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An old SRS discussion (shuklAmbaradharam vishNum...)

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Dear bhAgavatAs,

I stumbled onto an old sri-ranga-sri discussion regarding the s'lOka

shuklAmbaradharam vishNum... A proposition was made that this was

addressed to vinAyaka which was countered by lot of srI vaishNavAs. I

request a pramANa for vishNu being described as a 'sashi-varNa' -

'moon-colored'.

I also noticed a comment by somebody that ganEsha is a non-vedic

deity and he is introduced into tamil nadu during pallava regime.

 

If that is true, I request another clarification:

taittriya AraNyaka 10.1.24 has this mantra

"tatpurushAya vidmahe vakratundAya dhImahi

tannO danti: pracodayAt "

This mantra occurs with others addressed to family and extended

family of shiva/shankara :)

 

I understand that book X (famously called mahA-nArAyaNa upanishad)

has multiple readings. Do we consider that this book of AraNyakam or

this section is interpolated too after pallava regime?

 

Even otherwise, ganEsha mantra occurs in maitrAyaNIya samhita 2.9.1

with a textual variant as

"tatpurushAya vidmahe hastimukhAya dhImahi

tannO danti: pracodayAt "

 

So clearly ganEsha is 'very much vedic'. If we temrproarily supress

maitrAyaNIya samhita evidence and consider mahAnArAyaNa upanishad

reference as interpolation, we run into the problem of demoting

nrsimha as non-vedic too, as I am not aware of mention of nrsimha

(mantram or brAhmaNam discussion) anywhere else in vedic literature.

 

I request the opinions of learned members.

 

Regards,

Kasturi Rangan .K

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Dear all,

 

I agree with Sri Kasturi Rangan.

 

In fact there are Gayatri mantras for Siva, Skanda, Ganesha, Brahma, Katyayani

etc.. apart from Vishnu. (Please refer "Gayatri mantras" section in the chapter

"MahaaNarayana Upanishad" in the book "Saswara Veda Mantras" published by

Ramakrishna Math.)

 

There are Gayatri mantras for Nrusimha & Garuda also in this section.

 

If I remember the Gayatri mantra for Nrusimha it is as follows:

 

Vajranakhaaya Vidmahe, teekshNa daggashtraaya dhimahi tanno naarasigamha

prachodayaat

 

Regards

Mohan.R

 

 

On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 amshuman_k wrote :

>Dear bhAgavatAs,

> I stumbled onto an old sri-ranga-sri discussion regarding the s'lOka

>shuklAmbaradharam vishNum... A proposition was made that this was

>addressed to vinAyaka which was countered by lot of srI vaishNavAs. I

>request a pramANa for vishNu being described as a 'sashi-varNa' -

> 'moon-colored'.

>I also noticed a comment by somebody that ganEsha is a non-vedic

>deity and he is introduced into tamil nadu during pallava regime.

>

>If that is true, I request another clarification:

>taittriya AraNyaka 10.1.24 has this mantra

>"tatpurushAya vidmahe vakratundAya dhImahi

>tannO danti: pracodayAt "

>This mantra occurs with others addressed to family and extended

>family of shiva/shankara :)

>

>I understand that book X (famously called mahA-nArAyaNa upanishad)

>has multiple readings. Do we consider that this book of AraNyakam or

>this section is interpolated too after pallava regime?

>

>Even otherwise, ganEsha mantra occurs in maitrAyaNIya samhita 2.9.1

>with a textual variant as

>"tatpurushAya vidmahe hastimukhAya dhImahi

>tannO danti: pracodayAt "

>

>So clearly ganEsha is 'very much vedic'. If we temrproarily supress

>maitrAyaNIya samhita evidence and consider mahAnArAyaNa upanishad

>reference as interpolation, we run into the problem of demoting

>nrsimha as non-vedic too, as I am not aware of mention of nrsimha

>(mantram or brAhmaNam discussion) anywhere else in vedic literature.

>

>I request the opinions of learned members.

