On nirhethuka krupa -( vilakkAmai)

[Guest guest]

Dear All,

The thread on nirhEthuka krupa is interesting. Like Sri TCA venkatesan

pointed out, this is a rather delicate subject and one has to tread very

carefully, lest it results in a big misunderstandings...

 

This series of discussion reminded me of something. Don't know if this

has already been discussed. Anyway, the one concept about nirhEthuka krupa

that caught my attention rightaway is "vilakkAmai" (loosely translated as

non-denial). This is how it is described:

 

On the one hand our dear parama kAruNIga, sarva swathanthra perumAL is

trying in every possible way to reach us (n^ammai adaiya avan krushI

paNRAn!).

Being a sarva swathanthran (the one with unfettered independence and

limitless

power), why can't he just go ahead and do good to us? What stops him from

doing

that to us? Is there really anything that can stop him from doing

something

good to us?

 

At this point, we have to realize that, He created us the souls and gave

us the knowledge and gave us the freedom of choice (avar avar thama

thamadhu

aRivaRi vagai vagai...). It is up to us to use this freedom to make the

right

choce or not. We, having got this newfound freedom, develop an ahankAram

and

"assume and strongly believe" that we can take care of ourselves and so

subconsciously "DENY" His efforts to do good to us. He respects our freedom

and

if there is one thing that kinda stops Him, it would be this choice that

we

subconsciously (in some cases conscisouly) make to Deny Him. He has the

greatest

unquenchable desire to have us (... chUzhn^dhadhan^il periya en avA aRa

chUzhn^dhAyE!)

And He is trying to do everything He can to interpret even our

unintentional

acts and use that as an excuse (vyAjam) to reach and save us. (Long

while

back there was a discussion on the SVB 4'th prakaraNam, first choorNai.

Will

post the old write up if I have them... It is the most interesting part in

SVB, IMHO)

 

So, it is us who Deny His abundant flow of grace. If at all there is

anything

that we could do as an "effort" it is this "vilakkAmai". Once we realize

that

all along we have been denying His overflowig grace, and we undo it, thats

it.

The floodgates are open. He, like a child jumping into the hands of his

father,

would readily sweep you away with His grace.

 

The ONLY thing that we could do is Not do anything. If you look at this

carefully,

we don't absolutely drop everything. We do one little thing and that is we

don't

deny. Naturally this non-denial is not done as an effort to reach Him. It

is done

out of the sheer realization of utter helplessness AND the realization not

to deny

His flow of grace which is the only thing that can save us. This is

exactly how

draupadhi, kAkAsuran, gajEndran ... were saved. For a while, she was

holding on

to her dress, pulling it from him and trying to save herself. Then the

moment she

realizes that she is totally helpless, she leaves everything and raises

her arms

and performs prapaththi. Thats what happened in Gajendra mOksham and with

 

kAkAsuran as well.

 

Continuing on the "vilakkAmai", While explaining the meaning of

gOvin^dhA, sri vELukkudi swAmi says that sri krishNA went behind

the cows protecting them NOT because they asked him to do so, but

just because they didn't ask Him not to follow. (He would

humourously say, "andha mAdu saRRu ninnu, thirumbi pAththu, "onna

yAr en pinnAdi vara chonnA?" enRu kEttAl avanAla oNNum paNNa

mudiyAma poyidum. adhugaL oNNum kEkkAdhadhAla adhugaL pinnAdi pOy

samrakshaNam paNRAn.) That is more than enough reason for Him,

being the embodiment of overflowing grace, to go behind them and

offering protection.

 

 

Desikar in his munivAhana bhOgam, at the beginning, says,

"bhagavat kataakshaththaalE ... ayathna labdhamaana ... " meaning

that thiruppaaN, without any effort whatsoever received the

kataaksham of bhagavaan and received a vision of what previously

the great rishis only experienced in parama padham. The only yathnam

that thiruppANar did was that he did not deny His grace and let Him

sweep AzhvAr away. And look what happened!

 

Out of sheer joy of discussing this, I may have misquoted or

misunderstood some things. Please correct me.

 

AzhvAr emperumAnAr jIyar thiruvadigaLE SaraNam.

adiyEn

Vijay Triplicane

[Guest guest]

Dear Sri Vijay Triplicane,

 

Your posting is very thought provoking...It would be very good and

useful if you and other learned bhAgavathAs also can share what you

have heard from AchAryas on what exactly constitutes this "denial"

in our times - because obviously what was termed as denial for other

ages, such as adopting other upAyAs, do not obviously hold good for

our times.. If some examples/ situations in our lives that could be

classified as "denal" or "vilakkamai" (other than not undergoing

sadAchArya samAshrayanam) and some examples which can be classified

as not offering resistence to His grace, it would be most helpful.

