Clarification about the irelevence of Varna-ashrama

[Guest guest]

Dear Bhagavatars

 

The classification according to birth is what is irrelevent. If one wishes

to use this classification in a limited spiritual sense then it can be

useful as a teaching tool. In the modern western world at least children are

brought up to believe that all humankind are equal, equal rights for all,

democracy etc - are we going to teach them to discriminate against aothers

based on their birth? A lot of right wing Americans would consider that all

members of the "dark" races are inferior - do you "brahmins" living in their

society accept that judgement unreservedly? - You should, because you are

living in THEIR society! (That's if you accept varna-ashrama dharma)

 

Caste duties as per Manu and the others are what are irrelevent because

there are only a tiny minority of individuals that are practicing their

caste occupations as per Dharma Sastra. How many of the internet active

members of this forum are following their caste obligations?

 

The simplified categorisation of caste duties was based upon a

pre-industrial agrarian society - this no longer exists in the lives of most

of us, therefore the formulations of the sages on these issues is no longer

relevent.

 

The only teaching which is still relevent is off course the loka-dharma as

taught in the dharma sastras which is applicable to all times and places.

 

Adiyen

 

Srirama

[Guest guest]

Shrimath Ramanujaya Namaha

 

This post was interesting. As usual I am sharing what I have learnt

from elders (but, misinterpretation may be due to my agnyanam and my

apologies for the same). First things first: Basically, we should not

be mixing up two different geographical divisions. Well, today's

geographical division might not be the same as it was. But, the

people are the same as they inherit their ancestors culture/tradition

etc. Every portion of the Bhumadevi has a visesham i.e a speciality.

The portion that we live in was called a huge island. It was called

Karma Bhumy. It was called Jambudweepam(Naavalam Periya Theevinil

Vaazhum). Here, if you notice, the sunrise and the sunset are pretty

much in a proper cycle i.e 12 hours of day and 12 hours of night.

Just this alone doesn't guarantee of, doing the karma here. There are

umpteen reasons why this is treated as a karma bhumy like the livable

conditions i.e no extreme weather conditions, the tropical nature of

the land, pretty much fertile most of it, for the appropriate food

etc. In those days, the westerners were called as "Youvanas" and were

supposed to be living in the desams called Bogha Bhumy. They had no

rules and regulations, they did not fall under the karma and any

jeeva that had made enough sins not to even fall under the kadaksham

of any blessed souls were born there. And, as an atma realizes slowly

regarding its very wrong nature of living i.e just the bogham(desire

and happiness), when it starts thinking of a better life, it is given

a chance again to be born in the karma bhumy and starts its cycle

again. So, to your question on "white and dark races", it does not

really matter. All are supposed to be boghis:). Now the question

arises to what happens to those who move from the karma bhumy to the

bhoga bhumy? There are 4 types(based on the karma and geography) of

souls born.

a) The one that is born in the bhoga bhumy and enjoys that life.

Sooner or later starts thinking about a better life and gets a chance

to make progress in its path towards higher spiritual level.

b) The one that is born in the bhoga bhumy and understands the

importance of a better life and migrates towards the karma bhumy.

c) The one that is born in the karma bhumy and does not realize the

importance of the janma that it has got and moves towards the bhoga

bhumy(only to fall back to its cycle in its next birth - person like

me:( )

d) The one that is born in the karma bhumy and realizes the

importance of the dharma shastras and sticks to it and attains the

better level.

 

Out of all these 4, due to the punyams that the atman had done in the

previous births, the atman may indulge in the bhagavadh aradhanam in

some form or other, whether it does karma or not, whether it enjoys

the bhogam or not. These souls that indulge in the bhagavadh

aradhanam this way, protect themselves from not being born under the

bogha bhumy again. It is only upto perumal to correct them(Thirutthi

panikollal) and put them in the right place. And if the

bhakthi/prapatti is complete / or due to his Nirhetuka krupai, he may

even take them over to his abode after this very birth.

 

