Guest guest Posted March 12, 2004 Report Share Posted March 12, 2004 Dear Sri vaishNava perunthagaiyeer When a person can be called a decent man? You, all, will react to this question saying * when he exhibits good and pleasing manners, etiquette etc, when he is being approached by an unknown person like you and me, * when he talks in simple language in courteous manner to us when some questions are put to him by us when we approach him, * when he is neatly dressed, * when he appears to be well educated, * when he is gentle in his actions But can a person be called a decent man for he is looking at one girl? That too when she describes * I am being looked at by him curiously, * he also looks at my thighs, * he also looks at my breasts, the young and tender ones which I carry". Perhaps, if it is present days or modern times, such a person will be immediately booked for damaging the modesty of a young women, or, for "eve teasing" under Cr PC sections. Immediately on the other side a big commotion would set in by women's associations and organisations. But the same girl, who first said he looks at me, as stated above, certifies him as he is very decent - very civilized, says "he is naagarikar". Also adds he is beautiful and very young, for he also entered my house and then only does all these. Perhaps she also wants that she should be looked at like that. The only thing she is afraid of is "what my mother will think when she sees this person looking at me and my body parts?" Dear bhakthaas, you all now wonder what this man wants to write that too in serious lists like et al, a cinema scene? May be - if filmed it will be quite entertaining in its real sense. Before accusing me read on. Now a doubt comes whether what she says is false [as a decent man - naagarigar] or the maintenance that she is afraid of her mother is false, for she goes on to describe how beautiful he is. If she is afraid of mother why should she go on and on to describe him. For this is all stated by thirumangai aazhvaar in his paasurams. The person looking at the girl is none other than my krishNa, the girl looked at is none else than the aazhvaar. Now read more - "thOzhee, ennaiyum nOkki en algulum nOkki Enthu iLam kongaiyum nOkkuginRaar annai en nOkkum enR anjuginREn" "nambar nam illam pugundhu ninRaar, naagarigar, peridhum iLaiyar". The reference is 9-2 -1 and 4 of the thirunaagai aazhvaar paasurams in his periya thirumozhi. Dear bhakthaas, see here, is the 'certificate' for that decent man. Also he is nambar - nam anbar - our dear man - or a royal 'we' - he is my 'man'. Now I understand why he is described such - for I also love him - so he becomes decent in spite of looking at differently in different places of my body - he is very young one also - so may be the paarvai - the looking is nishkalangam - with no blemishes. Ok, let him see me in whatever way he wants or wherever he wants. No inhibitions on my part in exposing myself to himfor he is nambar. For that also gives me a chance to see him more and describe him. I will not stop describing him. So goes on - as "achchO oruvar azhagiyavaa" - oh, a beautiful person. Dear bhakthaas, already we saw his beauty is the medicine for all types of ills for us - so let us enjoy more of his beauty. pon ivar mEni - gold has become his body min maragadhaththin pongu iLam jOthi agalaththu aaram - the haaram - the ornament hanging in the chest has a green gem - maragatham - dazzles in light green shine min ivar vaayil nal vEdhamOdhum - that min - glittering can also be added here - glittering mouth utters the different vEdhaas - vEdham Odhum or vEdham mOdhum - both are apt - these vEdhaas desire to go into his mouth and come out as uttered by him - so they rush to go in and come out dashing against each other - so vEdham mOdhum vaai. senchudar aazhiyum sangum Endhi - the hands carry the conch and the radiant wheel kaiyana aazhiyum sangum Endhi - meaning same as above paadaga melladiyaar vaNanga - paadagam named jewel is in the soft lotus petal feet which are being worshipped by his devotees. Also melladiyaar - menmaiyaana bhakthaas - once transformed into his bhakthaas they become soft in nature - so also melladiyaar - they worship those feet which adorns the paadagam - an ornament like that kazhal. [aaNdaaL also refers this paadagam - "soodagamE thOL vaLaiyE thOdE sevip poovE paadagamE enRu anaiya palkalanum" in her "koodaarai" paasuram] panmaNi muththodu ilangu jOthi aadagam pooNdu oru naangu thOLum - the four shoulders having aadagam named jewel - [thOL vaLai for aaNdaaL] in all 4 shoulder parts, several gems and pearls glitter in these jewels. now comes the real description - iv vaiyagam ellaam