Guest guest Posted January 27, 2004 Report Share Posted January 27, 2004 Dear bhAgavatAs, I stumbled onto an old sri-ranga-sri discussion regarding the s'lOka shuklAmbaradharam vishNum... A proposition was made that this was addressed to vinAyaka which was countered by lot of srI vaishNavAs. I request a pramANa for vishNu being described as a 'sashi-varNa' - 'moon-colored'. I also noticed a comment by somebody that ganEsha is a non-vedic deity and he is introduced into tamil nadu during pallava regime. If that is true, I request another clarification: taittriya AraNyaka 10.1.24 has this mantra "tatpurushAya vidmahe vakratundAya dhImahi tannO danti: pracodayAt " This mantra occurs with others addressed to family and extended family of shiva/shankara I understand that book X (famously called mahA-nArAyaNa upanishad) has multiple readings. Do we consider that this book of AraNyakam or this section is interpolated too after pallava regime? Even otherwise, ganEsha mantra occurs in maitrAyaNIya samhita 2.9.1 with a textual variant as "tatpurushAya vidmahe hastimukhAya dhImahi tannO danti: pracodayAt " So clearly ganEsha is 'very much vedic'. If we temrproarily supress maitrAyaNIya samhita evidence and consider mahAnArAyaNa upanishad reference as interpolation, we run into the problem of demoting nrsimha as non-vedic too, as I am not aware of mention of nrsimha (mantram or brAhmaNam discussion) anywhere else in vedic literature. I request the opinions of learned members. Regards, Kasturi Rangan .K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2004 Report Share Posted January 28, 2004 Dear all, I agree with Sri Kasturi Rangan. In fact there are Gayatri mantras for Siva, Skanda, Ganesha, Brahma, Katyayani etc.. apart from Vishnu. (Please refer "Gayatri mantras" section in the chapter "MahaaNarayana Upanishad" in the book "Saswara Veda Mantras" published by Ramakrishna Math.) There are Gayatri mantras for Nrusimha & Garuda also in this section. If I remember the Gayatri mantra for Nrusimha it is as follows: Vajranakhaaya Vidmahe, teekshNa daggashtraaya dhimahi tanno naarasigamha prachodayaat Regards Mohan.R On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 amshuman_k wrote : >Dear bhAgavatAs, > I stumbled onto an old sri-ranga-sri discussion regarding the s'lOka >shuklAmbaradharam vishNum... A proposition was made that this was >addressed to vinAyaka which was countered by lot of srI vaishNavAs. I >request a pramANa for vishNu being described as a 'sashi-varNa' - > 'moon-colored'. >I also noticed a comment by somebody that ganEsha is a non-vedic >deity and he is introduced into tamil nadu during pallava regime. > >If that is true, I request another clarification: >taittriya AraNyaka 10.1.24 has this mantra >"tatpurushAya vidmahe vakratundAya dhImahi >tannO danti: pracodayAt " >This mantra occurs with others addressed to family and extended >family of shiva/shankara > >I understand that book X (famously called mahA-nArAyaNa upanishad) >has multiple readings. Do we consider that this book of AraNyakam or >this section is interpolated too after pallava regime? > >Even otherwise, ganEsha mantra occurs in maitrAyaNIya samhita 2.9.1 >with a textual variant as >"tatpurushAya vidmahe hastimukhAya dhImahi >tannO danti: pracodayAt " > >So clearly ganEsha is 'very much vedic'. If we temrproarily supress >maitrAyaNIya samhita evidence and consider mahAnArAyaNa upanishad >reference as interpolation, we run into the problem of demoting >nrsimha as non-vedic too, as I am not aware of mention of nrsimha >(mantram or brAhmaNam discussion) anywhere else in vedic literature. > >I request the opinions of learned members. > >Regards, >Kasturi Rangan .K > > > > >azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam > > > > Links > > > ramanuja/ > > > ramanuja > >Your > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2004 Report Share Posted January 28, 2004 Sri: Srimathe Ramanujaya Nama: There are several pramANas for Sriman Narayana having white color. Some examples are: 1. Varaha purANa records that Sriman Narayana when taking the boar form was of the color white. 2. In Bhagavatam, it is said that Sriman Narayana takes on different forms, different colors, different names and worshipped differently in each of the four yugas. In this, it is said that in the Krta Yuga, He is of the color white. 3. In Pancharatra samhita, the Lord in the Sankarshana form is said to be the color of lotus. It also describes the Lord having the color of molten gold. 4. Since the Vedas describe Him as "krshNapingaLam", He has both the dark color and golden color. One shade of melting gold can be a shade of white. 5. In the Skanda purANa, vAmana purANa etc, in the description of Sriman Narayana, it is said that His face is like that of the moon - shashi (and also that His divine body is dark blue). Coming to the shloka in question, I have heard from Shaivites that they address it to Ganesha, because of the ending which says "sarva vigna upa shAntaye" and Ganesha is considered as Vigneshwara. However, there are two other things to consider: one is the word "vishNum" denoting all pervasiveness. This, I don't believe, is a quality associated with Ganesha by even Shaivites, except perhaps by some folks in Tamilnadu who consider Ganesha to be the para Brahmam. Considering that purANas state that Ganesha was created by Shiva, I can't follow the logic behind that idea. The second is "catur bhujam" - I am not 100% sure on this, but I don't believe that this is a typical feature of Ganesha, except again in Tamilnadu, or that Ganesha is often refered to by this phrase. On the other hand, catur bhujam is used quite often to refer to Vishnu. adiyEn ramanuja, "amshuman_k" <amshuman_k> wrote: > Dear bhAgavatAs, > I stumbled onto an old sri-ranga-sri discussion regarding the s'lOka > shuklAmbaradharam vishNum... A proposition was made that this was > addressed to vinAyaka which was countered by lot of srI vaishNavAs. I > request a pramANa for vishNu being described as a 'sashi-varNa' - > 'moon-colored'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2004 Report Share Posted January 29, 2004 Sri: Srimathe Ramanujaya Nama: Srimathe Vedantha DesikAya Namaha Adiyen wishes to add little bit further on perumal being white color: Nammazhwar in a thiruvaimozhi pasuram describes perumal as "en vellai moorthi". Pasuram is as follows: emmaa NnE! "en veLLai moorththi!" ennai aaLvaanE, emmaa vuruvum vENtu maaRRaal aavaay ezhilERE, semmaa kamalam sezhunNeer misaikkaNmalarum thirukkutandhai, ammaa malarkkaN vaLargin RaanE!ennNaan seykEnE! 