Coming back to our karma bhumy and the dharmams. One thing I wanted

to clarify was that: A person who is born as a brahmanan is

considered to have attained the best of the "Dehams". Now remember, a

deham is given to an atma based on its karma. From what I have seen,

people fail to understand the following subtle point. If a person is

born as a brahmana and does a filthy work, how could he still be

treated as brahmana? Well. The answer is: The body that he/she has

attained is still that of a higher birth. So, the body has to be

respected. But, when it comes to the brahmana, he/she, due to his/her

filthy act, volunteers for a lower birth like an animal or bird

whatever. So, we should treat that person still as a brahmana due to

the body that he/she has achieved, while, the soul is losing its

credits due to the act because, every karma is not associated with

the deham, but with the atman. In case of azhwars, their atma

ujjevanam(realization) has happened, but due to the law of this

materialistic world(leela vibhuthi) the lord let them live in this

world until the time when their karmas were zeored out - this

explains the azhwars crying out loud like "koovikkollum kaalam innum

kurugaadho" i.e "will not the time to take me back shorten more". I

will give the following examples to explain the same: Lord, in the

krishna avataram, had an encounter with "Durvasa Muni". This munivar

was a brahmanar by birth and was famous for his short temperment. I

don't want to get into more details on this encounter, but the end

result was that the Munivar cursed the lord that his death would be

triggered via his foot. The lord, accepted this curse, due to the

very reason that the Muni was a brahmana and that the respect had to

be given to that deham. In fact in Mahabharatha, that is how the lord

goes back to the nithya vibhuthi i.e the lord was lying down asleep

in a forest and a hunter who came that way saw his lotus feet and

though it was a deer's skin and hence shot and arrow. Using this as a

reason, the lord got out of his material body that he took and went

back to the Nithya Vibhuthi. Same is the story of Brughu. He went to

all the three leads of the world and cursed each one. Each one of

them accepted his curse due to his brahmanic deham that he had

attained.

 

So, AS PER THE SHASTRAS, the deham of a Shudran(which is superior to

the animals)

is inferior to the Vaishyan whose deham is inferior to the Kshatriyan

whose deham is inferior to the Brahmanan. This is as per the Karma

and is only for the dehams. This has nothing to do with the Atma

Ujjevanam(realization of the self). And if a person who got a

superior deham does something inappropriate to his/her body, then

that gets credited appropriately and is used to decide the

applicapibility of the next birth and if so, will be accounted in

that birth. This has NO relevance to whether that superior deham has

to be respected by others or not. Respect is for the deham and this

is dharmam. Disrespecting a deham due to its inferior birth is what

is SEVERELY condemned by our sampradayam. This is neither in our

Varnashrama Dharmam nor did our purvacharyas discriminate. It was

only due to the bhagavath sankalpam that down the lane people lost

the knowledge about their tradition, probably due to the "kali" that

we use as an excuse most of the time, that, people started the

discrimination etc. Well, it is a cycle, if it started, it will end!

 

Hence, regarding the applicability, only when we know better about

the varnashrama dharmam, the importance of it and the overall GLOBAL

picture, can we understand things better. That is why I keep telling

myself, "wait till the right time comes i.e until I understand

everything(right)". I feel, as an empty, I make more noise. First I

should fill up myself so as to overflow. So, before talking whether

it is right or wrong, I have learnt to first know it completely. This

way, a) It takes some time to know it completely b) Time is usually

the best healer, it teaches us a lot. I will stop with this post on

this subject and will come back to this when I learn about the

subject in its entirty.

 

No offense was intended to anyone by any means. Request everyone to

SEEK the right acharyan. Please don't give up. Try to get the right

one and start learning things under him. Don't see whether your

acharyan is doing right things or practising things etc. He has

achieved this "acharya" only because of bhagavath/bhagavatha

kadaksham/sankalpam. Do not underestimate the acharyan due to his

appearance and deeds. The deeds are for him. As a disciple our

responsibility is to be humble to him and keep faith in him and learn

under him.

 

"Uyya ninaivundagil ungurukkal tham padatthe

Vaiyum - Anbu thannai indha manilattheer - Meyyuraikken

Paiyaravil maayan paramapadham ungalukkam

Kaiyilangu nellikkani" - URM - 62 - Maamunigal

 

[if you want to attain salvation, just make sure you have faith

towards your Acharyan. I am telling you the truth, this way, it is

guaranteed that you would attain the Paramapadam]

 

"Thannaariyanukku Thaan Adimai Seivadhu Avan

Innadu thannil irukkum naal - anner

arindhum adhil aasayindri acharyanai

pirindhirupparar maname pesu" - URM - 64 - Maamunigal

 

[Doing service to our Acharyan as long as he is in this

(materialistic) world is the best service, and even after knowing the

greatness of this service, could anyone be, without having interest

in this service and be away from his acharyan?]

 

Yatheendra Pravanam Vandhe RAMYA Jamataram Munim

 

Adiyen Ramanuja Dasan,

Lakshmi Narasimhan

 

ramanuja, <purohit@b...> wrote:

>

> Dear Bhagavatars

>

> The classification according to birth is what is irrelevent. If one

wishes

> to use this classification in a limited spiritual sense then it can

be

> useful as a teaching tool. In the modern western world at least

children are

> brought up to believe that all humankind are equal, equal rights

for all,

> democracy etc - are we going to teach them to discriminate against

aothers

> based on their birth? A lot of right wing Americans would consider

that all

> members of the "dark" races are inferior - do you "brahmins" living

in their

> society accept that judgement unreservedly? - You should, because

you are

> living in THEIR society! (That's if you accept varna-ashrama dharma)

>

> Caste duties as per Manu and the others are what are irrelevent

because

> there are only a tiny minority of individuals that are practicing

their

> caste occupations as per Dharma Sastra. How many of the internet

active

> members of this forum are following their caste obligations?

>

> The simplified categorisation of caste duties was based upon a

> pre-industrial agrarian society - this no longer exists in the

lives of most

> of us, therefore the formulations of the sages on these issues is

no longer

> relevent.

>

> The only teaching which is still relevent is off course the loka-

dharma as

> taught in the dharma sastras which is applicable to all times and

places.

>

> Adiyen

>

> Srirama