thaayina naayagar aavar - he is the mother for all this world and galaxies, also the head or father of all clan - [see the gender goes put - whether male or female - for he is the mother, when said as father he then is male - mother means female - what exactly he is? Both combined or neither - [now comes the description by way of a rescue - nammaazhvaar paasuram - aaNum allan peNNum allan, aliyum allan] vambavizhum thuzhaai maalai thOL mEl - the shoulders also carries the vaijayanthee garlands - the thuLasee garlands. sem pavaLam ivar vaayin vaNNam - the red coral is the colour of his mouth. ivaradhu uruvam sollil am pavaLaththiraLEyum oppar - just to describe his body - then can call as a beautiful coral reef - [please note - first it is gold hue - yellow, now coral red] see next - ivar vaNNam eNNil maa kadal pOnRu uLar - just to think of his colour - he is like the big ocean - blue ocean - [colour changed from gold yellow to red to blue] once more another colour - anjana maamalaiyEyum oppar - he is also like the black hill of collerium -kaajal black- the black substance applied to eyes to enhance beauty of the eyes. aNikezhu thaamaraiyanna kaNNum angaiyum pankayam - the eyes and the palms are lotus How he came - anjiraip puLLUm onRu Eri vandhaar - he came on a bird as his transport means. Who is this - maal irum Olai maNaaLar- the sundharan who resids in thirumaalirum sOlai, Or is it neermalaiyaar - that person living in thiruneermalai - near chennai- Finally see the words- maNdi Or aalilaip paLLi koLLum maayar - sleeping in a single leaf of the banyan tree covering the full leaf, such a magician - he ate the whole world but lies in a small banyan leaf - is it not magic? - annamum kEzhalum meenumaaya aadhiyai naagai azhagiyaarai - that old stuff which became the swan, the boar, and the fish - that beautiful lady who is in naagai - the gender now in confusion - is it or appears so - yes - once immersed into his beauty - all senses goes. So rules do not apply there - so first a male - next azhagiyaar- a female beauty- that is why even if he sees the breasts or thighs - it is welcome. You can decide whether it is ok if he looks at you like described here - is it decency? Or want to feel shy - or all gone when he looks at. Oh, what if somebody mocks at - for his kataaksham is more worth than all these fragile words of common folks. So can I get that decent man's look on me - kidaikkumaa andha decent nOkku on my chest, achO oru azhagiyavaa - krishNa krishNa the beauty. Dhasan Vasudevan m.g. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 13, 2004 Report Share Posted March 13, 2004 Dear shri vAsudEvan swAmi, AzhwAr descriptions of amourous glances on a maiden can never be more precise. This so because, she has been subject to such looks. The words "She doesnt mind such glances but is worried that her mother will see it" has provoked me into talking a pAsuram from thiru-virutham "kayalO! numa kaNgaL enRu kaLiRu vinavi niRREr, ayalOr aRiyilum, Edhenna vArthai..." thiru virutham 15 The damsel tells it to the person who had actually come in search of elephant but expresse the opinion that her eyes are like fish. She immediately responds that " What are you talking. What will happen if others hear it?" one interpretatio is that she does not mind it but is only worried about the society. That is thiru virutham . As far as thiru mozhi is concerned I always regard the atta puyakaram thiru mozhi and this thiru nAgai thiru mozhi as similar. Somehow, both rings the same tone. A sample. "vanji marungul nerunga nOkki, vAi thiRandhu onRu paNithadhu vuNdu, nanjam vudaithu ivar nOkkum nOkkam..." periya thiru mozhi 2-8-9 The looks are close to the middle portion of the girl-idai-- it is venomous, is the excalamation by AzhwAr. That is again a compliment given by parakAla nAyaki towards the Lord for His scrutiny of AzhwAr's physical profile. How is that? By the way "ivaL vAyil nal vEdham" is a suggestion that one should indulge in good vEdic portions-primarily the talk of the Lord and His auspicious qualities-bhagawadh vishayam. sAma vEdham, purusha sUktham and even thiru-voi-mozhi can be considered so. Is it not? rAmAnuja dhAsan vanamamalai padmanabhan - M.G.Vasudevan Cc: oppiliappan ; ramanuja Friday, March 12, 2004 2:48 PM [ramanuja] hey decent man Dear Sri vaishNava perunthagaiyeer When a person can be called a decent man? You, all, will react to this question saying * when he exhibits good and pleasing manners, etiquette etc, when he is being approached by an unknown person like you and me, * when he talks in simple language in courteous manner to us when some questions are put to him by us when we approach him, * when