000?? Why should we glorify the AcAyas?? Why should

we even follow SV practices?? If perumal grants moksham arbitrarily based on his

choice, why sweat then??

 

4) It is said that "Prapatti" is a state of (mental) surrender. So what does one

do after he surrenders?? What are his activities??

 

5) The reason that I said that I have "issues" is because, if perumal grants

moksha to whomever he chooses, according to his choice, then isn't he being

partial?? Like a teacher awarding the best grades to the student who is

perceived to be unworthy by his classmates??

 

6) What about the shloka from the GIta, "TasmAt Sarvesu KAlesu mAm Anusmara

Yudhya Ca Mayi arpita ManO buddhih mAm evaisyasi asamsayah"?? Perumal says that

if he think of him all the time (even when fighting in a war) we can go back to

him without doubt. He guarantees moksha if he think of him all the time, again,

my (maybe flawed) interpretation is that, since if he think of him all the time

he gives us Moksha, we are making the spiritial endeavour to think of him all

the time to attain Moksha. Isn't it Sahetukam, again??

 

The above are queries that arose from whatever intelligence (or the lack of it)

that I have. I request the BhagavathAs to kindly address this concept in a

logical manner, and graciously forgive me for whatever aparadhaas perceived in

this mail.

 

AzhwAr EmperumanAr JIyar ThiruvadigalE Saranam.

 

Dasan,

 

KidAmbi SoundararAjan.

 

AparAdha sahasrAni kriyante har nisam mayA

 

DAsoham iti mam matvA ksamashvA MadhusoodhanA ||

 

 

 

 

 

The New Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Sri:

Srimathe Ramanujaya nama:

Dear Soundar,

There are more knowledgeable devotees in this forum to

explain this subtle point with references. My reply is based on the

little understanding that I have gathered from the owrks of our

pUrvAcAryAs. I'm also a beginner like you.

 

> I have been reading quite a >number of articles on

> Prapatti and Bhakti, etc. While doing so, I landed on this ever-

> controversial topic of Nirhetuka Kripa and Sahetuka Kripa, the main

> difference between the Vadakalai and Thenkalai Sampradayams.

> Maybe due to my lack of intelligence, I had tonnes of doubts based

> on my understanding on the concept of Nirhetuka Kripa:

 

Before going into AzhvArs(&their works),which are esoterical and have

many hidden meanings,I would suggest you to start from our

pUrvAcAryAs life first and then their works. PUrvAcAryas'life history

will automatically inculcate faith towards and stimulate us to learn

our sampradayam. The works of pUrvAcAryAs will elucidate all the

subtle points(that you have raised) expressed by AzhvArs in their

hymns. When you vist India,go to P.B. Swami's granthamala

office,Kanchi and collect all the important SV works. P.B. Swami's

explanations are very clear that you will catch most of the points

very easily but it is always advisable for the reader to check his

book knowledge with an AcAryA whose main profession is Sri

VaiShNavism and nothing else. PS:I started first to read(apart from

Mumukshuppadi)AcArya Hrdhayam but I had difficulty in understanding

it. But after I had couple of readings of Sri Vacana BhUShaNam,I

could understand/appreciate AH better what Swami Azhagiya MaNavALa

PerumAL NAyanAr was trying to convey. Basically our AcAryAs works

deal with the hidden meanings of AzhvArs hymns. Once we have a good

understanding of AcAryArs' works,it becomes easier to understand when

we listen to bhagavad viShayams.

 

> 1) Perumal grants Moksham to whomever HE CHOOSES. Am I wrong

> if I turn judgemental and say its not fair if he doesn't grant

> moksha to somebody who does the best of Bhakti and Prapatti

> practices, just because he is not the "Chosen one"??

 

Don't forget that our karma is beginningless. Our sins are piled up

enormously in the form of mountains. How is it justified on our part

to expect the Lord(with nirAnkusa swAthantrya/unlimited independence)

to grant us mOksha for some bhakti/prapatti practises done in this

birth for the enormous sins that we had accumulated since time

immemorial?? The Lord tells Arjuna that both have taken innumerable

births and He alone knows what everyone's past,present and the

future. We have been straying away from the Lord for yugas. Sri

PiLLai lOkAcArya gives one classic example. It is like the wife

(jIvAtma)who had gone away from the husband(Lord)for long and all of

a sudden,one fine day(bhakthi/prapatti done in single birth) she goes

to her husband and expects the husband to accept her!

 

Sri Vacana BhUShaNam quotes an example from Ramayana. Bharatha's love

for SriRama is highly and undoubtedly virtuous yet PerumAL turned

down bharatha's plea(SriRama to return to ayODhyA to take over the

kingdom). Bharatha sought PerumAL on his own(swAgatha swIkAra)and

hence he was turned down while guha's is a paragatha swIkAra(PerumAL

sought guha). PerumAL,on His own volition shed His "unconditional

grace" on Guha. This shows that He showers His unconditional grace on

His own choice of subjects.

