Nirhetuka Kripa and Freewill according to the Bhagavad Gita

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Sri:

 

Srimate Ramanujaya Nama:

 

 

 

Respected adiyArs,

 

 

 

In the Bhagavad Gita, just 3 shlokas before the famous Charama Shloka, Perumal

says (18.63)

 

 

 

iti te jnanam akhyatam

guhyad guhyataram maya

vimrsyaitad asesena

yathecchasi tatha kuru

 

 

 

Meaning: Thus I have explained to you the most confidential of all knowledge.

Deliberate on this fully, and then do what you wish to do.

 

 

 

Here Krishna gives the Choice to the Jeevatma, Arjuna being the representation

of the Jeevas. Kindly notice that this statement totally contradicts the concept

of Nirhetuka Kripa. If one quotes the Charama Shloka, in which Lord Krishna asks

the Jeevatma for total surrender and that is the concept of Prapatti, one should

also realize that this Shloka is a prelude to the Charama Shloka, Krishna says,

in the next verse (BG 18.64 ), “Because you are My very dear friend, I am

speaking to you the most confidential part of knowledge. Hear this from Me, for

it is for your benefit”. And then goes on with the Charama Shloka.

 

 

 

So the crux of the issue is this: Perumal gives the choice to the Jeevatma,

regarding what to do and what not to do. Meaning, the Jeevatma has free-will

(definitely!!). How are we to understand that we don’t have any freewill, and

Moksha is 100% dependent on His will, without not even an iota of our effort??

 

 

 

I request the Bhagavatas in this forum to kindly address this query of mine.

 

 

 

AzhwAr emperumAnAr Jeeyar ThiruvadigaLE Saranam.

 

 

 

Dasan,

 

 

 

Kidambi Soundararajan.

 

 

 

 

 

The New Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Vimal,

I think Sri Lakshmi Narasimhan's posting (27 Apr) about the nirhEthukam

and sahEthukam from the perspective of both the jIvan and PerumAL clearly

addresses your question. With this Bhagavad gIta slokam perspective if you

go back and read that posting, it would make it clearer, I think.

adiyEn,

-Vijay Triplicane

[Guest guest]

Sri:

Srimathe Ramanujaya nama:

Dear Soundar,

My suggesion to you is to read Sri Parthasarathy Iyengar's

posts on freewill,& nirhEtuka krpa. He is gifted with very good

analytical reasoning and writes very lucidly quoting so much from

TiruvAymozhi,SVB,AH etc that any fool(with no formal background in

either methodology or sampradAyam) can understand. I have enormously

benefitted through my interaction with him that I have no words to

express my gratitude towards him. It is because of him,I am now

happily sailing through SVB.

 

Sriman Lakshmi Narasimhan quoting "some isolated one or

two slokas" from AcArya Hrdhayam in no way supports sahEtukam(from

the perspective of the Lord). AH,out and out only talks about

paragata swIkAram(the unconditional grace of the Lord on His

subjects). Sri Azhagiya MaNavALa PerumAL NAyanAr only highlights the

greatness of the Lord's kalyANa guNas(Suthram 185 quoted by Lakshmi

Narasimhan)and does not support the sahEtukam perspective from the

Lord's side. Even when the jivAtma does utter the name of the Lord

unintentionally,the Lord's "quality" is such that He thinks the

jIvAtmA only referred to Him. The STRESS IS ON THE LORD'S QUALITY AND

NOT ON THE EFFORT OF THE JIVATMA. Both the brothers(Sri PL and Sri

AMPN)without any ambiguity,clearly explain their respective works. It

is a very subtle point that you need to catch.

 

> Meaning: Thus I have explained to you the most confidential of all

> knowledge. Deliberate on this fully, and then do what you wish to

> do.

 

First of all BG is a part of MahabhAratha and you should know the

grand scheme behind it. Refer to

 

SVB 5: ithihAsa srEshtamAna SrirAmAyaNaththAl siRai irundhavaL(sIta)

ERRam sollugiRadhu; mahAbhArathaththAl thUdhu pOnavan(KrShNa) ERRam

sollugiRadhu.