he is neatly dressed, * when he appears to be well educated, * when he is gentle in his actions But can a person be called a decent man for he is looking at one girl? That too when she describes * I am being looked at by him curiously, * he also looks at my thighs, * he also looks at my breasts, the young and tender ones which I carry". Perhaps, if it is present days or modern times, such a person will be immediately booked for damaging the modesty of a young women, or, for "eve teasing" under Cr PC sections. Immediately on the other side a big commotion would set in by women's associations and organisations. But the same girl, who first said he looks at me, as stated above, certifies him as he is very decent - very civilized, says "he is naagarikar". Also adds he is beautiful and very young, for he also entered my house and then only does all these. Perhaps she also wants that she should be looked at like that. The only thing she is afraid of is "what my mother will think when she sees this person looking at me and my body parts?" Dear bhakthaas, you all now wonder what this man wants to write that too in serious lists like et al, a cinema scene? May be - if filmed it will be quite entertaining in its real sense. Before accusing me read on. Now a doubt comes whether what she says is false [as a decent man - naagarigar] or the maintenance that she is afraid of her mother is false, for she goes on to describe how beautiful he is. If she is afraid of mother why should she go on and on to describe him. For this is all stated by thirumangai aazhvaar in his paasurams. The person looking at the girl is none other than my krishNa, the girl looked at is none else than the aazhvaar. Now read more - "thOzhee, ennaiyum nOkki en algulum nOkki Enthu iLam kongaiyum nOkkuginRaar annai en nOkkum enR anjuginREn" "nambar nam illam pugundhu ninRaar, naagarigar, peridhum iLaiyar". The reference is 9-2 -1 and 4 of the thirunaagai aazhvaar paasurams in his periya thirumozhi. Dear bhakthaas, see here, is the 'certificate' for that decent man. Also he is nambar - nam anbar - our dear man - or a royal 'we' - he is my 'man'. Now I understand why he is described such - for I also love him - so he becomes decent in spite of looking at differently in different places of my body - he is very young one also - so may be the paarvai - the looking is nishkalangam - with no blemishes. Ok, let him see me in whatever way he wants or wherever he wants. No inhibitions on my part in exposing myself to himfor he is nambar. For that also gives me a chance to see him more and describe him. I will not stop describing him. So goes on - as "achchO oruvar azhagiyavaa" - oh, a beautiful person. Dear bhakthaas, already we saw his beauty is the medicine for all types of ills for us - so let us enjoy more of his beauty. pon ivar mEni - gold has become his body min maragadhaththin pongu iLam jOthi agalaththu aaram - the haaram - the ornament hanging in the chest has a green gem - maragatham - dazzles in light green shine min ivar vaayil nal vEdhamOdhum - that min - glittering can also be added here - glittering mouth utters the different vEdhaas - vEdham Odhum or vEdham mOdhum - both are apt - these vEdhaas desire to go into his mouth and come out as uttered by him - so they rush to go in and come out dashing against each other - so vEdham mOdhum vaai. senchudar aazhiyum sangum Endhi - the hands carry the conch and the radiant wheel kaiyana aazhiyum sangum Endhi - meaning same as above paadaga melladiyaar vaNanga - paadagam named jewel is in the soft lotus petal feet which are being worshipped by his devotees. Also melladiyaar - menmaiyaana bhakthaas - once transformed into his bhakthaas they become soft in nature - so also melladiyaar - they worship those feet which adorns the paadagam - an ornament like that kazhal. [aaNdaaL also refers this paadagam - "soodagamE thOL vaLaiyE thOdE sevip poovE paadagamE enRu anaiya palkalanum" in her "koodaarai" paasuram] panmaNi muththodu ilangu jOthi aadagam pooNdu oru naangu thOLum - the four shoulders having aadagam named jewel - [thOL vaLai for aaNdaaL] in all 4 shoulder parts, several gems and pearls glitter in these jewels. now comes the real description - iv vaiyagam ellaam thaayina naayagar aavar - he is the mother for all this world and galaxies, also the head or father of all clan - [see the gender goes put - whether male or female - for he is the mother, when said as father he then is male - mother means female - what exactly he is? Both combined or neither - [now comes the description by way of a rescue - nammaazhvaar paasuram - aaNum allan peNNum allan, aliyum allan] vambavizhum thuzhaai maalai thOL mEl - the shoulders also carries the vaijayanthee garlands - the thuLasee garlands. sem pavaLam ivar vaayin vaNNam - the red coral is the colour of his mouth. ivaradhu uruvam sollil am pavaLaththiraLEyum oppar - just to describe his body - then can call as a beautiful coral reef - [please note - first it is gold hue - yellow, now coral red] see next - ivar vaNNam eNNil maa kadal pOnRu uLar - just to think of his colour - he is like the big ocean - blue ocean - [colour changed from gold yellow to red to blue] once more another colour - anjana maamalaiyEyum oppar - he is also like the black hill of collerium -kaajal black- the black substance applied to eyes to enhance beauty of the eyes. aNikezhu thaamaraiyanna kaNNum angaiyum pankayam - the eyes and the palms are lotus How he came - anjiraip puLLUm onRu Eri vandhaar - he came on a bird as his transport means. Who is this - maal irum Olai maNaaLar- the sundharan who resids in thirumaalirum sOlai, Or is it neermalaiyaar - that person living in thiruneermalai - near chennai- Finally see the words- maNdi Or aalilaip paLLi koLLum maayar - sleeping in a single leaf of the banyan tree covering the full leaf, such a magician - he ate the whole world but lies in a small banyan leaf - is it not magic? - annamum kEzhalum meenumaaya aadhiyai naagai azhagiyaarai - that old stuff which became the swan, the boar, and the fish - that beautiful lady who is in naagai - the gender now in confusion - is it or appears so - yes - once immersed into his beauty - all senses goes. So rules do not apply there - so first a male - next azhagiyaar- a female beauty- that is why even if he sees the breasts or thighs - it is welcome. You can decide whether it is ok if he looks at you like described here - is it decency? Or want to feel shy - or all gone when he looks at. Oh, what if somebody mocks at - for his kataaksham is more worth than all these fragile words of common folks. So can I get that decent man's look on me - kidaikkumaa andha decent nOkku on my chest, achO oru azhagiyavaa - krishNa krishNa the beauty. Dhasan Vasudevan m.g. azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam ramanuja/ b.. ramanuja c.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2004 Report Share Posted March 15, 2004 Dear sri padmanabhan swami thank you for the thiruiruththam and ashta buyakaram references on the same context of our decent man krisNa having a amorous look at the nayakis. On this ashtabuyakaram paasuram referred by you, I wrote the following, of course with a different outlook. but that reference is quite nice. thought will share with all, since i recall this may be in malaola net groups then [may be 1999]. quote -- Dear Srivaishnava perunthagaiyeer, In the thiru ashtabujakaram group of paasurams, the last line reads 'attabuyakaraththEn enRarE' in the 4000 divya prabandam books (2 books published by different persons) I have. But Srimaan Madhavakkannan Swamy (MK) has mentioned attabuyakaraththaan. Please advise me, if, I have to correct both the books for any printing mistake, and if I am wrong. Attabuyakaraththaan is one residing in the place called attabuyakaram. Further attabuyakaraththaan- avan -III person - a sort of anniyaththanam - separation is inherent in this addressing. Whereas, if, it is addressed as attabuyakaraththEn, immediately honey is in the tongue. Even while pronouncing the word, an intimacy develops. 'KaNNamma enRa pEr sollum pothilE enthan naavilE amudhu ooruthE' says a krishna baktha who enjoyed kannan as kannamma, as his ardent lover. Also a thought went like this- in kongu tamil dialect, words end as 'enna solluthEn' etc for the first person while talking. So the poet might have written as though the Lord uses the same dialect as kongu locals speak. But this kshetram is not in Erode or Darmapuri district, but in Kancheepuram where the dialect is clear. So no chance for the poet to use such a dialect. The lord answers the vanchi, parakaala naayaki (PN), as I am the thEn. Because she is in love, He is the sudha rasam or madhu rasam for her. Perhaps, he only said attabuyakaraththaan only but she heard it as thEn (because of kaathanmai) and recorded in the paasuram as thEn. The colour confusion for PN is very much prevalent in this kshetram also. iruNda ambutham pOnRu amchudar pOnRu alai kadal pOnRu karunkadal pOnRu pOthavizh kaayaam poo neelam punaintha mEgam kaaviyoppaar kadalEyumoppaar According to the mental faculty at the moment, the colour of the Lord is also changes for PN. The bakthaas can link the 'kaakkai chiraginilE nandalala' for added taste here. thanjam ivarkku en valaiyum nillaa nenjamum thammathE sinthiththErku vanji marungul nerunga nOkki vaai