5.8.2 Though I do not know the exact meaning of this pasuram, it literally translates to "my white god". Infact, adiyen vaguely remembers that Srimath Idhaneem Azhagiyasingar had stated in one upanyasams that for all azhwars perumal showed darshanam as black color. But Nammazhwar is special and hence he gave darshan with white color thirumeni. Also Swami Desikan states Hayagrivar as white colored (Vellai PariMugar) Adiyen Ramanuja Dasan LakshmiNarasimhan S. Wed, 28 Jan 2004 18:02:02 -0000 "vtca" <vtca Re: An old SRS discussion (shuklAmbaradharam vishNum...) Sri: Srimathe Ramanujaya Nama: There are several pramANas for Sriman Narayana having white color. Some examples are: 1. Varaha purANa records that Sriman Narayana when taking the boar form was of the color white. 2. In Bhagavatam, it is said that Sriman Narayana takes on different forms, different colors, different names and worshipped differently in each of the four yugas. In this, it is said that in the Krta Yuga, He is of the color white. 3. In Pancharatra samhita, the Lord in the Sankarshana form is said to be the color of lotus. It also describes the Lord having the color of molten gold. 4. Since the Vedas describe Him as "krshNapingaLam", He has both the dark color and golden color. One shade of melting gold can be a shade of white. 5. In the Skanda purANa, vAmana purANa etc, in the description of Sriman Narayana, it is said that His face is like that of the moon - shashi (and also that His divine body is dark blue). Coming to the shloka in question, I have heard from Shaivites that they address it to Ganesha, because of the ending which says "sarva vigna upa shAntaye" and Ganesha is considered as Vigneshwara. However, there are two other things to consider: one is the word "vishNum" denoting all pervasiveness. This, I don't believe, is a quality associated with Ganesha by even Shaivites, except perhaps by some folks in Tamilnadu who consider Ganesha to be the para Brahmam. Considering that purANas state that Ganesha was created by Shiva, I can't follow the logic behind that idea. The second is "catur bhujam" - I am not 100% sure on this, but I don't believe that this is a typical feature of Ganesha, except again in Tamilnadu, or that Ganesha is often refered to by this phrase. On the other hand, catur bhujam is used quite often to refer to Vishnu. adiyEn ------------------------- Srimathe Lakshminrusimha divya pAduka sevika srivan satakopa Sri Narayana Yathindra MahadesikAya Namaha ------------------------- _______________ Get a FREE online virus check for your PC here, from McAfee. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 Dear Shri vtca: Thank you for all the references. The two points which you mentioned is very relevant. If "vishNum" is an adjective, popular tradition doesn't attribute it to gaNEsha. But gANApatyam is not confined to Tamilnadu. I suspect, strict form of gANApatyam is imported from northern states. I am not sure about chaturbhujam either, but this is a very common adjective for nArAyaNa. regards, Kasturi Rangan .K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2004 Report Share Posted February 3, 2004 Asmad Gurubhyo Namaha Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha > "Ganesha' was of course a Vedic Demi God. No doubt about that. > He wrote Mahabharatha on the request /Dictation of Sri Vedvyasa. Dear Swami, Per authentic Vaishnava scholars(I had asked about this to different scholars who do kalakshepams), Ganesha did not write Mahabharatha. Vyasa himself wrote Mahabharatha as he wrote all the 18 puranas. It seems that, the story that Ganesha wrote Mahabharatha with his broken/ever growing tusk(s), is yet another interpolation (idaiccherugal). I apologize for my mistakes if any. Adiyen Ramanuja Dasan ramanuja, "Kazhiyur Narayanan \(Home\)" <sriramajayam@c...> wrote: > Sri Kasturi rangan, > > "Ganesha' was of course a Vedic Demi God. No doubt about that. > He wrote Mahabharatha on the request /Dictation of Sri Vedvyasa. > > However, worship of 'Ganesha' as a primoridla God started in Tamil nadu after Vathapi was burnt down by Pallva kings while on fight with Pulekesi. > > There was a famous Nayanmar (Later called as Siruthondar), who fought against Vathapi kingdom, found out an Idol of > Ganesha among the ruins of Vathapi. > > This sight changed his mind and he took that idol to Tamil kingdom. > > Ever since that time, Ganesha's worship became famous. > > Even before Pallava kings, the works of Nayanmars, like Thirumandiram etc has many emntion of Ganesha. > > The Suklambharathram slokam is for Vishvakesena only. > The uttara part of the slokam clearly salutes elephant faced with 2 trunks. > > Ganesha is has only single trunk. In tamil he is also called as 'Aingkaran' due to this. > > Ganesha as a primordial diety was later added on with many stories (Puranams) which does not have > approval from Vedantic scholors. > > Regards > KM Narayanan > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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