 

SVB 14: aRiyAdha arThangaLai adaiya aRiviththu AcArya krthyaththaiyum

(role of an AcArya), puruShakAra krthyaththaiyum(role of Mahalakshmi

as the mediatrix),upAya krthyaththaiyum thAnE ERittuk koLLugaiyAlE

mahAbhArathaththil upAya vaibhavam solliRRAyiRRu.

 

[Lord KrShNa assumed all the three roles,namely,as the (i)AcArya

who imparts the spiritual knowledge unknown to the disciple,(ii)

recommendatory role of the Divine Mother,through whose grace the

disciple is ushered at Lord's doorstep (iii)offering Himself as the

sole refuge for the finale "salvation"[mAm Ekam sharaNam vraja...mA

shuca:]

 

You seem to forget the point that it is the Lord who chose Arjuna and

through Arjuna gave the Bhagavad Gita/mOksha Dharma to all

(sentient/non-sentient). Isn't this itself an indication of nirhEtuka

krpa of the Lord??? If this is still not clear,let us go to 18:64

 

> Here Krishna gives the Choice to the Jeevatma, Arjuna being the

> representation of the Jeevas. Kindly notice that this statement

> totally contradicts the concept of Nirhetuka Kripa. If one quotes

> the Charama Shloka, in which Lord Krishna asks the Jeevatma for

> total surrender and that is the concept of Prapatti, one should

> also realize that this Shloka is a prelude to the Charama Shloka,

> Krishna says, in the next verse (BG 18.64 ), "Because you are My

> very dear friend, I am speaking to you the most confidential part

> of knowledge. Hear this from Me, for it is for your benefit". And

> then goes on with the Charama Shloka.

 

It doesn't contradict. The Lord only first said that "you

are My dear friend and hence I'm giving you this Supreme

knowledge...". BTW,do you know how Arjuna treats SriKrShNa after the

end of the first day during war? The Lord gave Arjuna(disciple) the

Supreme knowledge and Arjuna treats the Lord(AcAryA)like a servant!

Arjuna contradicted the fourth prakaraNa(of SVB)which details "carama

upAyam"(AcAryA as the ultimate upAyam, which in no way contradicts

the Lord being the upAyam,and "repayment to the AcArya" is possible

ONLY IF THERE WERE TWO LORDS AND FOUR VIBHUTIS!!! This is the

greatness of AcAryA(Cf BG 4:34).

 

Even after listening to BG,Arjuna cries over abhimanyu's

death and has some erroneous thoughts regarding his acts. Arjuna only

got back the kingdom but didn't receive the full benefits of carama

(ultimate) slOkam(verse). Even if you assume that the jIvAtma has

free will,who supplied the jIvAtma the body,mind,intellect etc? You

can refer to Thathva thrayam(26-37). Although the doership belongs to

the individual soul,the individual doership is dependent on the Lord

because the states like thinking(j~nAna),desiring(cikIrsha),striving

(prayathna) are controlled by the Lord and not possible to blossom

into action without His assent. KrShNa tells Arjuna[bG 11:33]

that "bhIShma,DhrONa.. are all slain by Me already;you are only

acting as an instrument".

 

> So the crux of the issue is this: Perumal gives the choice to the

> Jeevatma, regarding what to do and what not to do. Meaning, the

> Jeevatma has free-will (definitely!!). How are we to understand

> that we don't have any freewill, and Moksha is 100% dependent on

> His will, without not even an iota of our effort??