>

>Regards,

>Kasturi Rangan .K

>

>

>

>

>azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam

>

>

>

> Links

>

>

> ramanuja/

>

>

> ramanuja

>

>Your

>

>

>

 

 

 

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Sri:

Srimathe Ramanujaya Nama:

 

There are several pramANas for Sriman Narayana having white

color.

 

Some examples are:

1. Varaha purANa records that Sriman Narayana when taking

the boar form was of the color white.

 

2. In Bhagavatam, it is said that Sriman Narayana takes on

different forms, different colors, different names and

worshipped differently in each of the four yugas. In this,

it is said that in the Krta Yuga, He is of the color white.

 

3. In Pancharatra samhita, the Lord in the Sankarshana form

is said to be the color of lotus. It also describes the Lord

having the color of molten gold.

 

4. Since the Vedas describe Him as "krshNapingaLam", He has

both the dark color and golden color. One shade of melting

gold can be a shade of white.

 

5. In the Skanda purANa, vAmana purANa etc, in the

description of Sriman Narayana, it is said that His face

is like that of the moon - shashi (and also that His divine

body is dark blue).

 

Coming to the shloka in question, I have heard from Shaivites

that they address it to Ganesha, because of the ending which

says "sarva vigna upa shAntaye" and Ganesha is considered as

Vigneshwara.

 

However, there are two other things to consider: one is the

word "vishNum" denoting all pervasiveness. This, I don't

believe, is a quality associated with Ganesha by even

Shaivites, except perhaps by some folks in Tamilnadu who

consider Ganesha to be the para Brahmam. Considering that

purANas state that Ganesha was created by Shiva, I can't

follow the logic behind that idea.

 

The second is "catur bhujam" - I am not 100% sure on this,

but I don't believe that this is a typical feature of Ganesha,

except again in Tamilnadu, or that Ganesha is often refered

to by this phrase. On the other hand, catur bhujam is used

quite often to refer to Vishnu.

 

adiyEn

 

 

ramanuja, "amshuman_k" <amshuman_k>

wrote:

> Dear bhAgavatAs,

> I stumbled onto an old sri-ranga-sri discussion regarding the

s'lOka

> shuklAmbaradharam vishNum... A proposition was made that this was

> addressed to vinAyaka which was countered by lot of srI

vaishNavAs. I

> request a pramANa for vishNu being described as a 'sashi-varNa' -

> 'moon-colored'.

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Sri:

Srimathe Ramanujaya Nama:

Srimathe Vedantha DesikAya Namaha

 

 

Adiyen wishes to add little bit further on perumal being white color:

 

Nammazhwar in a thiruvaimozhi pasuram describes perumal as "en vellai

moorthi". Pasuram is as follows:

 

emmaa NnE! "en veLLai moorththi!" ennai aaLvaanE,

emmaa vuruvum vENtu maaRRaal aavaay ezhilERE,

semmaa kamalam sezhunNeer misaikkaNmalarum thirukkutandhai,

ammaa malarkkaN vaLargin RaanE!ennNaan seykEnE! 5.8.2

 

 

Though I do not know the exact meaning of this pasuram, it literally

translates to "my white god". Infact, adiyen vaguely remembers that Srimath

Idhaneem Azhagiyasingar had stated in one upanyasams that for all azhwars

perumal showed darshanam as black color. But Nammazhwar is special and hence

he gave darshan with white color thirumeni.

 

Also Swami Desikan states Hayagrivar as white colored (Vellai PariMugar)

 

Adiyen Ramanuja Dasan

LakshmiNarasimhan S.

 

Wed, 28 Jan 2004 18:02:02 -0000

"vtca" <vtca

Re: An old SRS discussion (shuklAmbaradharam vishNum...)

 

Sri:

Srimathe Ramanujaya Nama:

 

There are several pramANas for Sriman Narayana having white

color.

 

Some examples are:

1. Varaha purANa records that Sriman Narayana when taking

the boar form was of the color white.

 

2. In Bhagavatam, it is said that Sriman Narayana takes on

different forms, different colors, different names and

worshipped differently in each of the four yugas. In this,

it is said that in the Krta Yuga, He is of the color white.

