re: free will (from srI vinjamuri srimahAvishNu)

[Guest guest]

> > > If person A is God and person B is the jeeva. A

 

 

> controls B

 

 

> totally.

 

 

> > >B is totally dependent on A. B cannot do any

 

 

> activites on his own

 

 

> > >(meaning no free will). This is the scenario.

 

 

> Suppose if B

 

 

> performs

 

 

> > >something sinful, it is understand that actually

 

 

> it is person A

 

 

> who

 

 

> > >is actually the doer. Given this, how can person

 

 

> A tell person

 

 

> > >B, "hey, you have done this and not done that, so

 

 

> you go to hell

 

 

> for

 

 

> > >that, or undergo karmic reactions for this".

 

 

UNQUOTE:

 

 

Dear Sriman Soundararajan,

 

 

According to karmA theory, God not only sends US to

 

 

hell but also to heaven. But we should not aspire for

 

 

either. So it

 

 

is He Who is actually making us do and also giving the

 

 

results.

 

 

That is His lIlA.

 

 

QUOTE:

 

 

> >

 

 

> > >Sounds totally illogical, right?? In other words,

 

 

> if A is the

 

 

> > >ultimate doer of things, how can he ask B to do

 

 

> things like "Ask

 

 

> > >questions" or "Don't do this" or even

 

 

> "Surrender"?? I mean, isn't

 

 

> it

 

 

> > >totally illogical if person A even asks B to do

 

 

> anything at all,

 

 

> > >given that A is actually the doer??

 

 

UNQUOTE:

 

 

 

 

 

at more than one place in gItA, He says I am

 

 

the actual doer.

 

 

For example, SrI rAmAnuja bhAshya for gItA says at

 

 

SlOka 9.6, "sakalEtara nirapEkshasya Bhagavatah

 

 

sankalpAt sarvEshAm sthitih pravruttih" which means

 

 

"the existence and actions of

 

 

evrybody is due to the sankalpa of the Lord Who is

 

 

independent of all enitities other than Him".

 

 

 

 

 

He can simply take all of us to Vaikunta. But He

 

 

will take only when He wishes. As long as we are

 

 

alive (at least those

 

 

Who believe in Him), He wants us to be in the mood of

 

 

paripUrNa SEsha vrutti or complete subservience.

 

 

Encouraging us to ask questions, telling dos

 

 

and donts and asking to take shelter in Him, all

 

 

are His own ways of endearing us to Him. For Him

 

 

whether we do bhakti or karma yOga does not

 

 

matter. he stands as the upAya on His own!

 

 

QUOTE:

 

 

> >

 

 

> > >

 

 

> > > * With respect to Nirhetukam which means,

 

 

> "Causeless Mercy".

 

 

> Well,

 

 

> > >the same Bhagavad Gita, which speaks about Karma

 

 

> Yoga, Jnana

 

 

> Yoga,

 

 

> > >Bhakti Yoga and finally Prapatti, somehow fails

 

 

> to talk about

 

 

> > >the "Causeless Mercy" of the lord.

 

 

UNQUOTE:

 

 

SrI rAmAnuja bhAshya speaks of it, though the

 

 

AchArya does not use that particular word.

 

 

Neither Krishna nor Alwars say "do not pray to

 

 

Him, do not choose Him" etc. When Krishna is

 

 

starightaway speaking to

 

 

arjuna, why should He say "u do all sinful

 

 

activities, I will still liberate you?". but

 

 

He even says that! ((at the end). of course, He

 

 

does not say "do sins", buT "i will deliver u from all

 

 

ur sins".

 

 

In our sampradAya, both puNya and pApa are

 

 

undesirable (iruvinai) and it is the Lord

 

 

who liberates from such karmAs.

 

 

QUOTE:

 

 

> >

 

 

> >

 

 

> > >Perumal only says, "surrender, do >this, do

 

 

> that". Not in a

 

 

> single

 

 

> > >verse has he said, "Just surrender >unto me

 

 

> mentally and remain a

 

 

> > >vegetable physically". No.

 

 

UNQUOTE:

 

 

That is how we are supposed to be. That is called

 

 

"achitvat pAratantryam" or considering oursleves to be

 

 

like a non-sentient object at His disposal.

 

 

QUOTE:

 

 

> >

 

 

> > >

 

 

> > > Can I surrender to an Acarya, have

 

 

> Samashrayanam done and

 

 

> > >mentally pray to Perumal, "I am yours. I have

 

 

> surrendered unto

 

 

> You.

 

 

> > >Whatver I do, You are the Karta", and then end

 

 

> up watching a

 

 

> nice

 

 

> > >episode of Seinfeld?? Meaning, does it reflect

 

 

> the traits of a

 

 

> > >prapanna??

 

 

UNQUOTE:

 

 

U can pray to Him with or without samASrayaNam!

