Guest guest Posted May 19, 2003 Report Share Posted May 19, 2003 SRIMATHE RAMANUJAYA NAMAHA APPAN THIRUVADIGALE SARANAM Dear Vimal Kumar, Now you are in the position of Arjuna. Arjuna was confused with his physical body and was worried that he had to kill his relatives. To relieve him of this confusion ( for the benefit of us also) Lord Krishna expounded Bhagavat Gita. Actually body is the instrument of soul or Jeeva. This jeeva, entire Prakruti are the property of Easwara or Emperuman. We are functioning in his Leela Vibhuthi. If we are to exercise our choice or as you say 'free will' , to toil in the samsara you are free to do so. After hearing the true nature of Atma and its relation with Easwara by way of Bhagavad Gita, Arjuna will have to excercise his choice to do his duty, as a Kshatriya to fight. He has to surrender to Lord totally without doubting as to which path he should follow. This action was completed in sloka 18.73 Atma is not independent. The choice, as you consider as free will is likely to land you in trouble. On the other hand if you do your duty with the 3 types of renounciation I am not the doer of this action...It is Lord;s I do not aspire for the result of this action. ..It is Lord's I do do not have attachment with this action. Then it is for the Lord to worry about our progress. Let us have a look at Sree Vachana Bhooshanam Sutras. 62 and 70. SUTRA 62. AAPATHAI POKKIKOLLUKIROMENRU BRAMITHU ATHAI VILAIVITHHU KOLLATHU OZHIKAIYEE VENDUVATHU Let us not get confused that we are avoiding trouble and invite the same by our actions. SUTRA 70 PRAPTHAVUM PRABHAKANUM PRAPTHIKKU UGAPPAVANUM AVANE. It is the Lord who ultimately gets a Gnani or Muktha jeeva. It is the Lord who guides the jeeva for the release of Jeeva It is the Lord who is pleased that a jeeva got its release. So, it is for jeeva to exercishis choice or as you say 'free will' in the right direction. He will certainly do so, if he( Atma) has got the Atma Gnam correctly. Regarding NIRHETHUKA KRUPAI. Did Arjuna ask for a lecture on Bhavad Gita? Why he was selected by the Lord? All the Pandavas surrendered to Krishna for the sake kingdom. But, Arjuna was a little more attached to Krishna and the Lord krishna decided to select Arjuna That is Lord's will He gave lectures on BG .to Arjuna and we also enjoy. Adiyen Ramanuja dasan, T.Parthasarathy _ Impress your clients! Send mail from me @ mycompany.com . Just Rs.1499/year. Click http://www.rediffmailpro.com to know more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 19, 2003 Report Share Posted May 19, 2003 Sri: Respected Sri Thirunararyanan Swami, While going through your mail, I had some difficulties in understanding some points: " On the other hand if you do your duty with the 3 types of renounciation I am not the doer of this action...It is Lord;s I do not aspire for the result of this action. ..It is Lord's I do do not have attachment with this action. Then it is for the Lord to worry about our progress" Does that mean one can perform even sinful actions, and assume that lord is the doer of that action?? What exactly does "duty" mean, then?? Are we to assume that every action that we do (be it good actions or sinful reactions) is done by the Lord Himself?? Then, won't it be an excuse for sinners to do whatever they want to do?? " So, it is for jeeva to exercishis choice or as you say 'free will' in the right direction. He will certainly do so, if he( Atma) has got the Atma Gnam correctly." Swamin, so by the preceding statements and also the above statement, does your kind self agree that the Atma does have freewill?? " Regarding NIRHETHUKA KRUPAI. Did Arjuna ask for a lecture on Bhavad Gita? Why he was selected by the Lord? All the Pandavas surrendered to Krishna for the sake kingdom. But, Arjuna was a little more attached to Krishna and the Lord krishna decided to select Arjuna That is Lord's will He gave lectures on BG .to Arjuna and we also enjoy." If Arjuna, even after listening to the truth from none other than God himself is still lamenting for the loss of his son, does