Guest guest Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 >From my understanding the criterion required for Prapatti and eventually Moksha are: 1. Devotion only to Sriman Narayana 2. Refrain from Bhaagvadh Abacharaam Correct me if I am wrong, but because of the lord's "Daya" Gunaa "anyone" can get Prapatti done. So my question then: what is the difference between an individual who has tried to follow the Path of Bhakti (reciting slokas, performing prayers, trying to follow the teachings of our archaryas) to attain Moksha; AND one who hasn't done any of the above. How can such a person get Prapatti done? Someone once told me "For an individual who has tried to follow the Path of Bhakthi, getting prapatti done is easy, doesn't take any effort on his part to trust the system; He already does.. while for the individual who was oblivious of everything all these years, to develop a conviction is incredible, and that is the beauty of our system and the Dayaa Gunaa of the lord. He went on to say, it does take something extra special for that individual to seek refuge in the lord. One further question: I have also heard that just by getting prapatti done, you are not guranteed Moksha. So tying in with my previous question, is this the difference between the individuals (one who has made an effort to follow, and the other who hasn't). But while performing prapatti the lord does offer his support when you beg for forgiveness; so how can he withdraw it later on(in case u get prapatti done, and don't attain Moksha). I am confused and would appreciate if the group could help me understand this concept, it's significance and eligibility correctly. Adiyen, Madhusudhan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 13, 2004 Report Share Posted March 13, 2004 Dear Madhusudhanan, Neither prapatti nor the formal practice of Bhakthi Yo:ga can assure anyone of mo:ksha. Mo:ksha is solely the gift of the Lord Himself, out of His Boundless Compassion, and only at a time when He feels that an invidual is ready for it. The challenge with Bhakthi Yo:ga is that it can only belong to a few, namely qualified Brahmin males who are well-suited to live a life of strict discipline, meditation, and practice; those with the tenacity to be able to forsake material comforts and wordly obligations and focus only on the goal of achieving salvation, despite the knowledge that such salvation can only be given at the time the Lord feels that one is ready. Needless to say, this path is filled with many obstacles and hardships, and is virtually impossible in this day and age. Consequently, prapatti is afforded to everyone, irrespective of race, caste, or gender, as the only method for one seeking Connection to the Divine. It is important to note that the term "method" is being used only for description's sake, because prapatti is not a ritual or some sort of step-by-step process that has clear-cut guidelines and specific requirements. Nor can we truly say that it even has a specific goal. It is instead a realization, an awakening, if you will, in which one realizes that all that we are, all that we experience, all that we know and love, is but a gift of the Divine, and has Him Alone to which it must owe its very existence. This awareness makes us realize that ours is just to revel at just how much Love He must feel for each and every one of us to provide us with all of this without condition. What else can one do at this point but love in return, becoming simple receptacles to His Grace and instruments to His Good? Such a realization, such a profound awakening, cannot happen without God's Grace, either, which comes to us in the form of the Acha:rya, under whose guidance we place ourselves through the sacrament of panchasamska:ram. It is he who prays to the Lord to give us the right mood of humility and servitude such that we can know Peace and Joy in His Loving Hands. Since it is really the Acha:rya who is "doing all the work" in praying and interceding on our behalf, it could be said that we should be less concerned for prapatti as we should be for serving our Acha:rya in gratitude for all that he is doing for us. And, indeed, as one of our great works, Sri: Vachana Bhu:shanam tells us, if there really is a guaranteed method for achieving mo:ksha, it is serving the Acha:rya with faith and love. I hope this helps. Ramanuja dasan Mohan k_madhusudhan22 wrote: >>From my understanding the criterion required for Prapatti and >eventually Moksha are: > >1. Devotion only to Sriman Narayana >2. Refrain from Bhaagvadh Abacharaam > >Correct me if I am wrong, but because of the lord's "Daya" >Gunaa "anyone" can get Prapatti done. > > >So my question then: > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2004 Report Share Posted March 15, 2004 Sri: Dear Mohan Great explanation about prapatti and the means of attaining Moksham , Botha upAyama and upEyam is He only , none of our act can attain the Moksham, including prapatti, and as you said even the act of doing prappty is also not ours its His, "athuvum avanathu innarulE". Also I would like to interpret your message "it could be said that we should be less concerned for prapatti as we should be for serving our Acha:rya in gratitude for all that he is doing for us" While our Acharya ManavAla mAmunigal has dwelt in depth about the Acharyan roles in Upadesa rathina mAlai,but doing service back to him is it out of gratitude ? I would like to differ, you can never match by any Service to the Acharyan to the Mokham he is getting it for the Chethanan, as the later is so invaluable. So doing service to Achrayn is the Jeevatham's swaroopam, Here I mean , while doing service to him you should have such mind set that you are paying back to him, as you also said earlier you should serve the Acharyan with love and affection only, any other mind set may cause breach of Chethanan's Swaroopam, the same is applicable to Sriman Narayanan