 

 

Actually the "tApa" part of samASrayaNam symbolizes

 

 

the achtitvat pAratantryam mentioned by adiyen above.

 

 

This means our body and the soul in it are like

 

 

temple vessels with

 

 

chakra drawn on them and are meant only for bhagavad

 

 

bhAgavata kainkaryam.

 

 

This is in accordance with how Sri Bhattar defines the

 

 

jIva in ashtaSlOkI.

 

 

 

 

 

Also dandavath praNAmam or falling like a stick

 

 

before elders (prostration) only once, symbolizes

 

 

achitvath pAratantryam.

 

 

I dont know who is Seinfield. If yo have faith in

 

 

the AchArya's words, u will indulge in paripUrNa

 

 

SEsha vrtti or complete subservience and hence do

 

 

things only in the mood of kainkaryam.

 

 

Also AchArya samASrayaNam is not the key but

 

 

AchArya abhimAnam or the concern AchArya has for us

 

 

and the confidence hegives to us is

 

 

important. That is considered to be uttArakam

 

 

(spiritually uplifting) by our AchAryas and not

 

 

samASrayaNam.

 

 

QUOTE:

 

 

> >

 

 

> > * Based on what has appealed to my logic (which is

 

 

totally

 

 

inferior

 

 

> >and flawed), I am of the opinion that we do have a

 

 

bare minimum

 

 

of

 

 

> >free will. Based on that free will, we exercise

 

 

options, we

 

 

choose.

 

 

> >We choose to surrender or not surrender. If we

 

 

don't surrender,

 

 

then

 

 

> >again we get lost in this cycle of samsara.

 

 

UNQUOTE:

 

 

Sri Bhattar says we do not have any free will. It is

 

 

the divine

 

 

couple who choose us. That is what Sri Bhattar says in

 

 

"Ahur vEdAn

 

 

amAnam..." SlOka of SrI guNa ratna kOSa.

 

 

 

 

 

As I already wrote, if we think we have chosen Him,

 

 

we have done

 

 

something to win Him, such thoughts involve ego. That

 

 

is why we

 

 

believe that even the belief in Him is out of His

 

 

grace. So it is

 

 

a matter of belief and cannot be proved. The concept

 

 

of nirhEtuka krpA is logical if we want to

 

 

be wihout any ego (at least on a spiritual platform -

 

 

which may

 

 

slowly extend to materialistic platform and transform

 

 

us into good

 

 

citizens in the mood of service). If we think sAttvika

 

 

ahankAra etc. we can

 

 

have, nirhEtuka krupA is illogical.

 

 

As I already wrote, if somedbody knows that He is the

 

 

Supreme and

 

 

He is the deliverer, will he still say "I want to

 

 

exercise the option

 

 

of keeping away from Him?". So it is a matter of

 

 

conviction and not a

 

 

matter of choice. We believe He only gives such

 

 

knowledge.

 

 

QUOTE:

 

 

>

 

 

> >

 

 

> > If we do surrender, then Perumal grants us

 

 

Moksha. Like Sri

 

 

> >Lakshmi Narayanan pointed out, perumal grants

 

 

moksha to people

 

 

are

 

 

> >perceived to be undeserving too, like Sisupala,

 

 

etc. That is his

 

 

> >causeless mercy, or Nirhetuka Kripai. Or in other

 

 

words,

 

 

Nirhetuka

 

 

> >Kripai cannot be perceived to be the ONLY means of

 

 

Moksham.

 

 

>

 

 

UNQUOTE:

 

 

As far as AlwArs and AchAryas are concerned, that is

 

 

the only

 

 

means.

 

 

QUOTE:

 

 

>

 

 

> >

 

 

> > * The third idea that is suggested is this: We

 

 

surrender, but

 

 

still

 

 

> >perumal chooses to grant moksha or not, based on

 

 

his will. I

 

 

think

 

 

> >it is a very dangerous, demotivating point.

 

 

Historically, there

 

 

has

 

 

> >never been a case in which Perumal had failed to

 

 

offer Moksha to

 

 

> >somebody who had surrendered. He might have tested

 

 

them, like Sri

 

 

> >Thondaradippodi AzhwAr, but had never failed to

 

 

offer to them

 

 

Moksha.

 

 

>

 

 

UNQUOTE:

 

 

I agree with you on this.

 

 

>

 

 

QUOTE:

 

 

> > * The same Carama Shloka ends with the phrase, "Ma

 

 

Sucah",

 

 

> >means "do not fear". How many times has Perumal

 

 

used words

 

 

> >like "Asamsayah" which means, "do not doubt", or

 

 

even words

 

 

> >like "Satyam", which means "Promise"!! The same

 

 

perumal who has

 

 

used

 

 

> >very powerful, assuring words like the above,

 

 

cannot fail to

 

 

offer

 

 

> >Moksha to a fully surrendered person.