 

rAmAnuja dAsi

 

> choce or not. We, having got this newfound freedom, develop an

> ahankAram

> and

> "assume and strongly believe" that we can take care of ourselves

> and so

> subconsciously "DENY" His efforts to do good to us. He respects

> our freedom

> and

> if there is one thing that kinda stops Him, it would be this

> choice that

> we

> subconsciously (in some cases conscisouly) make to Deny Him. He

> has the

> greatest

> unquenchable desire to have us (... chUzhn^dhadhan^il periya en

> avA aRa

> chUzhn^dhAyE!)

> And He is trying to do everything He can to interpret even our

> unintentional

> acts and use that as an excuse (vyAjam) to reach and save us.

> (Long

> while

> back there was a discussion on the SVB 4'th prakaraNam, first

> choorNai.

> Will

> post the old write up if I have them... It is the most interesting

> part in

> SVB, IMHO)

>

> So, it is us who Deny His abundant flow of grace. If at all

> there is

> anything

> that we could do as an "effort" it is this "vilakkAmai". Once we

> realize

> that

> all along we have been denying His overflowig grace, and we undo

> it, thats

> it.

> The floodgates are open. He, like a child jumping into the hands

> of his

> father,

> would readily sweep you away with His grace.

>

> The ONLY thing that we could do is Not do anything. If you look

> at this

> carefully,

> we don't absolutely drop everything. We do one little thing and

> that is we

> don't

> deny. Naturally this non-denial is not done as an effort to reach

> Him. It

> is done

> out of the sheer realization of utter helplessness AND the

> realization not

> to deny

> His flow of grace which is the only thing that can save us. This

> is

> exactly how

> draupadhi, kAkAsuran, gajEndran ... were saved. For a while, she

> was

> holding on

> to her dress, pulling it from him and trying to save herself.

> Then the

> moment she

> realizes that she is totally helpless, she leaves everything and

> raises

> her arms

> and performs prapaththi. Thats what happened in Gajendra mOksham

> and with

>

> kAkAsuran as well.

>

> Continuing on the "vilakkAmai", While explaining the meaning of

> gOvin^dhA, sri vELukkudi swAmi says that sri krishNA went behind

> the cows protecting them NOT because they asked him to do so, but

> just because they didn't ask Him not to follow. (He would

> humourously say, "andha mAdu saRRu ninnu, thirumbi pAththu, "onna

> yAr en pinnAdi vara chonnA?" enRu kEttAl avanAla oNNum paNNa

> mudiyAma poyidum. adhugaL oNNum kEkkAdhadhAla adhugaL pinnAdi pOy

> samrakshaNam paNRAn.) That is more than enough reason for Him,

> being the embodiment of overflowing grace, to go behind them and

> offering protection.

>

>

> Desikar in his munivAhana bhOgam, at the beginning, says,

> "bhagavat kataakshaththaalE ... ayathna labdhamaana ... " meaning

> that thiruppaaN, without any effort whatsoever received the

> kataaksham of bhagavaan and received a vision of what previously

> the great rishis only experienced in parama padham. The only

> yathnam

> that thiruppANar did was that he did not deny His grace and let Him

> sweep AzhvAr away. And look what happened!

>

> Out of sheer joy of discussing this, I may have misquoted or

> misunderstood some things. Please correct me.

>

> AzhvAr emperumAnAr jIyar thiruvadigaLE SaraNam.

> adiyEn

> Vijay Triplicane

>

>

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[Guest guest]

---

Dear Sriman Vijay,

 

Thank you for the post in which you have rightly mentioned that we

should not reject His krupA. If we simply accept His krupA, we can

concentrate on serving the bhAgavatas and thinking of His qualities.

 

In ramanuja, Vijay Triplicane <vijay.triplicane@h...>

wrote:

> ...

>

> This series of discussion reminded me of something. Don't know

if this

> has already been discussed. Anyway, the one concept about

nirhEthuka krupa

> that caught my attention rightaway is "vilakkAmai" (loosely

translated as

> non-denial). This is how it is described:

>

>

 

In my understanding, we do not choose Him but it is He who chooses

us, in our sampradAyam. This is in accordance with the upanishad

statement "yamEvaisha vruNute tEna labhyah..." which means He makes

Himself accessible to whoever He chooses. Also we do not have any

sort of freedom acoording to Sri Bhattar in ashtaSlOkI. I do not

think that Sri Nammalwar is speaking of some freedom in that pASuram

where "avar avar thama thamadhu.." comes as quoted by you.