also. Hoe I am clear Adiyen Gunaseelan Madhuri and Mohan [m_raghavan] Sunday, March 14, 2004 8:12 AM ramanuja Re: [ramanuja] Question - Prapatti Dear Madhusudhanan, Neither prapatti nor the formal practice of Bhakthi Yo:ga can assure anyone of mo:ksha. Mo:ksha is solely the gift of the Lord Himself, out of His Boundless Compassion, and only at a time when He feels that an invidual is ready for it. The challenge with Bhakthi Yo:ga is that it can only belong to a few, namely qualified Brahmin males who are well-suited to live a life of strict discipline, meditation, and practice; those with the tenacity to be able to forsake material comforts and wordly obligations and focus only on the goal of achieving salvation, despite the knowledge that such salvation can only be given at the time the Lord feels that one is ready. Needless to say, this path is filled with many obstacles and hardships, and is virtually impossible in this day and age. Consequently, prapatti is afforded to everyone, irrespective of race, caste, or gender, as the only method for one seeking Connection to the Divine. It is important to note that the term "method" is being used only for description's sake, because prapatti is not a ritual or some sort of step-by-step process that has clear-cut guidelines and specific requirements. Nor can we truly say that it even has a specific goal. It is instead a realization, an awakening, if you will, in which one realizes that all that we are, all that we experience, all that we know and love, is but a gift of the Divine, and has Him Alone to which it must owe its very existence. This awareness makes us realize that ours is just to revel at just how much Love He must feel for each and every one of us to provide us with all of this without condition. What else can one do at this point but love in return, becoming simple receptacles to His Grace and instruments to His Good? Such a realization, such a profound awakening, cannot happen without God's Grace, either, which comes to us in the form of the Acha:rya, under whose guidance we place ourselves through the sacrament of panchasamska:ram. It is he who prays to the Lord to give us the right mood of humility and servitude such that we can know Peace and Joy in His Loving Hands. Since it is really the Acha:rya who is "doing all the work" in praying and interceding on our behalf, it could be said that we should be less concerned for prapatti as we should be for serving our Acha:rya in gratitude for all that he is doing for us. And, indeed, as one of our great works, Sri: Vachana Bhu:shanam tells us, if there really is a guaranteed method for achieving mo:ksha, it is serving the Acha:rya with faith and love. I hope this helps. Ramanuja dasan Mohan k_madhusudhan22 wrote: >>From my understanding the criterion required for Prapatti and >eventually Moksha are: > >1. Devotion only to Sriman Narayana >2. Refrain from Bhaagvadh Abacharaam > >Correct me if I am wrong, but because of the lord's "Daya" >Gunaa "anyone" can get Prapatti done. > > >So my question then: > > > azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam *************************************************************************** This message is proprietary to Future Software Limited (FSL) and is intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. It may contain privileged or confidential information and should not be circulated or used for any purpose other than for what it is intended. If you have received this message in error, please notify the originator immediately. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that you are strictly prohibited from using, copying, altering, or disclosing the contents of this message. FSL accepts no responsibility for loss or damage arising from the use of the information transmitted by this email including damage from virus. *************************************************************************** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2004 Report Share Posted March 15, 2004 Dear Sriman Gunaseelan, Thank you for the nice posting. Anything done for mOksha goes against our swarUpa. Even mOksha is secondary compared to adimai. We believe there is a paramapada as Lord Himself says so in gItA and vEdas. Conceptually this is the place where we can do uninterrupted service without any ahankAra and mamakAra. In VaikunTa gadya, AchArya rAmAnuja says we cannot visualize the paramapadam and stresses and wishes only kanikaryam there. Out of AchArya abhimAnam or the abhimAnam of the AchArya for us, we realize He is our upAya and upEya and we are subservient to Him. then mOskham is naturally assured. Serving the AchArya is only something natural to our swarUpam, as you have mentioned. dAsAnudAsan Vishnu ramanuja, "Gunaseelan v" <gunav@f...> wrote: > Sri: > Dear Mohan > Great explanation about prapatti and the means of attaining Moksham , Botha > upAyama and upEyam is He only , none of our act can attain the Moksham, > including prapatti, and as you said even the act of doing prappty is also > not ours its His, "athuvum avanathu innarulE". > Also I would like to interpret your message > "it could be said that we > should be less concerned for prapatti as we should be for serving our > Acha:rya in gratitude for all that he is doing for us" > > While our Acharya ManavAla mAmunigal has dwelt in depth about the Acharyan > roles in Upadesa rathina mAlai,but doing service back to him is it out of > gratitude ? I would like to differ, you can never match by any Service to > the Acharyan to the Mokham he is getting it for the Chethanan, as the later > is so invaluable. So doing service to Achrayn is the Jeevatham's swaroopam, > Here I mean , while doing service to him you should have such mind set that > you are paying back to him, as you also said earlier you should serve the > Acharyan with love and affection only, any other mind set may cause breach > of Chethanan's Swaroopam, the