that mean that Perumal had not completely showered his Nirhetuka Kripai on Arjuna?? Meaning, how can any Mumukshu (or even an ordinary soul), even after getting Perumaal's Nirhetuka Kripai, still lament for material losses?? Did Arjuna finally COMPLETELY surrender to the Lord (Prapatti)?? If so, why did he lament for his son's death?? One can assume that the state of Prapatti is not perfect, am I correct?? On the other hand, if Arjuna did not surrender completely, what is the use of Perumaal's Nirhetuka Kripa on Arjuna, and can there be "partial Krupa"?? I request you to kindly address my queries. Kindly pardon me for any offences committed by adiyen or observed by your kind self. AzhwAr emperumAnAr Jeeyar thiruvadigLE Saranam. Dasan, Kidambi Soundararajan. The New Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 20, 2003 Report Share Posted May 20, 2003 Sri: Srimathe Ramanujaya nama: Dear Soundar, I'm sure that Sri Parthasarathy iyengar would give you a reply as and when time permits him. In the meantime,I thought I will try to address some of your questions! I reserve the detailed one for tomorrow as I don't have AH right with me(wrt partial krpa). Also define what you mean by freewill? Do you mean that you can do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING without any external help??? > Does that mean one can perform even sinful actions, and assume > that lord is the doer of that action?? What exactly does "duty" > mean, then?? Are we to assume that every action that we do (be it > good actions or sinful reactions) is done by the Lord Himself?? > Then, won't it be an excuse for sinners to do whatever they want > to do?? when you say that "one can perform even sinful actions" you are under the delusion that "you are the body". Refer to BG 3:27. prakrthE: kriyamANAni guNai: karmANi sarvasha: | ahankAra vimUDAthmA karthA(a)ham ithi manyathE || Whatever actions that the jIvAtma performs is under the "influence of and in association with the guNAs/senses". But the "unrealised soul" thinks that "he is the doer". This doesn't mean that the doership vests in guNAs! If you think so,it will be fatal. So,the doership belongs to the individual but the agency/action of the individual is dependent on the Lord. > Swamin, so by the preceding statements and also the above > statement, does your kind self agree that the Atma does have > freewill?? What happens to the jIvAtma in a "state of coma"? What happens to its consciousness??? Think over it in connection with freewill and write in your next post. The individual soul,as knower(j~nAthA),doer(karthA)and enjoyer (bhOkthA),possesses a consciousness,which expresses itself in states like thinking(j~nAna),desiring etc. This consciousness is dependent on the Lord! When the consciousness is lost,there is NO ACTION! Do people in the state of coma realize/recognize others and do their routines(be it mundane/spiritual)? I don't know if there are any cases of AcAryAs in coma and what happened to their spiritual level even in that state. But I have heard(and read)that one ISKCON devotee went into coma and those days she couldn't think of the Lord KrShNA. Why? > If Arjuna, even after listening to the truth from none other than > God himself is still lamenting for the loss of his son, does that > mean that Perumal had not completely showered his Nirhetuka Kripai > on Arjuna?? Meaning, how can any Mumukshu (or even an ordinary > soul), even after getting Perumaal's Nirhetuka Kripai, still lament > for material losses?? KrShNA's AcArya was Sandipini,who knowing that KrShNA is the Lord sought the Lord for alpa/cheap puruShArTham(he asked the Lord to revive his dead son!). There is a AcAryA-sishya lakshaNam and something is lacking here. The Lord was disappointed by the AcAryA. Just like He chose Sandipini as His AcArya,He chose Arjuna to impart the knowledge to all. > Did Arjuna finally COMPLETELY surrender to the Lord (Prapatti)?? > If so, why did he lament for his son's death?? One can assume that > the state of Prapatti is not perfect, am I correct?? On the other > hand, if