Guest guest Posted August 30, 2004 Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 srImathE rAmanujAya namah dear bhAgavathAs, It is really an interesting debate that is going on re: "sAththivika ahankAram". Though, smt. sumithra varadarAjan's and others' posts seem convincing, it somehow does not seem right that something termed as 'sAththvika ahankAram" can be part of our sampradAyam. where embAr said "illai enakku edhir, illai enakku edhir", adiyEn has always understood that statement to be the ultimate statement in praising Ramanuja, rather than svami embAr being proud somehow of himself. My understanding is that "As the beautiful vadivazhagu of emperumAnAr is in my mind, there is no comparison to me" (or there are no virOdhis for me). Please note that embAr does not say "Since I have the beautiful vadivazhagu of emperumAnAr in my mind!"; it is clear that the vadivazhagu of emperumAnAr is present in embAr's mind only because of emperumAnAr's grace. So, I have difficulty attributing any "ahankAram" - good, or bad to this statement. Similarly, for "nin thanakkum kuRippaakil kaRkalaam kaviyin poruL thaanE", I have always taken it to mean that AzhvAr wonders at emperumAn's grace in which He has provided AzhvAr with the the most perfect knowledge. Especially, in the previous pAsurams, AzhvAr marvels that he saw emperumAn (kaNdu koNdEnE) with all kinds of attributes in thiru-k-kaNNamangai. In the last pAsuram he starts with "kaNNamangaiyuL kaNdu koNdEn enRu kaadhalaal kalikanRi uRai seidha".. Does this not mean that thirumangai AzhvAr is saying that those who recite these pAsurams will go to mEl ulagaNgaL not because kaliyan said so, but because kaliyan was blessed by perumAL such that he saw perumAL at thiru-k-kaNNamangai, and he described that?. Doesn't this mean that the grace that perumAL showered on kaliyan at thiru-k-kaNNa mangai was so great and abundant, and the resulting knowledge is so pure that kaliyan marvels at His grace - "Oh Lord, the truth be said, if You desired, even You can learn the meanings of these words from me"? If we say that AzhvAr/AchArya had "sAththivika ahankAram", does this not mean that for that moment when they composed/sang the line which we say denotes sAththivika ahankAra, they were thinking of themselves? Can our AchAryAs/AzhvArs EVER think of themselves in this manner? Did they not completely immerse themselves in our Lord, and hence, is not everything they say ONLY praising/marvelling about our Lord? (except in cases where they are in the mode of "koovi koLLum kaaalam innum kuRugaadho? - even here, they cannot bear the separation) AzhvAr emperumAnAr jIyar thiruvadigaLE SaraNam. adiyEn madhurakavi dAsan, varadhan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 30, 2004 Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 Sri: Srimathe Ramanujaya Nama: Dear Sri Varadhan, adiyEn thinks what you have said below is what "sAthvika ahankAram" truly is. > where embAr said "illai enakku edhir, illai enakku > edhir", adiyEn > has always understood that statement to be the ultimate > statement in > praising Ramanuja, rather than svami embAr being proud > somehow of > himself. adiyEn agrees with Sri Padmanabhan Swami that we are getting lost in the words here. I think we should not use the literal definition of the word ahankAram and apply it in the phrase "sAthvika ahankAram". I think what is defined by this phrase is - that pride which comes out of His greatness and the greatness of His devotees. It is not that we have have done something or possess something. It is that their greatness is such that we feel an immense pride in our hearts for them. In general, we hear that one should have no pride. Here it says that we should have pride - but in the right things. An event in Embar's life iluustrates the question of this pride: Some devotees came to Embar and praised him for all his great qualities. Embar accepted them and replied "thagum". The devotees were caught by surprise. Guess they were expecting a major dose of naiccyAnusandhAnam from Embar :-). So, they all went to Ramanuja and asked him about this. Ramanuja told them "Let's go and ask Embar himself". So, they all came back to Embar and Ramanuja asked him why he did what he did. Embar replied that "How could I not accept that I had those qualities? If I did, then it would mean that a direct disciple of Ramanuja did not possess such good qualities. Not possessing them does not mean anything to me. But it would bring down the greatness of Ramanuja. Therefore, I accepted them". This is similar to our sampradhAyam, where even though the general refrain is that we should have no kAmam, our acharyas state we should have kAmam - but only for Him. Recall the Ramanuja Nootrandadhi phrase "kaNNanukkE Amadhu kAmam". So, I guess, we could call this "sAthvika kAmam" :-). Azhvar Emberumanar Jeeyar Thiruvadigale Sharanam adiyEn madhurakavi dAsan _______________________________ Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Enter now. http://promotions./goldrush Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 