Casteism and Vaishnavism

[Guest guest]

Sri: Respected Adiyaars, I have been following the

posts on the concept of Casteism. I am throwing in my two cents, or rather

something less worthy. * Acarya means, "to lead by example". One of the main

Acaryas in our Guru Paramparai is Nammazhwaar. He belongs to the "fourth caste".

Well, his "Uyarvara Uyarnalam..", the BANGING statement roars with

SriVaishnavism!! Well, if somebody is not ready to accept Sri Kurugoor Nambi as

an Acharya because of his "lower birth", well in my humble opinion, he ceases to

be a SriVaishnavan. Period. * (Suppose) If Thirukkachi Nambigal enters the

madappalli to make Puliyodharai prasadam for perumal (assuming), will one refuse

to offer it to perumal?? Or, will one refuse to eat that puliyodarai, yet worse,

will one even let him into the madappalli?? Well if thats the case, I pity that

person. * Thirumangayazhwar says, "VAdinen VAdi...", he went after all material

pursuits before surrendering to Sriman NArAyaNa, I doubt if he was a brahmin by

birth. Neither were ThiruppANar, Kulashekharar, NammAzhwAr, BhakthisArar. Can

some SriVaishnavan choose to omit their pasurams in the 4000 because of their

birth?? * Thulukka Nachiyar. A muslim by birth, and we have a sannidhi for her.

* According to the VarAha Purana, AsurAs are born in the brahmin families during

Kaliyuga. * "Kalau Sudhra Samudbhavah", lets not forget this statement which

means, "everybody is a Sudhra in the Kaliyuga". * In the Bhagavad Gita, Perumal

says "Vidhya vinaya Sampanne ... Panditah Sama Darshinah", Which means that a

learned person, sees the same entity (soul) in a dog, a dog eater, and even a

brahmana!! * Lord RAmA was a Kshatriya by birth, so was SriKrishna, who was

also a Yadava by his actions. If one wants to brand everything, how will he

brand Lord Narasimha?? Funny, ain't it?? * RAmAnujar broke the concept of

Casteism to Shambles, I mean he is most famous for his revolution with respect

to overthrowing caste barriers, than even his SriBhAshyam, lets not forget that.

And what do we call ourselves?? Oh!! Ok, I gotit, "Ramanuja SampradayA"!!

*Personally I would rather read AzhwArs' Arulicheyals than reading Pancharatra

Vidhis to brand who is a "Brahmana" and who is not. * Kali is progressing at a

rapid rate. We have so many diseases. So many problems, and the worse is yet to

come. Let us enjoy the unity of the adiyaars in glorifying Sriman NArAyanA, than

fighting with each other, "I am thenkalai, you are vadakalai, I am a brahmin,

you are not" * Especially the TK sampradayam is known for its catholicity and

leniency towards caste (by birth) issues. It really pains my heart when I see

caste-based feuds, and TKs who still stick to the "holier than thou" attitude,

just because he is a brahmana by birth. * Brahmana?? My foot. The next time any

"Brahmin" in this forum opens his mouth about his Caste, I request him to kindly

do some introspection, have a mini flashback. How many movies he had seen. How

many "double-meaning" and vulgar jokes he had enjoyed. How many ladies he had

drooled on. How many clubs he had been to. How many lies he had uttered. How

many transgressions he had committed. How many people he had hurt. How many

times he had exhibited arrogant behaviour. How many bad words (or should I say,

"Curse words") he had uttered. How many times he had smoked or "sipped". * Let

us please leave this bane of casteism far behind and move on. We have lots to

learn, Nirhetuka Kripai is still hanging in the forum for discussion. I want the

translations and vyakyanams for "Thiruppalliyezhuchi" and many more pasurams.