Arjuna did not surrender completely, what is the use of > Perumaal's Nirhetuka Kripa on Arjuna, and can there be "partial > Krupa"?? Arjuna was not a mumukshu/prapanna! He didn't obey 18:66 to the core! AcArya(KrShNA),out of unconditional grace bestowed the supreme knowledge on the disciple/Arjuna. Now let's see what our Sri PiLLai lOkAcArya says in SVB. The last/fourth prakaraNam of SVB is very beautiful and highlights the greatness of the AcAryA as the means and the end. You can read the entire prakaraNam(jewel). SVB 428: AcAryan iruvarkkum upakArakan. SVB 429: Ishvaranukku(lord) sheShavasthuvai(jIvAtma) upakariththAn; cEthananukku(jIvAtma) shEShiyai(lord) upakariththAn. SVB 430: Ishvaran thAnum AcAryathvaththai Asai pattirukkum. The AcArya is the common benefactor benefitting alike the Lord/Master and the Subject/servant. The subject,who was all along straying away from and evading the grip of the Lord,despite His herculean tasks to redeem teh former,is restored to Him by the AcArya duly chastened and properly equipped fo rthe final rapport between the two. It is no wonder that the Lord coveted the role of the AcArya and took it up Himself. > One can assume that the state of Prapatti is not perfect, am I > correct?? Prapatti is a mental realization that the Lord is the upAyam/Means and the upEyam/End. Realization is perfect only but who have seen the God? So what is the guarantee that the Lord will redeem us and hence a prapanna might undergo a dilemma thinking about God,being the Judge of karma on one side and His unconditional grace on the other side. Read the foll cUrNikai: SVB 433: Ishvara sambanDham banDha mOkshangkaL iraNdukkum podhuvA irukkum. AcArya sambanDham mOkshaththukkE hEthuvA irukkum. Our relation/bond with the Lord can operate in two ways(two-way traffic)based on His "modus operandi" throwing us back again into samsAra based on karmas or granting us mOksha which is based on His voluntary grace. On the other hand,our link with the AcArya is a one- way traffic leading us to the final goal, salvation. AcArya is full of grace ONLY! That is why repayment to AcArya is IMPOSSIBLE because there are NO two Ishvaras and Four vibhUthis! So,seeking refuge at AcAryA's(means) feet is the ONLY remedy and the exclusive service to the AcArya is the goal(carama parva niShTa) SVB 437: AcArya sambanDham kulaiyAdhE kidandhAl j~nAna bhakthi vairAgyangkaL uNdAkkik koLLalAm; AcArya sambanDham kulaindhAl avai uNdAnAlum prayOjanam illai. If contact with AcArya is duly fostered and kept in tact,then it will automatically generate in us,spiritual knowledge,devotion to God and the Godly(devotees) and detachment from worldly pleasures. The presence of all these qualities is of no avail to a person,who, due to his perversity,lost the contact with the AcArya. SVB 443: svAbhimAnaththAlE Ishvara abhimAnaththaik kulaiththu koNda ivanukku,AcArya abhimAnam ozhiya gathi illai enRu PiLLai(Sri Vadakku Tiru VIdhi PiLLai,father of Sri PiLLai lOkAcArya) palakAlum aruLic seiyyak kEttirukkaiyAy irukkum. Sri Vadakku Tiru VIdhi PiLLai,an ardent disciple of the famous Sri NampiLLai,used to cite very often Sri NampiLLai's words that there is absolutely no salvation for the Subject,lost for long, in selfness and selfishness which destroy love for God,except the AcAryA's condescending love. Rest continued.. AzhvAr emperumAnAr jIyar thiruvadigaLE sharaNam NC Nappinnai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 20, 2003 Report Share Posted May 20, 2003 Sri: Sri Nappinnai, " when you say that "one can perform even sinful actions" you are under the delusion that "you are the body". Refer to BG 3:27. prakrthE: kriyamANAni guNai: karmANi sarvasha: | ahankAra vimUDAthmA karthA(a)ham ithi manyathE || " So, who exactly is the sinner?? Can we blame Ishvara for the sins that we perform?? " What happens to the jIvAtma in a "state of coma"? What happens to its consciousness??? Think over it in connection with freewill and write in your next post." When the atma gets into coma, he is not conscious of anything. He is practically a vegetable. Whereas