 

 

UNQUOTE:

 

 

He Himself choses such a person, and that person will

 

 

not be

 

 

making any effort but simply relying on Him i.e. fully

 

 

surrendered, as He

 

 

has made that jeeva devoid of ahankAra and mamakAra.

 

 

>

 

 

QUOTE:

 

 

> > * So, the crux of the matter is this: Instead of

 

 

just relying on

 

 

> >the "Nirhetuka Kripa" of perumal, it is a good idea

 

 

for us to

 

 

follow

 

 

> >His instructions. Accept an AcAryan. Surrender unto

 

 

Him. And

 

 

follow

 

 

> >the spiritual practices as laid down by him. Why??

 

 

Because

 

 

Perumal

 

 

> >says so.

 

 

UNQUOTE:

 

 

In our sampradAyam, we need to believe in His

 

 

nirhEtuka krupA or

 

 

His being the upAya and upEya. We cannot rely on

 

 

anything else. That

 

 

is what AchAryas of our sampradAya preach and we need

 

 

to have faith

 

 

in them.

 

 

 

 

 

We have to do anushtAnams or spirtual practices

 

 

(vAzhvinai and

 

 

adimai). Wihout anushtAnams, life is considered to be

 

 

meaningless

 

 

like u quoted the example of watching some Senfield.

 

 

these

 

 

anushtAnams are meant only for making our life

 

 

meaningful. Again

 

 

it is PerumAL who puts us in such SEsha vrtti, says

 

 

Bhattar in ashtaSlOkI.

 

 

The only anushtAna we need to do for mOksha is NOT

 

 

doing anything

 

 

or NOT rejecting His krupA.

 

 

QUOTE:

 

 

>

 

 

> >

 

 

> > * Well, stickers to the idea of "ONLY-NIRHETUKA

 

 

KRIPA" can raise

 

 

> >this wonderful point: They can say that it is the

 

 

same Perumal

 

 

who

 

 

> >makes a person surrender unto him. Meaning, if one

 

 

is even

 

 

remotely

 

 

> >interested in Bhagavath Vishayam, it is just

 

 

because of the mercy

 

 

of

 

 

> >Perumal alone, or in other words, Perumal chooses

 

 

his

 

 

surrenderers.

 

 

>

 

 

UNQUOTE:

 

 

That is what SrI rAmAnuja says in gItA bhAshya, for

 

 

SlOka 8.14. first he gives a gist of the

 

 

SlOka which speaks of the yOgI with his thoughts fixed

 

 

on the Lord and syas the Lord is

 

 

easily accessible to him. The SrI rAmAnuja further

 

 

explains: "suprApScha tadviyOgam asahamAnah

 

 

aham Eva tam vrNE" which means "I, the bhakta sulabha,

 

 

only choose the jIva as I am not able to bear

 

 

his separation". The AchArya says perumAL will remove

 

 

all impediments for such a chosen jIva.

 

 

He qotes the upanishat statement "yamEvaisha vrNutE

 

 

tEna labhyah".

 

 

one may ask how He is able to bear the separation of

 

 

other jIvas. for this He only knows the reason.

 

 

actually that is what SrI nammALwAr conveys thru

 

 

"thirumAlirumjOlai" padhigam.

 

 

One may please post the meaning of "thirumAl

 

 

thanbAl..." pASuram of ThiruvAimozhi nUtthandhadhi.

 

 

QUOTE:

 

 

>

 

 

> >We don't have any free-will, and anybody who even

 

 

"chooses" to

 

 

> >surrender does so because of Perumal's Nirhetuka

 

 

Kripa. But then

 

 

the

 

 

> >counter-point is that, then Bhagavad Gita is just a

 

 

stage-show

 

 

for

 

 

> >Perumal. Since, he chooses his prapannas, he is

 

 

just joking when

 

 

he

 

 

> >says things like "Surrender unto me.." etc.

 

 

>

 

 

UNQUOTE:

 

 

He is not joking. He is saying take me as your means

 

 

for

 

 

liberation (mAmEkam SaraNam vraja).

 

 

 

 

 

I learnt that entire Bhagavad gItA can be interpreted

 

 

in

 

 

accordance with divya prabandham. But we need to

 

 

approach the right AchArya

 

 

for that. However, a dispassionate self-study

 

 

referring to rAmAnuja

 

 

bhAshya (which is very much encouraged in our vaidika

 

 

system under

 

 

the name "svAdhyAyam") will greatly help but one needs

 

 

to apporach an AchArya

 

 

for clarification on certain issues.

 

 

 

 

 

AzhwAr emperumANAr Jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saranam.

 

 

 

 

 

Dasan,

 

 

 

 

 

Vishnu