 

As far redemption is concerned,the jIvAtmA has no

freewill. To illustrate the Lord's greatness,I would like to share a

personal example from my father's experience. My father used to teach

Mathematics and would bring students exams papers. Sometimes He had

asked me to correct their papers. Although I have a Master's degree

in Math from IITM,my father would write down the rules of correction

and would even tell me not to reflect my arrogant knowledge on the

poor student while correcting[knowledge(comes first) is different

from wisdom(comes second)!]. My father goes out of his way to give

marks for the student who had done the exam so badly that he doesn't

deserve to pass in the eyes of some people(who strictly go by

knowledge). I myself know how many undeserving students had cleared

the final board/college exams. My father would say that "poor

student,we don't know what his problems/difficulties are or his

background and so wouldn't want to spoil his life by flunking him". I

used to wonder "if my father(a mere mortal)worries so much about some

student's life and takes the pain to pass him somehow,how much the

Lord would worry about His subjects/possessions and would strive to

liberate them or do anything for them". Many such experiences have

only increased my faith in Him and also nirhEtuka krpa.

 

Don't read Bhagavad Gita as an isolated subject! Remember that it is

the Lord who offered Himself to act as a messenger. Is not this an

indication of nirhEtuka krpa???

 

Try to catch hold of the thathva thrayam of Sri PiLLai lOkAcAryAr.

Any wrongly conveyed message is my error and seek forgiveness.

 

AzhvAr emperumAnAr jIyar thiruvadigaLE sharaNam

NC Nappinnai

[Guest guest]

ramanuja, vimalkumar ranganathan

<panardasan> wrote:

>

> Sri:

>

> Srimate Ramanujaya Nama:

>

>

>

> Respected adiyArs,

>

>

>

> In the Bhagavad Gita, just 3 shlokas before the famous Charama

Shloka, Perumal says (18.63)

>

>

>

> iti te jnanam akhyatam

> guhyad guhyataram maya

> vimrsyaitad asesena

> yathecchasi tatha kuru

>

>

>

> Meaning: Thus I have explained to you the most confidential of all

knowledge. Deliberate on this fully, and then do what you wish to do.

>

>

 

Dear Sriman Soundararajan,

 

Sriman Parthasarathy Iyengar Swami has already answered your question.

I am just sharing my views.

 

In Ramanuja Bhashya for Gita, what Sri Ramanuja says for this Sloka

is: "You follow any of the three yOgas already preached by Me i.e.

Bhakti, karma, gnAna as you like". So here there is NO QUESTION of

God giving choice to the jeeva to accept Him or not to accept. He is

simply telling arjuna to live a nArAyaNa conscious life by following

any of the three yOgas. However, in the explanation for the charama

Sloka, Sri Bhattar says he is neither able to practise any of these

yOgas nor leave them (as upAyas to reach Him), as he has realized

that he is ALWAYS UNDER the Lord's control.

 

Also this Sloka 18.63 is not a prelude to charama Sloka as you said.

But the next Sloka is the prelude where He says "Again I am going to

tell you the topmost secret".

 

Just before the Sloka 18.63 quoted by you, in 18.58, Sri Krishna

tells arjuna "Focus your thoughts on Me. You will be delivered ONLY

out of my grace (as interpreted by Ramanuja). If you do not listen

out of you ahankAra you will perish." So, Krishna is cautioning us

against our worst enemy i.e. our ahankAra. So there is no question of

giving us choice. He is rather advising s to follow Him.

 

In subsequent verses, Krishna furhter clarifies that you will be made

to fight, even if you dont listen to Me out of ahankAra. Also He says

it is the Lord seated in the hearts of jIvas Who is making them act

out of His power. He advises arjuna to take shelter in such ISwara.

 

In 11.33, Sri Krishna advises arjuna to be a mere instrument in His

hands (nimitta mAtram bhava savya sAchin). Also Krishna makes fun of

arjuna as he adresses him as the person capable of using the bow with

left hand "savya sAchI". In Ramanuja Bhashya, swami rAmAnuja

says "consider yourelf to be a weapon in My hand..". This is the

concept of achithvath pAratantryam or the jIva considering himself to

be like a non-sentient object in the hands of the Lord.

 

Now I will ask ou one question. If somebody knows that SrImannArAyaNa

is supreme, will he not have faith in Him? Will he still say "I know

He is my deliverer but still do not want to believe in Him"? So it is

a matter of conviction and not a mattter of choice, I feel. The

problem comes when we think we have to do something to get near to

that great Lord. Instead, we can have complete faith in Him and be

happy.