thiranthu onRu paniththathu uNdu nanjam udaiththivar nOkkum nOkkam naan ivar thammai ariya maattEn anjuvan ivar aar kol enna attabuyakaraththEn enRaarE. Just do a little readjustment of words in this paasuram. Then it is really thEn, honey. When she heard the name attabuyakaraththEn, the body bent in prostration and in love, with the idea of taking saraNaagati -thanjam ivarkku ena vaLaiyum (en -ena -the poetic license to shorten). The basic character of the mind is nicely described as nillaa nenjam. It will not stick to one thought and be there at least for few seconds. It will jump immediately to another. So, it is nillaa nenjam. Here Arjunaa's words are on the mind -the manam is worth considering. chanchalam hi mana: krshna pramathi balavad druDam thasyaaham nigraham manyE vaayOriva sudushkaram - 6 - 34 Hey krishnaa, the mind is wavery in nature, shaky to its core, strong basically. I consider, to control this mind, it is difficult like controlling the wind. So nillaa nenjam. But this nillaa nenjamum sinthithErku thammathe. Since PN is always thinking about attabuyakaraththEn, she is qualified to call herself as sinthiththErku. Since the thoughts are on him the nillaa nenjam has surrendered to attabuyakaraththEn - so thammathE. So she declares my mind though wavery in nature is already fixed on him. So first it is bodily saranaagati - next mentally surrendered. Next she decalres 'vanji marungul nerunga nOkki vaai thiranthu onRu paNiththathu uNdu' - he came very near me and said one thing- what is that? - simple- the acceptance of the saranaagati and assurance of the moksham -it cannot be said openly you see - so nerunga nOkki vaai thiranthu onru paNiththathu. After that ' ivar nokkum nanjam udaiththu - his paarvai is having poison - towards whom? - those who are desirous of doing harm to his bhagavathaas like PN. She has realised that his paarvai is with kaarunyam to her but at the same time opponents to her etc have to be afraid of. Is it not said that narasimhan with all his fury towards hiraNyakasibu was at the same time having kaaruNyam to prahlaada who was also standing in the same place. You may wonder both are possible at the same time. But proof is available in the narasimha avathaaram. naan ivar nokkam thannai ariya maattEn- athanaal anjuvan. I do not his idea or aim, why suddenly he sees like this (with nanjam). As a result of this ignorance on his nOkkam- anjuvan, otherwise I am not at all afraid, because he has identified himself to me as attabuyakaraththEn. Any doubts about who issues the acceptance chit for prapatti- visit attabuyakaram and realise for yourself. Already Srimaan Murlidhar Rangaswamy has said 'tad vishno: paramam padam sadaa pascyanti sooraya' in attabuyakaram. Enjoy the thEn by reading once more Dasan Vasudevan M.G. unquote Dhasan MGVasudevan > > nsp [sMTP:aazhwar] > Saturday, March 13, 2004 9:32 PM > ramanuja; oppiliappan > Cc: M.G.Vasudevan > Re: [ramanuja] hey decent man > > Dear shri vAsudEvan swAmi, > > AzhwAr descriptions of amourous glances on a maiden can never be more precise. This so because, she has been subject to such looks. > > The words "She doesnt mind such glances but is worried that her mother will see it" has provoked me into talking a pAsuram from thiru-virutham > "kayalO! numa kaNgaL enRu kaLiRu vinavi niRREr, > ayalOr aRiyilum, Edhenna vArthai..." thiru virutham 15 > > The damsel tells it to the person who had actually come in search of elephant but expresses the opinion that her eyes are like fish. She immediately responds that " What are you talking. What will happen if others hear it?" one interpretation is that she does not mind it but is only worried about the society. That is thiru virutham . > > As far as thiru mozhi is concerned I always regard the atta puyakaram thiru mozhi and this thiru nAgai thiru mozhi as similar. Somehow, both rings the same tone. A sample. > > "vanji marungul nerunga nOkki, vAi thiRandhu onRu paNithadhu vuNdu, > nanjam vudaithu ivar nOkkum nOkkam..." periya thiru mozhi 2-8-9 > > The looks are close to the middle portion of the girl-idai-- it is venomous, is the excalamation by AzhwAr. That is again a compliment given by parakAla nAyaki towards the Lord for His scrutiny of AzhwAr's physical profile. How is that? > > By the way "ivaL vAyil nal vEdham" is a suggestion that one should indulge in good vEdic portions-primarily the talk of the Lord and His auspicious qualities-bhagawadh vishayam.sAma vEdham, purusha sUktham and even thiru-voi-mozhi can be considered so. Is it not? > > rAmAnuja dhAsan > vanamamalai padmanabhan > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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