 

Then does the question of partiality not come? If we believe that He

is our Master, we need not worry. It is for Him to keep His property

wherever He wants. If we do not believe in Him, then also no probs

since He does not exist for us!

 

Once He enters our mind, we need not worry since we are chosen.

 

AzhvAr emperumAnAr jIyar thiruvadigaLE SaraNam.

adiyEn

Vishnu

[Guest guest]

Dear Sri Vishnu,

By nature, the jIvAs created by perumAL have knowledge and they

'can' use it whichever way they want. SvAmi nammAzhvAr in his "

avar avar..." talks about how these jIvAs use their knowledge and

think that the lesser gods can provide what they want and worship

them. Our dear perumAL who is the LORD of all these demigods,

resides in them (antharyAmi) and grants the wishes of the

adhikARis. Let me briefly talk about the pAsuram first.

 

Each and every individual jIvA/adhikAri (avar avar)

use their knowledge and do things accordingly(thama thamadhu aRivu aRi vagai

)

They think those other Lords (avar avar)

as their SvAmi (iRaiyavar ena)

and worship them (adi adaivargaL)

 

Those Lords being worshipped by the adhikArIs (avar avar iRaiyavar)

are Not incapable of giving them what they wanted ( kuRaivu ilar )

(Those lords give the adhikArIs what they asked for, WHY? How is it?)

 

Our dear perumAL, who is The Lord of all lords/sarva svAmi (iRaiyavar )

makes sure that those adhikARis (avar avar)

based on their vidhi (vidhi vazhi)

get what they want by being the antharyAmi of these lords (adaiya

n^inRanaRE)

 

The objective of the pAsuram is mainly to point out that the rakshaNam

of all the chetanas/achetanas are all completely done by our sarva svAmi.

This is not talking about the nirhethuka krupa of perumAL at all. The only

reason why I quoted this is for the first line where he says "thama

thamadhu

aRivu aRi vagai" - they do things based on how their knowledge dictates

them.

Based on their knowledge the adhikAris also think that they can take care of

 

themselves independently. This is an absolute swarUpa virOdham, which their

knowledge doesn't point out! That is why, having this false sense of

independence, they don't realize the need for perumAL's krupa and "deny" His

 

overflowing grace. They are in fact making an effort to stop His grace from

saving them. This false sense of independence is the classical virOdhi.

'False' is the keyword here. As you have quoted from ashtaslOki by Sri

Bhattar,

we do not have any sort of freedom. That is the truth. But we fail to see

the

truth. In fact at the end of the pAsuram, he says that even those demigods

are

not independent and they act according to our dear perumAL.

 

AzhvAr emperumAnAr jIyar thiruvadigaLE araNam,

adiyEn,

-Vijay Triplicane

[Guest guest]

Dear Sriman Vijay,

 

Thank you for the clarification. I enjoyed the explanation of the

pASuram a lot.

 

Best regards

Vishnu

 

-- In ramanuja, Vijay Triplicane

<vijay.triplicane@h...> wrote:

> Dear Sri Vishnu,

> By nature, the jIvAs created by perumAL have knowledge and they

> 'can' use it whichever way they want. SvAmi nammAzhvAr in his "

> avar avar..." talks about how these jIvAs use their knowledge and

> think that the lesser gods can provide what they want and worship

> them. Our dear perumAL who is the LORD of all these demigods,

> resides in them (antharyAmi) and grants the wishes of the

> adhikARis. Let me briefly talk about the pAsuram first.

>

> Each and every individual jIvA/adhikAri (avar avar)

> use their knowledge and do things accordingly(thama thamadhu aRivu

aRi vagai

> )

> They think those other Lords (avar avar)

> as their SvAmi (iRaiyavar ena)

> and worship them (adi adaivargaL)

>

> Those Lords being worshipped by the adhikArIs (avar avar iRaiyavar)

> are Not incapable of giving them what they wanted ( kuRaivu ilar )

> (Those lords give the adhikArIs what they asked for, WHY? How is

it?)