Discussing "Brahmin-non-brahmin", or "Thenkalai-Vadakalai" is shameful to say

the least. * If I maybe pardoned, Swami Deiskan is worthy of the same respect

that we give to Swami ManavAla MAmunigal, or even Pillai LOkAcharyar. Does it

really matter if Swami Desikan wrote a Sthuthi on PL or vice versa?? Even if one

wrote a Sthuthi on the other, does it make him any inferior?? Why do we brand

Swami Desikan as a VK and then deal with him and his works with such an

attitude?? Will Swami MM be happy then, or even Swami PL?? Why should we bother

about these issues and do "extensive research" to prove that it was SD who wrote

the Lokacharya Panchasat, seriously, what is the big deal??? So what, are we

trying to say, "Ha!! I told you so, so SD is inferior"?? * Finally if I may,

ThiruppANAzhwar just said, "AmalanAdippiran, adiyArkku ennai Atpaduthiya

vimalan", and he didn't say, "THENKALAI adiyaarkku.." or "VADAKALAI

adiyaarkku..." * Kindly excuse me for anything hurtful or offensive or arrogant

that is obseved. Also, sorry for my ramblings. AzwAr emperumanAr JIyar

ThiruvadigalE saranam. Adiyen Dasan, Kidambi SoundararAjan.

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Vimal,

 

I apologize for this statement, but I am surprised to hear these statements

of yours, against brahmana. Let me point out two things:

 

a) "next time any brahmin..." -> You must have used the phrase, "next time

anyone who claims himself as a brahmin..." By making the former statement,

you are targeting the entire community that includes "ALL OUR JEEYARS,

ACHARYA PURUSHAS" etc. Kindly be specific in your postings.

 

b) I am surprised, but not angry, to see such statements from you, despite

claiming yourself as the one who wants to follow Vaishnavism. Had your post

been with the theme of "let us pray the lord for the ignorance of those who

claim that they are brahmin and superior by birth and ill treat others etc"

then it would suit the profile of a Shri Vaishnavan. A true Shri Vaishnavan

is the one who does not try to hurt others EVEN IF THEY ARE THE MOST SINFUL

IN THIS UNIVERSE AS PER THE KARMA etc. By making such statements, doesn't it

now project an image that Shri Vaishnavans are superior to those brahmanas?

So, this kind of thought, will again lead Vaishnavas being considered no

different from "those" brahmanas(in a particular period in the history, and

in the current world) who solely claimed their superiority just by birth and

not by their knowledge. Being angry on few sect of people for their

arrogance/ignorance is one thing. Trying to project a wrong thing about an

entire community in a group like this is another. Whatever one may claim,

kindly claim it from a different profile, not under the "Shri Vaishnavan"

cover.

 

>Brahmana?? My foot. The next time any "Brahmin" in this forum opens

>his mouth about his Caste, I request him to kindly do some

>introspection, have a mini flashback. How many movies he had seen.

>How many "double-meaning" and vulgar jokes he had enjoyed. How many

>ladies he had drooled on. How many clubs he had been to. How many

>lies he had uttered. How many transgressions he had committed. How

>many people he had hurt. How many times he had exhibited arrogant

>behaviour. How many bad words (or should I say, "Curse words") he had

>uttered. How many times he had smoked or "sipped". * Let us please

>leave this bane of casteism far behind and move on.

 

 

Manavala Maamunigal says:

"Azhvaragalayum Aruliccheyalgalayum

Thaazhavaga Ninaippavar dhaam - Naragil Veezhvargal

Endru Nenje Eppozhudhum nee Avar pal

Sendranugakkoositthiri."

[Dear mind, remember that those who speak ill of the azhvars and their

aruliccheyals would go to naraka and hence never go near them].

 

Look at the usage of swamy Maamunigal. One may interpret that he is cursing

those, who talk ill of azhwars, to go to narakam. This is a wrong

interpretation that araises due to vipareetha gnyanam. He doesn't curse

those as that wouldn't suit his profile of Shri Vaishnava. He warns his own

MIND, that he has heard that those who speak ill of azhwars would go to

narakam and hence it should not think ill of them and that it should not go

near to those who speak such way.

 

As I had mentioned above, I am still surprised, but I am not trying to say

you are wrong nor am I trying offend you by any means. I hope you understand

 

 

May lord Shriman Narayana bless you with the right Acharyan and bestow all

his blessings.