a normal Jeevatma is really conscious of everything around him. What is the analogy here?? My question (I believe) is fairly simple. If a person does a sinful act, who is to be blamed, himself or Ishvara?? If you say Ishvara is ultimately the doer of everything, then why are you and I discussing in this forum, we could rather get drunk in get involved in all kinds of vices and sinful reactions, and then easily blame Sriman NArAyaNA ascribing to the fact that he is the MoolakarthA of everything?? "But I have heard(and read)that one ISKCON devotee went into coma and those days she couldn't think of the Lord KrShNA. Why?" I don't know, ask that devotee. Anyway, on what context are you citing ISKCON here, I don't know. If a person is in a coma, he does not escape. In the 2nd chapter of BG, Krishna says, "VasAmsi JeernAni Yata Vihaya navAni grhnAti narOparAni | tata sarIrAni vihAya jeernAny anyAni samyAti navAni dehi ||" the soul still has karma and the karmic reactions will follow in the next lifebirth, but thats an aside. " KrShNA's AcArya was Sandipini,who knowing that KrShNA is the Lord sought the Lord for alpa/cheap puruShArTham(he asked the Lord to revive his dead son!). There is a AcAryA-sishya lakshaNam and something is lacking here. The Lord was disappointed by the AcAryA. Just like He chose Sandipini as His AcArya,He chose Arjuna to impart the knowledge to all. " Do you have any quotations or evidence in which Krishna reasons his choosing Arjuna, like the above mentioned?? Krishna did not impart any knowledge to Sandipani Muni. Whereas, he revealed the RAja Guhya to Arjuna. Big difference. In the Bhagavad Gita, Krishna says he chose Arjuna because he is dear friend. Again, I can dispute Nirhetuka Kripai there, because if you see Arjuna had always been a close friend and devotee of Krishna. " Our relation/bond with the Lord can operate in two ways(two-way traffic)based on His "modus operandi" throwing us back again into samsAra based on karmas or granting us mOksha which is based on His voluntary grace. On the other hand,our link with the AcArya is a one- way traffic leading us to the final goal, salvation. AcArya is full of grace ONLY! That is why repayment to AcArya is IMPOSSIBLE because there are NO two Ishvaras and Four vibhUthis! So,seeking refuge at AcAryA's(means) feet is the ONLY remedy and the exclusive service to the AcArya is the goal(carama parva niShTa)" Dangerous point there Sri Nappinnai!! U mean to say that Perumaal grants us moksha based on his "voluntary" grace, whereas surrender to AcAryan leads to salvation for sure. Well, surrender to Acaryan then becomes an act, as a result of which we get perumaal's grace (moksham), SAhEtukam, right?? With respect to the state of prapatti being perfect or non-perfect, I still didn't get a clear answer, but I did see a very convincing point when somebody quoted Sri Thirumazhisai Azhwar who says that Sriman NArAyaNa can make the AzhwAr forget about him and send him back to materialistic ways, if He decides so. On that note, it appeals that Bhakti is a better practice than Prapatti, wherein you think for the lord, eat for the lord, whatever you do, you do it for the lord and his pleasure. To quote the 9th chapter, 27th shloka from the Gita: "yat karosi yad asnasi yaj juhosi dadasi yad yat tapasyasi kaunteya tad kurusva mad arpanam" "whatever you do, whatever you eat, whatever you give or whatever austerities you perform, do it as an offering to me". The question that arises that, what happens to a prapanna after he surrenders?? Arjuna didn't completely surrender. Gajendra surrendered. In Arjuna's case it was Nirhetuka Kripa (according to you), but still he failed. In Gajendra's case, he made the effort of calling the Lord's Names. Or so did Draupadi. It appears SAhetukam. BTW, do Bhakti and SAhEtukam have similarities?? Kindly pardon me for anything written wrong or hurtful. AzhwAr emperumANAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE Saranam. Dasan, Kidambi Soundararajan. The New Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.