 

> 2) Perumal is both the upaya and upeya. Even performing devotional

> activities is considered to be sort of "sinful" (at that supreme

> transendental level of understanding), so what is the jivatma

> supposed to do, then??

 

Just be like the new-born baby which is at the "mercy" of the mother.

We are His possessions and hence until He takes us to His

vaikuNTam,we are supposed to spend our time,instead of wasting in

mundane affairs,by singing his glories,doing kaimkaryams in temples

or to His devotees,sharing bhagavad-bhAgavad anubhavams etc. These

activities are like leisure course(not a upAyam). We do all this till

we shed off this material body. Or one can follow TirukkaNNa mangai

ANdAn(SVB 80). There are two types of prapanna:ArTha and Dhrptha.

 

> 3) If the Jivatma is not supposed (or required) to do devotional

> activities, then what is he supposed to do?? One thing he must do

> as I understand, is surrendering to an acarya. But then, even that

> is done only if the Jivatma INTENDS, right?? So, if a JIvatma

> surrenders to an Acarya and he is granted Moksham, it becomes

> Sahetukam becomes his action is that he surrenders to an Acharya.

> Isn't it paradoxical, when we say that according to the TK

> sampradayam, one has to surrender to an Acarya to attain moksham,

> but still Moksham is due to Nirhetuka Kripai??

 

Surrendering to an AcArya:Is it because of the jIvAtma's effort/

intent or the grace of AcAryA? BG has 700 slokas and refer to 4:34

(also 9:26). BTW,Lord KrShNA(Lord Sriman Narayanana;Remember Sri

KraththAzhvAn's Lakshmi nATha) is the AcAryA and Arjuna is the

disciple. KrShNA says that because Arjuna is dear to Him,He is

imparting that knowledge to Arjuna. The answer to your question lies

in this statement. It's out and out because of the grace of

AcArya,the disciple performs the surrender/sharaNAgati. The

fourth/last prakaraNam of Sri Vacana BhUShaNam explains in detail the

glories of AcArya and AcAryA as the ultimate upAyam. This in no way

conflicts with Lord being the upAyam. Not only TK sampradayam but

every sampradayam has an AcArya who showers mercy on his disciples.

 

Why do you need an AcAryA in the first place? EVen in academic

circles,or when you go for a job interview,the company asks you for

references. Why? Why can't they trust you based on your merit alone

instead of asking you to get references? In the material world,a

Prof/Employer may even give a bad recommendation to spoil one's life.

But in the spiritual life,the AcArya/Ramanuja is all merciful and

intercedes with Lord on behalf of the jIvAtmAs. Note that every

AcAryA will only invoke EmperumAnAr's (during samAshrayaNam/

sharaNAgati) name,and not his own name, to intercede with the Lord.

You should first catch hold of guru parampara vaibhavam(that has from

AzhvArs to MaNavALa mAmunigaL),Sri Vacana BhUShaNam,AcArya Hrdhayam,

Mumukshuppadi,and thathva thrayam.

 

> 5) The reason that I said that I have "issues" is because, if

> perumal grants moksha to whomever he chooses, according to his

> choice, then isn't he being partial?? Like a teacher awarding the

> best grades to the student who is perceived to be unworthy by his

> classmates??

 

You should not compare the material world AcArya(faulty many a times)

to the Spiritual AcArya. One of my friend(who was always daring)

in "Stochastic Process" class,straight away,told the Prof that his

explanation is wrong. The Prof was toppled by the student's arguments

and analyses. The Professor(his ego had been wounded) finally flunked

him in that course:-) Sometimes the Professor may avenge the student.

 

> 6) What about the shloka from the GIta, "TasmAt Sarvesu KAlesu

> mAm Anusmara Yudhya Ca Mayi arpita ManO buddhih mAm

> evaisyasi asamsayah"?? Perumal says that if he think of him all the

> time (even when fighting in a war) we can go back to him without

> doubt. He guarantees moksha if he think of him all the time, again,

> my (maybe flawed) interpretation is that, since if he think of him

> all the time he gives us Moksha, we are making the spiritial

> endeavour to think of him all the time to attain Moksha. Isn't it

> Sahetukam, again??

 

If it's sahEtukam,Arjuna should have fought alone! At every moment,it

is the Lord who saves Arjuna. Remember that Kaurava's army was

stronger than Pandava's. Here also it is the Lord who plays the trick

(if you look at the Mahabharatha story). Both DuryODhana and Arjuna

come to seek the Lord's help and it's duryODhana who comes first.

But before this incident itself,war was declared as the only

solution. If duryODhana had sought the Lord,everything would

have collapsed. The Lord pretends to be asleep when DuryODhana

comes so that the latter goes and sits at the Lord's head side.

Normally when you open the eyes you will see what is exactly

opposite! Now Arjuna enters and KrShNa only sees Arjuna first and

hence he was given the first chance to seek the Lord's help.

DuryODhana coming earlier does not matter but whom the Lord see does

all matter. Arjuna grabbed this and said he only wants the Lord.