31, 2004 Report Share Posted August 31, 2004 Sri: Srimathe Ramanujaya Nama: Dear Sri Venkatesan, adiyEn feels that you have explained very well the context of the "pride" being discussed in this thread. The illustrated example dives home the point we need to understand, Thanks a lot........ adiyEn rAmAnujadAsan aravind rAman TCA Venkatesan <vtca wrote: Sri: Srimathe Ramanujaya Nama: Dear Sri Varadhan, adiyEn thinks what you have said below is what "sAthvika ahankAram" truly is. > where embAr said "illai enakku edhir, illai enakku > edhir", adiyEn > has always understood that statement to be the ultimate > statement in > praising Ramanuja, rather than svami embAr being proud > somehow of > himself. adiyEn agrees with Sri Padmanabhan Swami that we are getting lost in the words here. I think we should not use the literal definition of the word ahankAram and apply it in the phrase "sAthvika ahankAram". I think what is defined by this phrase is - that pride which comes out of His greatness and the greatness of His devotees. It is not that we have have done something or possess something. It is that their greatness is such that we feel an immense pride in our hearts for them. In general, we hear that one should have no pride. Here it says that we should have pride - but in the right things. An event in Embar's life iluustrates the question of this pride: Some devotees came to Embar and praised him for all his great qualities. Embar accepted them and replied "thagum". The devotees were caught by surprise. Guess they were expecting a major dose of naiccyAnusandhAnam from Embar :-). So, they all went to Ramanuja and asked him about this. Ramanuja told them "Let's go and ask Embar himself". So, they all came back to Embar and Ramanuja asked him why he did what he did. Embar replied that "How could I not accept that I had those qualities? If I did, then it would mean that a direct disciple of Ramanuja did not possess such good qualities. Not possessing them does not mean anything to me. But it would bring down the greatness of Ramanuja. Therefore, I accepted them". This is similar to our sampradhAyam, where even though the general refrain is that we should have no kAmam, our acharyas state we should have kAmam - but only for Him. Recall the Ramanuja Nootrandadhi phrase "kaNNanukkE Amadhu kAmam". So, I guess, we could call this "sAthvika kAmam" :-). Azhvar Emberumanar Jeeyar Thiruvadigale Sharanam adiyEn madhurakavi dAsan _______________________________ Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Enter now. http://promotions./goldrush azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam ramanuja/ ramanuja Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Enter now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 31, 2004 Report Share Posted August 31, 2004 This was indeed an excellent post. What a wonderful example that clarifies the confusion in the context!!! Thanks to Shri Venkatesan Swami. adiyen, Ramanuja Dasan ramanuja, Aravind Raman <aravind108> wrote: > Sri: > Srimathe Ramanujaya Nama: > > Dear Sri Venkatesan, > > adiyEn feels that you have explained very well the context of the "pride" being discussed in this thread. The illustrated example dives home the point we need to understand, > > Thanks a lot........ > > adiyEn rAmAnujadAsan > aravind rAman > > TCA Venkatesan <vtca> wrote: > Sri: > Srimathe Ramanujaya Nama: > > Dear Sri Varadhan, > > adiyEn thinks what you have said below is what "sAthvika > ahankAram" truly is. > > > where embAr said "illai enakku edhir, illai enakku > > edhir", adiyEn > > has always understood that statement to be the ultimate > > statement in > > praising Ramanuja, rather than svami embAr being proud > > somehow of > > himself. > > adiyEn agrees with Sri Padmanabhan Swami that we are > getting lost in the words here. I think we should not > use the literal definition of the word ahankAram and > apply it in the phrase "sAthvika ahankAram". > ...................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 31, 2004 Report Share Posted August 31, 2004 ramanuja, TCA Venkatesan <vtca> wrote: > Sri: > Srimathe Ramanujaya Nama: > > > An event in Embar's life iluustrates the question of > this pride: Some devotees came to Embar and praised > him for all his great qualities. Embar accepted them > and replied "thagum". The devotees were caught by > surprise. Guess they were expecting a major dose of > naiccyAnusandhAnam from Embar :-). So, they all went > to Ramanuja and asked him about this. Ramanuja told > them "Let's go and ask Embar himself". So, they all > came back to Embar and Ramanuja asked him why he did > what he did. Dear Sriman Venkatesan, It is not in his interest or thinking abt himself ("aham"kAram) but in the interests of AchArya's followers. What is the exact word our pUrvAchArya's have used for it? We have no problem, if it is sAttvika ahankAram! Dasan Vishnu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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