same is applicable to Sriman Narayanan also. > > Hoe I am clear > > Adiyen > Gunaseelan > > > Madhuri and Mohan [m_raghavan@e...] > Sunday, March 14, 2004 8:12 AM > ramanuja > Re: [ramanuja] Question - Prapatti > > > Dear Madhusudhanan, > > Neither prapatti nor the formal practice of Bhakthi Yo:ga can assure > anyone of mo:ksha. Mo:ksha is solely the gift of the Lord Himself, out > of His Boundless Compassion, and only at a time when He feels that an > invidual is ready for it. > > The challenge with Bhakthi Yo:ga is that it can only belong to a few, > namely qualified Brahmin males who are well-suited to live a life of > strict discipline, meditation, and practice; those with the tenacity to > be able to forsake material comforts and wordly obligations and focus > only on the goal of achieving salvation, despite the knowledge that such > salvation can only be given at the time the Lord feels that one is > ready. Needless to say, this path is filled with many obstacles and > hardships, and is virtually impossible in this day and age. > Consequently, prapatti is afforded to everyone, irrespective of race, > caste, or gender, as the only method for one seeking Connection to the > Divine. > > It is important to note that the term "method" is being used only for > description's sake, because prapatti is not a ritual or some sort of > step-by-step process that has clear-cut guidelines and specific > requirements. Nor can we truly say that it even has a specific goal. > It is instead a realization, an awakening, if you will, in which one > realizes that all that we are, all that we experience, all that we know > and love, is but a gift of the Divine, and has Him Alone to which it > must owe its very existence. This awareness makes us realize that ours > is just to revel at just how much Love He must feel for each and every > one of us to provide us with all of this without condition. What else > can one do at this point but love in return, becoming simple receptacles > to His Grace and instruments to His Good? > > Such a realization, such a profound awakening, cannot happen without > God's Grace, either, which comes to us in the form of the Acha:rya, > under whose guidance we place ourselves through the sacrament of > panchasamska:ram. It is he who prays to the Lord to give us the right > mood of humility and servitude such that we can know Peace and Joy in > His Loving Hands. Since it is really the Acha:rya who is "doing all the > work" in praying and interceding on our behalf, it could be said that we > should be less concerned for prapatti as we should be for serving our > Acha:rya in gratitude for all that he is doing for us. And, indeed, as > one of our great works, Sri: Vachana Bhu:shanam tells us, if there > really is a guaranteed method for achieving mo:ksha, it is serving the > Acha:rya with faith and love. > > I hope this helps. > > Ramanuja dasan > Mohan > > > > k_madhusudhan22 wrote: > > >>From my understanding the criterion required for Prapatti and > >eventually Moksha are: > > > >1. Devotion only to Sriman Narayana > >2. Refrain from Bhaagvadh Abacharaam > > > >Correct me if I am wrong, but because of the lord's "Daya" > >Gunaa "anyone" can get Prapatti done. > > > > > >So my question then: > > > > > > > > > > > > azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam > > Links > > > > > > > > ********************************************************************** ***** > This message is proprietary to Future Software Limited (FSL) > and is intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it > is addressed. It may contain privileged or confidential information > and should not be circulated or used for any purpose other than for > what it is intended. > > If you have received this message in error, please notify the > originator immediately. If you are not the intended recipient, > you are notified that you are strictly prohibited from using, > copying, altering, or disclosing the contents of this message. > FSL accepts no responsibility for loss or damage arising from > the use of the information transmitted by this email including > damage from virus. > ********************************************************************** ***** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2004 Report Share Posted March 15, 2004 ramanuja, Madhuri and Mohan <m_raghavan@e...> wrote: > Dear Madhusudhanan, > > Neither prapatti nor the formal practice of Bhakthi Yo:ga can assure > anyone of mo:ksha. Mo:ksha is solely the gift of the Lord Himself, out > of His Boundless Compassion, and only at a time when He feels that an > invidual is ready for it. Dear Srimn Mohan, While we need not be bothered about both prapatti and bhakti as upAyas, I have one doubt out of academic interest. If we look into SrImad bhAgavatam and history, many people who practised bhakti yOga (though not as upAya - according to our school of thought) are not brahimns. Even today, vaishNavas of other schools of thought, for whom bhakti is an upAya, are not necessarily brahimns. Then how do we say only brahmin males are fit for it? dasan Vishnu > > The challenge with Bhakthi Yo:ga is that it can only belong to a few, > namely qualified Brahmin males who are well-suited to live a life > of > strict discipline, meditation, and practice; those with the tenacity to > be able to forsake material comforts and wordly obligations and focus > only on the goal of achieving salvation, despite the knowledge that such > salvation can only be given at the time the Lord feels that one is > ready. Needless to say, this path is filled with many obstacles and > hardships, and is virtually impossible in this day and age. > Consequently, prapatti is afforded to everyone, irrespective of race, > caste, or gender, as the only method for one seeking Connection to the > Divine. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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