 

3. In Pancharatra samhita, the Lord in the Sankarshana form

is said to be the color of lotus. It also describes the Lord

having the color of molten gold.

 

4. Since the Vedas describe Him as "krshNapingaLam", He has

both the dark color and golden color. One shade of melting

gold can be a shade of white.

 

5. In the Skanda purANa, vAmana purANa etc, in the

description of Sriman Narayana, it is said that His face

is like that of the moon - shashi (and also that His divine

body is dark blue).

 

Coming to the shloka in question, I have heard from Shaivites

that they address it to Ganesha, because of the ending which

says "sarva vigna upa shAntaye" and Ganesha is considered as

Vigneshwara.

 

However, there are two other things to consider: one is the

word "vishNum" denoting all pervasiveness. This, I don't

believe, is a quality associated with Ganesha by even

Shaivites, except perhaps by some folks in Tamilnadu who

consider Ganesha to be the para Brahmam. Considering that

purANas state that Ganesha was created by Shiva, I can't

follow the logic behind that idea.

 

The second is "catur bhujam" - I am not 100% sure on this,

but I don't believe that this is a typical feature of Ganesha,

except again in Tamilnadu, or that Ganesha is often refered

to by this phrase. On the other hand, catur bhujam is used

quite often to refer to Vishnu.

 

adiyEn

 

 

 

 

 

-------------------------

Srimathe Lakshminrusimha divya pAduka sevika

srivan satakopa Sri Narayana Yathindra MahadesikAya Namaha

-------------------------

 

_______________

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Dear Shri vtca:

Thank you for all the references.

The two points which you mentioned is very relevant. If "vishNum" is

an adjective, popular tradition doesn't attribute it to gaNEsha.

But gANApatyam is not confined to Tamilnadu. I suspect, strict form

of gANApatyam is imported from northern states.

 

I am not sure about chaturbhujam either, but this is a very common

adjective for nArAyaNa.

 

regards,

Kasturi Rangan .K

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Asmad Gurubhyo Namaha

Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha

> "Ganesha' was of course a Vedic Demi God. No doubt about that.

> He wrote Mahabharatha on the request /Dictation of Sri Vedvyasa.

 

Dear Swami,

 

Per authentic Vaishnava scholars(I had asked about this to different

scholars who do kalakshepams), Ganesha did not write Mahabharatha.

Vyasa himself wrote Mahabharatha as he wrote all the 18 puranas. It

seems that, the story that Ganesha wrote Mahabharatha with his

broken/ever growing tusk(s), is yet another interpolation

(idaiccherugal).

 

I apologize for my mistakes if any.

 

Adiyen

Ramanuja Dasan

ramanuja, "Kazhiyur Narayanan \(Home\)"

<sriramajayam@c...> wrote:

> Sri Kasturi rangan,

>

> "Ganesha' was of course a Vedic Demi God. No doubt about that.

> He wrote Mahabharatha on the request /Dictation of Sri Vedvyasa.

>

> However, worship of 'Ganesha' as a primoridla God started in Tamil

nadu after Vathapi was burnt down by Pallva kings while on fight with

Pulekesi.

>

> There was a famous Nayanmar (Later called as Siruthondar), who

fought against Vathapi kingdom, found out an Idol of

> Ganesha among the ruins of Vathapi.

>

> This sight changed his mind and he took that idol to Tamil kingdom.

>

> Ever since that time, Ganesha's worship became famous.

>

> Even before Pallava kings, the works of Nayanmars, like

Thirumandiram etc has many emntion of Ganesha.

>

> The Suklambharathram slokam is for Vishvakesena only.

> The uttara part of the slokam clearly salutes elephant faced with

2 trunks.

>

> Ganesha is has only single trunk. In tamil he is also called

as 'Aingkaran' due to this.

>

> Ganesha as a primordial diety was later added on with many stories

(Puranams) which does not have

> approval from Vedantic scholors.

>

> Regards

> KM Narayanan

>

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