>

> Our dear perumAL, who is The Lord of all lords/sarva svAmi

(iRaiyavar )

> makes sure that those adhikARis (avar avar)

> based on their vidhi (vidhi vazhi)

> get what they want by being the antharyAmi of these lords (adaiya

> n^inRanaRE)

>

> The objective of the pAsuram is mainly to point out that the

rakshaNam

> of all the chetanas/achetanas are all completely done by our sarva

svAmi.

> This is not talking about the nirhethuka krupa of perumAL at all.

The only

> reason why I quoted this is for the first line where he says "thama

> thamadhu

> aRivu aRi vagai" - they do things based on how their knowledge

dictates

> them.

> Based on their knowledge the adhikAris also think that they can

take care of

>

> themselves independently. This is an absolute swarUpa virOdham,

which their

> knowledge doesn't point out! That is why, having this false sense

of

> independence, they don't realize the need for perumAL's krupa

and "deny" His

>

> overflowing grace. They are in fact making an effort to stop His

grace from

> saving them. This false sense of independence is the classical

virOdhi.

> 'False' is the keyword here. As you have quoted from ashtaslOki by

Sri

> Bhattar,

> we do not have any sort of freedom. That is the truth. But we fail

to see

> the

> truth. In fact at the end of the pAsuram, he says that even those

demigods

> are

> not independent and they act according to our dear perumAL.

>

> AzhvAr emperumAnAr jIyar thiruvadigaLE araNam,

> adiyEn,

> -Vijay Triplicane

[Guest guest]

Sri:

Srimathe Ramanujaya nama:

Dear Vinjamuri Vishnu,

I agree whole-heartedly with your understanding of

nirhEtuka krpa:-) I personally feel that qualitatively and as well as

quantitatively speaking,nirhEtukam dominates and is way off by orders

of magnitude from sahEtukam that it does no longer make "any" sense

to talk about or give credits to sahEtukam!!! He only gave us the

body,mind and the intellect and we give it back to Him as our gift

(through upAyAs). It is like the guy who stole the jewels of

SriRanganATha in the night and in the broad day light declaring that

it's his gift to the Lord! What a "shameless" act! When His grace

flows(torrential downpour), even those mud pots which are upside down

(not to receive His grace) can get toppled by the force of His

grace/downpour and get filled up to the brim if He wants/chooses the

pot to be the receiver or the pots that are upright facing to receive

His grace can get rolled over upside down also if He does not want:-)

He knows when to shower His grace on us.

AzhvAr emperumAnAr jIyar thiruvadigaLE sharaNam

NC Nappinnai

 

> In my understanding, we do not choose Him but it is He who chooses

> us, in our sampradAyam. This is in accordance with the upanishad

> statement "yamEvaisha vruNute tEna labhyah..." which means He makes

> Himself accessible to whoever He chooses. Also we do not have any

> sort of freedom acoording to Sri Bhattar in ashtaSlOkI. I do not

> think that Sri Nammalwar is speaking of some freedom in thatpASuram

> where "avar avar thama thamadhu.." comes as quoted by you.

>

> Then does the question of partiality not come? If we believe that

He

> is our Master, we need not worry. It is for Him to keep His

property

> wherever He wants. If we do not believe in Him, then also no probs

> since He does not exist for us!

>

> Once He enters our mind, we need not worry since we are chosen.

[Guest guest]

When His grace

> flows(torrential downpour), even those mud pots which are upside

down

> (not to receive His grace) can get toppled by the force of His

> grace/downpour and get filled up to the brim if He wants/chooses

the

> pot to be the receiver or the pots that are upright facing to

receive

> His grace can get rolled over upside down also if He does not want:-

)

> He knows when to shower His grace on us.

>

 

Dear Ms Nappinnai,

 

The statement that He can reverse His grace (which we hope He would

not), reminds me of the Alwar Pasuram quoted by my Acharya

(nAnmuhan..?)

 

Regards

Vishnu

[Guest guest]

Sri:

Srimathe Ramanujaya nama:

Dear Vinjamuri Srimahavishnu(I love this name)

 

> The statement that He can reverse His grace (which we hope He would

> not), reminds me of the Alwar Pasuram quoted by my Acharya

> (nAnmuhan..?)

 

What I meant was "everything depends on His grace". In the process of

explaining this "unconditional grace",if I had used wrong examples

please overlook or correct:-) I was thinking about Bharatha's plea to

SriRama and the former's plea wasn't accepted by the latter/PerumAL.

I wrote that example in that context! I don't know the meanings of

AzhvAr pAsurams that you quoted!

 

AzhvAr emperumAnAr jIyar thiruvadigaLE sharaNam

NC Nappinnai