Hence what ever is left(Lord's army)will go to the other party

DuryODhana.

 

Among the 700 slOkas of BG,574 are attributed to the Lord. Which one

of the 574,you will take it as gospel? All 574 can not be gospel. The

Lord's conclusion/answer to all the queries of Arjuna is given in BG

18:66:-) In the SharaNAgathi Gadyam,EmperumAnAr,for the sharaNAgathi

performed to PerumAl through thAyAr(R seeks thAyAr's blessings first)

in the beginning,he seeks forgiveness from SriRangantha for all his

previous sins(including that sharaNAgathi)bhagavad,bhAgavatha

apacAram etc towards the end of his conversation with the Lord and

Lord also assures salvation for Ramanuja and all those associated

with EmperumAnAr. What will happen to us if Ramanuja had not

extracted that promise from the Lord on behalf of all of us??? AcArya

is the one who seeks the welfare of all beings and without his

grace,spiritual upliftment is not at all possible.

Sincerely seek forgiveness for any wrong information conveyed by me.

 

AzhvAr EmperumAnAr JIyar thiruvadigaLE sharaNam

NC Nappinnai

[Guest guest]

Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha

 

I am sharing the information that I have heard from the elders on this

subject. All mistakes are solely due to my agnyanam and inability to

understand from the right perspectives while the credits for all the right

information go to the elders from whom I acquired the same.

 

Sahetukam - that which involves our effort to get his krupai (All yogas upto

bhakthi - atman decides what it wants to do for the lords happiness)

Nirhetukam - krupai that flows out of HIS will (Prapatti - the atman just

falls flat at his feet REALIZING its incapability to do ANYTHING -

achitthai pondru" like the insentient - and hence, he takes over i.e he gets

whatever he wants from that atman)

 

Sahetukam - Devaki wanted the lord to be born to her and she had done tapas.

So lord was born for her.

 

Nirhetukam - Lord wanted to be the son of Yasodha and Nandagopar. So, though

he was born for Devaki, was brought up by Yasodha and Nandagopar performing

his leela in the aayarkulam.

 

Perumal grants Moksham to those who follow the appropriate path AND ALSO to

those whomever HE CHOOSES. One must remember, he does not deny to those who

do the best of Bhakti & Prapatti. In our sampradayams all these philosophies

are explained by nice examples. I will take a day-to-day example. It is like

Green Card processing in United States. If one files an Green Card visa from

India, they will have to go through the process and based on their

eligibility WILL get the visa. But, there is another way in which one may

get the Green Card in US. That is through Green-Card lotteries which is

available for many countries. Anyone may get this based on INS's decision.

Similarly though people have to follow the appropriate margams prescribed

for them, Perumal may still choose to give moksham to those who HE wishes.

Another classical example is: There was a rakshashan who had heard about

moksham. He waited in the himalayas and when lord Shiva passed by, he asked

moksham from him. Shiva replied that he CAN NOT grant that and said that

there would be a person called Krishna who would come a little later in that

path and only he could grant moksham. The rakshashan waited and when Lord

Krishna came, he asked for the moksham. Lord granted him the moksham and

started moving forward. The rakshasha exclaimed "Hey! Stop. It is not fair

if you give moksham just to me. Give the moksham to my brother too" ).

Lord granted moksham for that rakshasha's brother too. Then that rakshasha

asked the lord to wait, and looked around. There was a rishi who had been

doing penance for years to attain better spiritual levels. This rakshasha

hit that rishi on his head and the soul of the rishi got liberated. Then the

rakshasha took the body and gave it to Krishna saying "Idham savam navam

savam" i.e this dead body is a fresh one and I am giving this to you as a

gift for granting moksham to me and my brother. Please don't see why the

rishi did not get moksham, because, may be he had made some sins or was

trying for kaivalyam or whatever. The point is, those who go through the

karma, gyana, bhakti yogas and prapatti margam get the moksham. But there is

also the will of the lord i.e his sankalpam, by which one may attain moksham

 

 

Perumal is both upaya and upeya. So, what is sinful? Sinful are the acts

that are done with the mindset of acquiring materials. Sin is not WRONG. Sin

is something that retains you back in this materialistic world. When every

karma is done as a kainkaryam(this is an important theme in our sampradayam

which many people don't quite catch) - i.e karma is what you do whilst,

kainkaryam is with what intent you do. In the above example, the rakshasha

killed the rishi which may be perceived as a sin, but look at the intent and

ignorance of him. By nature he is a rakshasha and is taught to kill others.

And why did he kill? It was only to present the body, to the lord as a gift.

So, it is the INTENT with which you do YOUR PRESCRIBED duty. The intent of

Bhagavadh Agnya Kainkaryam" turns every karma into HIS kainkaryam.

 

Agnyanina maya dhosan vihithan hare | Kshamastatvam Kshamastatvam Seshasaila

Shikhamane ||

 

Yatheendra Pravanam Vandhe RAMYA Jamataram Munim

 

Adiyen Ramanuja DAsan,

Lakshmi Narasimhan