 

Sarva Aparadhaan Kshamasva

 

Yatheendra Pravanam Vandhe RAMYA Jamataram Munim

 

Adiyen Ramanuja Dasan,

Lakshmi Narasimhan

 

{Moderator's note:

In the pAsuram that srI. lakshmi narasimhan quotes, "narakam"

is also understood to mean general existence in the samsAric world that

we all inhabit . i.e. if one does not follow the teachings of

AzhvArs and AchAryAs, they will continue to wallow in this samsAric

misery}

[Guest guest]

Sri Lakshmi Narasimhan,

 

I didn't say anything against a brahmana. I am totally against people who are

born in Brahmin families, hence thinking and acting superior, especially in

our Thennacharya Sampradayam. Well, I am open about my standpoint. Based on

what I have learnt (which is miniscule, I accept) I think that the beauty of

SriVaishnavism, especially the TK Sampradayam is its locus standi against

caste-based discrimination. When I said a "Brahmana", again, I meant caste-

based brahmin who acts superior. If you want to again misconstrue and

extrapolate on it, please be my guest. I have better things to do. Please be

cognizant that this forum is visited by many Vaishnavas, who are not

born "Thenkalai"s or even "Brahmanas" (Caste-based I meant). The beauty of

Vaishnavism, again is its universatility. Lets not stir a hornet's nest by

raising this caste issue. Even if we don't attract others to the Ramanuja

fold, let us not drive them by raising caste issues. Please. I repeat,

casteism has been a bane. Lets shed it and move on. Also, how is it going to

help one advance in his spirituality by discussing brahmin-nonbrahmin

issues??? I visit this forum to learn about Ramanujar and Azhwaars and

Adiyaars. Not "Brahmin/non-brahmin", "thenkalai/vadakalai" issues. Hoping this

forum is democratic (which it is without doubt), I was just being vocal about

my intentions. Thats all. It is very very annoying and irrelevant to

discuss Caste-issues in the 21st century. HH Sri Chinna Ramanuja Jeeyar is

accepting many into the fold of SriVaishnavism and is trying to make the world

vibrant with SriVaishnavism and Ramanuja Siddhanta. Lets take a leaf out of

his book, and if not follow, atleast try to follow him. I very sincerely

offer my apologies and pardons to all the Vaishnavas who might have been

offended by my post.

 

Dasan, Kidambi Soundararajan.

[Guest guest]

Dear Shri Vimal,

 

As you had mentioned, you have the right to have your opinions while

others have their own. I agree to that point as well and apologize if

I projected as if I am trying to push my opinions/preach etc. I am

not here for that. Once again, "you" is not literally Shri Vimal in

the following post. It is the second person usage. Kindly take the

post in the right spirit.

 

>I am totally against people who are

>born in Brahmin families, hence thinking and acting superior,

>especially in our Thennacharya Sampradayam

 

While, this might be one's strong opinion, don't we still think we

are discriminating some people? My question still holds! Is it the

stands of a Shri Vaishnavan to say discrimination is wrong and

simultaneously say the he hates those who discriminates?

 

>HH Sri Chinna Ramanuja Jeeyar is accepting many into the fold of

>SriVaishnavism and is trying to make the world vibrant with

>SriVaishnavism and Ramanuja Siddhanta. Lets take a leaf out of his

>book, and if not follow, atleast try to follow him.

 

On one side, I see you saying that in 21st century we should not talk

about casteism, while on the other side, you are quoting a great soul

(probably the greatest in the modern world) HH Sri Chinna Ramanuja

Jeeyar(aka Shriman Narayana Jeeyar) who is a perfect example for

following the Sanyasa Ashrama Dharma that is part of Varnashrama

Dharma and who follows all anushtanams. What I see is really your

hatred towards people who are discriminating and not towards the

varnashrama dharma. That was why I requested to be specific. People

are different than a system. If people go wrong, we shouldn't try to

blame the system. Why are we mixing up the system and the people? By

blaming the system one is targeting the entire society that is

following it. But, if one is blaming a particular bunch of people,

who, under the name of that system, do wrong things and spoil its

name, that is logical.

 

By the way, please do not think I am in favor of caste

discrimination. I am not saying this to get anybody's sympathy for

me, nor am I trying be a good boy in everyone's books. What I am

saying is that I am not in favor of caste discrimination NOR is the

Varnashrama Dharmam. I repeat, Varnashrama Dharmam does talk about

castes and rules for the castes and birth rights! But, Varnashrama

Dharmam DOES NOT DISCRIMINATE people. It is ONLY PEOPLE who

DISCRIMINATE under the name of Varnashrama Dharmam who are to be

corrected. I request everyone to kindly understand this basic

difference. If Varnashrama Dharmam is wrong, our acharya purushas are

wrong for following the brahmana dharmam(many of them) and sanyasa

ashramam and all the shruthi vakyas are wrong. My request was that

our sampradayam should not be wrongly propogated/projected. Our

sampradayam is built OVER the Varnashrama Dharmam as the Varnashrama

Dharmam talks about only the disciplines for the body. Our

sampradayam is also catholic in terms of explaining that one must not

DISCRIMINATE others due to their deha that they have achieved by

accumulating punyams/papams. Varnashrama Dharmam is at the body

level. Vaishnavam is at the spiritual level. These two can co-exist

(whether it does now or not is a different issue).