 

adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan

Vishnu

 

 

> Here Krishna gives the Choice to the Jeevatma, Arjuna being the

representation of the Jeevas. Kindly notice that this statement

totally contradicts the concept of Nirhetuka Kripa. If one quotes the

Charama Shloka, in which Lord Krishna asks the Jeevatma for total

surrender and that is the concept of Prapatti, one should also

realize that this Shloka is a prelude to the Charama Shloka, Krishna

says, in the next verse (BG 18.64 ), "Because you are My very dear

friend, I am speaking to you the most confidential part of knowledge.

Hear this from Me, for it is for your benefit". And then goes on with

the Charama Shloka.

>

>

>

> So the crux of the issue is this: Perumal gives the choice to the

Jeevatma, regarding what to do and what not to do. Meaning, the

Jeevatma has free-will (definitely!!). How are we to understand that

we don't have any freewill, and Moksha is 100% dependent on His will,

without not even an iota of our effort??

>

>

>

> I request the Bhagavatas in this forum to kindly address this query

of mine.

>

>

>

> AzhwAr emperumAnAr Jeeyar ThiruvadigaLE Saranam.

>

>

>

> Dasan,

>

>

>

> Kidambi Soundararajan.

>

>

>

>

>

> The New Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed

[Guest guest]

Sri:

Srimathe Ramanujaya nama:

Dear Soundar,

Let's see only BG here,say from slokas 18:57-66.

 

cEthasA sarvakarmANi mayI sannyasya mathpara: |

budhDhiyOgam upAshrithya mac ciththa: sathatham bhava || 18:57

 

One should leave all acts -- together with the agency and object --

to God because one knows that one is ruled by the God;and while

realizing that it is God who is to be attained, and in the spirit

performing one's acts and devoting oneself to this budhDhiyOga,one

should always keep God in mind. In other words, the Lord tells

Arjuna "relinquish all your acts to Me with your mind,be absorbed in

Me,embrace the yOga of the spirit and always have your mind on Me".

 

mac ciththa: sarvadhurgANi mathprasAdhAth thariShyasi |

aTha cEth thvam ahankArAn na shrOShyasi vinangkshyasi || 18:58

 

While being absorbed in God and performing all acts,one will escape

from all dangers of samsAra by the "grace of God". When,however,one

refrains from listening to God's word,because one thinks that one

knows everything that ought and ought not to be done,then one will be

lost;for God alone knows what all living beings ought and ought not

to do,and He is their law-giver. The Lord says "with your mind on

Me,you will,by My grace,overcome all hazards;but when you are too

self-centered to listen,you will perish".

 

yadh ahankAram Ashrithya na yOthsya ithi manyasE |

miThyaiSha vyavasAyas thE prakrthis thvAm niyOkshyathi || 18:59

 

When Arjuna is under the delusion that he knows of his own accord

what is good for him and what not, and not hedding God's command,

decides not to fight,then this independent decision of his will be

fruitless,for his prakrthi will make him submit to God's command,

although his mind is grieved by the fact that independence is only of

God. The Lord says "if you self-centeredly decide that you will not

fight,your decision is meaningless anyhow:your nature will command

you".

 

Due to some time constraints,i will continue tomorrow:-) Sorry to

leave in midway. Please forgive me for all errors.

 

AzhvAr emperumAnAr jIyar thiruvadigaLE sharaNam

NC Nappinnai

[Guest guest]

Sri:

Srimathe Ramanujaya nama:

Dear Soundar,

 

svabhAva jEna kaunthEya nibadhDha: svEna karmaNA |

karthum nEcchasi yan mOhAth kariShyasy avashOpi thath || 18:60

 

The natural duty of kshatriya is to fight. Bound by this duty,he will

be unable to suffer the enemies' insults and he iwll engage them in

the battle which he now does not want to, out of ignorance. Lord

says "kaunthEya,you will inevitably do(springs from your own

nature/kshatriya) what you do not want to do out of ignorance".

 

iShvara sarvabhUthAnAm hrdhEshErjuna thiShTathi |

bhrAmayan sarvabhUthAni yanthrAruDAni mAyayA || 18:61

 

All beings are forced by the Lord to follow their prakrthi in

accordance with their previous karman; Lord says "The Lord of all

creatures is inside their hearts and with His skill revolves all the

creatures mounted on His water wheel".

 

thamEva sharaNam gaccha sarvabhAvEna bhAratha |

thath prasAdhAth parAm shAnthim sThAnam prApsyasi shAshvatham ||

18:62

 

Arjuna should be completely submitted to the Lord. If not,then he

will still have to fight the battle inevitably,for his

ignorance,stimulated by God's mAyA,will make him do so.

Therefore he should fight teh battle in the manner which God has

explained. Then God's grace will make him attain supreme shAnthi --

the release from all bonds of all acts -- and the eternal end.

 

Now comes your verse!

ithi thE j~nAnam AkhyAtham guhyAdh guhyatharam mayA |

vimrshya Ethadh ashEShENa yaThEcchasi thaThA kuru || 18:63

 

Lord says "reflect upon this knowledge I have propounded to you,this

mystery of all mysteries 'in its entirety' and then do as you are

pleased to do".

 

What has been set forth here by the Lord? The knowledge(karma,j~nAna

and bhakthi) which is to be acquired by the aspirant to release.

Considering it in its entirety one should do what one wishes to do as

per his qualification(varNa); one can't practise whatever one wants

but based on one's qualification,one can follow the paths explained

by the Lord in all the previous slokas(say till 18:62). Basically you

choose one of the three paths(as per your qualification) and lead a

life thiking about God and His devotees and serve the same. If it

satisfies yyou,you can think you have 'LIMITED' freewill:-) Can a cub

of a Lion be like a Deer?

 

sarva guhyathamam bhUya: shrNu mE paramam vaca: |

iShto'si mE dhrDam ithi thathO vakshyAmi thE hitham || 18:64

 

It has been said[cf BG 9:1] that bhakthiyOga is the most secret of

all secrets because it is the best way to salvation. Now Arjuna

should hear God's final word on bhakthi; God speaks this word to

Arjuna because Arjuna is very dear to Him and for Arjuna's benefit.

 

manmanA bhava madh bhakthO madhyAji mAm namaskuru |

mAm EvaiShyasi sathyam thE prathijAnE priyo'si mE || 18:65

 

Arjuna should practise that continuous representation(should be like

a continuous flow of oil). He should love God excessively and

practise bhakthiyOga while being completely absorbed in the worship

of God and humiliate himself before God. If he does so,then God

promises that he shall attain God for he is very dear to God,He can

not endure being separated from him and hence makes him reach Himself.

 

carama slOkam:

sarvaDharmAn parithyajya mAm Ekam sharaNam vraja |

aham thvA sarvapApEbhyO mOkshaiShyAmi mA suca: || 18:66

 

EmperumAnAr gives two interpretations in GBh:

(1) While performing all DharmA - i.e., karma,j~nAna and bhakthiyOga

which are means of attaining supreme bliss - at his option according

to his qualifications,and at the same time relinquishing their

result,his agency etc., he should realize that "God alone is the

agent,the object,the means and the end". The God will release him

from all evil incompatible with his attainment of God,evil piled up

by endless wrong activities since time immemorial. Therefore he

should not despair.

 

(2) But those who are not eligible(as per varNa)or those who find

difficult to practise any of the abovementioned yOgAs,need not

despair. They simply have to take refuge in the Lord as the sole

means and the end. This is prapatti. This is not an act to be

performed but a state of realization. Note prapatti is the shortest

route and the other three are longer routes and hence none of the

four is a means for salvation! Lord alone is the Means as well as the

End.

 

AzhvAr emperumAnAr jIyar thiruvadigaLE sharaNam

NC Nappinnai