 

If one says he/she is against casteism, one should not wear

yagnyopaveedam, shouldn't go in for shruthi vakyas and should not get

married as per the norms and should indulge in intercaste marriages

and should not quote any of our acharyas for they were the followers

of the caste system - to simply put, one becomes an anti-hindu in

modern terms.

 

But, if one is against caste DISCRIMINATION, then he/she is most

welcome:) 'cos that is the right thing that needs to be corrected and

we have very less people who have volunteered for that. Please join

the club!!!

 

UNITY IN DIVERSITY is nothing but the VAISHNAVAM on top of the

VARNASHRAMA DHARMAM. If this wonderful concept is misunderstood due

to lack of knowledge/will/right acharyan, by even a mass of people,

it is probably the Bhagavan's sankalpam to be so! Look at the

wonderful system of ours! The azhwars are of different castes, yet,

from the Vaishnava perspective, they form the acharya lineage. How

so? Doesn't it show the greatness of Shri Vaishnavam? But, if this is

misunderstood that different castes MUST NOT EXIST, what to say? This

is when an analysis between the reality and the perception needs to

be understood. While diversity exists in reality in its own virtue,

when one perceives unity from that diversity how nice it would be!

That is Vaishnavam! But, if one says the unity can be perceived only

when the diversity is wiped out?!!!!?! Well! I have nothing to say!

 

"amaravor angam aarum vedamor naangum odhi

thamargalil thalaivaraya saadhi andhanargalenum,

numargalai pazhipparagil nodippadhor alavil aange

avargal thaam pulayar polum, aranga maanagarulaane"

 

[Oh! Ranganaatha! Even if one has attained the highest deha, i.e a

brahmin deha, and chants the 4 vedas and its six angas, if one says

ill about you(the lord) or your adiyars(of any caste) then let them

attain the lowest birth at that very moment]

 

- Thondaradippodi Azhwar.

 

Yatheendra Pravanam Vandhe RAMYA Jamataram Munim

 

Adiyen Ramanuja Dasan,

Lakshmi Narasimhan

[Guest guest]

Dear Sri Kidambi Soundararajan Swamin,

 

adiyEn's praNams.

 

adiyEn will address just the Lokacharya Panchasat part

of your mail because adiyEn had posted a lengthy article

on it recently in this forum.

 

>From my view point adiyEn did not try to prove

anything. Since someone asked about it adiyEn simply

presented a bunch of data. Nothing more.

 

As far as my understanding goes, TK scholars give

immense respect to Vedanta Desikar. If you read PBA

Swami's articles, you will notice that he refers

innumerable times to Desikar and his works. I have

heard many of Velukkudi Varadachariar Swami's

upanyasams and he invariably quotes Desikar. However,

where these scholars differ from VK scholars is in

the fact that they do not give Desikar exclusivity

in their praises. To them, Desikar is another great

acharya in our tradition, but not necessarily the

greatest acharya. That is reserved for Sri Ramanuja.

 

Going to your other point, adiyEn's post was not

intended at saying/proving Desikar was inferior to

anyone. In fact, adiyEn had said that no matter who

wrote the sIronRu thaniyan, it's words ring true.

The same holds true for Lokacharya Panchasat as well.

These acharyas are so far above our level, that we

can not prove anything about them.

 

I request you to kindly not include all of our

great scholars and acharyas into the same bracket

as individuals such as myself (who ramble based on

some limited understanding) based on our posts here.

 

adiyEn madhurakavi dAsan

 

--- vimalkumar ranganathan <panardasan wrote:

> If I maybe pardoned, Swami Deiskan is worthy of the same

> respect that we give to Swami ManavAla MAmunigal, or even

> Pillai LOkAcharyar. Does it really matter if Swami

> Desikan wrote a Sthuthi on PL or vice versa?? Even if one

> wrote a Sthuthi on the other, does it make him any

> inferior??

> ...

 

 

 

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