Seshatvam and paratantriyam

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October 20, 2004

Srimathe Ramanujaya namaha;

Swamin,

The subtle soul which consist of our mind

,intelligence and ego carries our soul to one body to

another and carries our karmas also. according to that

we have to act in this life due to our past karmas

which we did in our previous countless lives.The soul

is encaged in this body. It has only minute

independence.so one cannot become like Ramanuja even

if he wishes, if he had done bad karmas in his past

births.If one goes behind women and wine it is because

of his desire and because of his karma only and it is

not because of God's will also. God only sanctions our

desire. If we want to be a good person he sanctions

so we take effort to become a good person. If we want

to be a bad person He sanctions that also. one cannot

suddenly become a good devottee in a single

birth.Unless he acquired good pious Karmas in his

previous births it is impossible.Even if one had done

bad karma, by his devotional activities one can wash

away his previous karma.We should only have our

willingness and take efforts to advance in bhakthi

and we get God's mercy.Our willing to serve god or not

is because of our minute independence and because of

our Past Karmas also.. our suffering and happiness is

our own making.,

Krishna dasee

Vedavalli Ranganathan

>

> We need not worry, what the lesser developed souls

> will do. We cannot be thinking

> what will happen if they will take advantage of this

> arguement.

>

> See it is very clear that Paramatma is everything.

> We are born as willed by him. We donot have the

> choice of parents. It is only the subtle soul that

> controls this entire

> drama called life.

>

> By sadana the jivatma, gets the knowledge. Now

> people may ask, I want to be Ramanuja

> why am i not able to be? Why is it that I go behind

> women and wine though I want to

> lead a pious life? Now where is SWATANTRYAM? The

> swatantryam of the Jiva is also

> able to act only with the will of GOD and

> paratantryam.

>

> Hope this clarifies.

>

> Dasan/raghavan

>

> vtca <vtca wrote:

>

> Dear Sriman Vishnu,

>

> I get the feeling that you are driving toward the

> idea

> that shedding free will or accepting sEshatvam is

> also

> His act and not ours.

>

> In which case, here's my question: if a soul does

> not

> accept its sEshatva nature or claims it is a

> swatantra

> (and most of us qualify for this) - is that act one

> of

> free will of the jIvAtma or not? I am sure you see

> my

> concern here. Everyone will then justify every act

> of

> their's as that of the paramAtma's.

>

> adiyEn madhurakavi dAsan

>

> ramanuja, "Vishnu"

> <vsmvishnu> wrote:

> > Now I will ask you one question. The free will or

> swAtantyram is

> shed

> > out of our free will or not?

> >

> > Dasan

> > Vishnu

> >

azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam

>

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October 20, 2004

Dear Vishnuswami

you have asked

Now I will ask you one question. The free will or swAtantyram is shed

out of our free will or not?

The question can be answered in two ways according to the different view points

of vadakalai acharyas and thenkalai acharyas.

The Lord wold need a reason to shower His Grace. Otherwise He can be accused of

partiality to certain souls.Invariably, the jivas have to suffer the cosequences

of prarabdha and sanchita Karmas. The Lord ,out of grace has given the ways of

Bhakthi and Prapathi to cut short the cycle of births and deaths. Bhakthi and

prapathi have the effect of mitigating the prarabdda Karmas which have anyhow to

be suffered and removing the sanchita Karmas.

The Jivatmas either due to previous good deeds or the Lord's nirhetuka krupai

resort to Bhakthi and prapathi.They surrender their free will to the will of the

Lord.

Bhakthi and prapathi are desirable goals either way.

I stand to correction by learned members of the group,

Adiyen Ramanujadasan

Soundararajan.

AzwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE sharanam

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October 20, 2004

Srimathe ramanujaya Namaha

Dear Bhagavatas,

Amidst the deep discussion about a very strong subject by many great bhagavatas

let adiyen put forth some clues that might be of some help to the discussions,

Sri Pillai ulagariyan in his tattvatrayam says,

"sAmsArika pravruththigalil karthruthvam svaroopa prayukthamandru" (33)

"guNasamsarkakrutham" (34)

"karthruthvam thAn ishvarAdheenam" (35)

"seshamAgaiyAvadhu- sandhana kusuma thAmbhoolAdhigalai pOlE avanukku eshta

viniyOgArhamAyirukkai" (40)

"eppOdu evargalukku lakshanam seshatvaththOdE koodina jnAthruthvam" (61)

If one goes through the chit prakaranam in the great work of Sri

pillailokacharya Tattvatrayam along with the vyakhyanam then a great clarity can

be obtained in this subject.

Seshatvam is the svaroopam of a jeevatma ("seshatvamE svaroopa" says Sri PL).

But only when the jnanam that has been covered by avidhya glows, one understands

his true nature.

" jalaththukku agnisamsrushta stAlee samsargaththAlE

owshNyasabdhAdhigalundAgirApOlE, AthmAvukku achit sambhandhaththAlE avidya karma

vAsanA ruchigal vundAginrana" (46)

"achit kazhindhavArE avidhyAdhigal kazhiyum enbargal"

So if one accepts his seshatva/paratantriya svaroopam it is nothing but removal

of the dirt (avidya/agyanam) that as covered his jnanam all along and made him

think that he is svathantran. It is only the realisation and not something that

is cultivated. This realisation of our true nature can be obtained only due to

the nirheduka krupai of emperuman who does a lot of krushi (paththi uzhavan) to

cultivate that "bhakthi roopApanna jnanam" in all of us and credits us all with

the profit of the yield, the moksha. We enjoy the ultimate joy without doing

anything but just accepting what that lord after so much efforts grants us

happily. Like a mother holding the hands of a kid and writing a letter on the

paper and then praising the kid for writing correctly emperuman does everything

and grants us moksha. But if the kid refuses to write at all then the mother

either scolds, advices or sometimes even beats to make the kid write. That is

what emperuman also does. The kid has no free will it is governed by the mother

similar is the case of all jeevatmas who are none other than the kids of the

divine supreme lord.

Adiyen apologises for any unknowingly committed mistakes purely due to adiyen's

ignorance.

Azhvar emperumAnAr Jeeyer thiruvadigalE sharaNam

Adiyen ramanuja dAsee

Sumithra Varadarajan

-

vaidhehi_nc

Wednesday, October 20, 2004 8:37 PM

[ramanuja] Re: Seshatvam and paratantriyam

Sri:

Srimathe Ramanujaya nama:

This post reminded me of the Physicist Einstein's quote:

Either you consider everything as God's miracle or human effort(One

can't have both as it sounds ridiculous). Which category an

individual belongs to is upto the the individual's mental

status/growth!

> TCA writes:Everyone will then justify every act of their's as that

> of the paramAtma's.

Dear TCA,How do you explain AzhvArs stance,that is, attributing

everything to emperumAn?

AzhvAr emperumAnAr jIyar thiruvadigaLE sharaNam

dAsAnu dAsI

NC Nappinnai

ramanuja, Vijaya Raghavan <svrvan> wrote:

>

> Swamin,

>

> We need not worry, what the lesser developed souls will do. We

cannot be thinking

> what will happen if they will take advantage of this arguement.

>

> See it is very clear that Paramatma is everything. We are born as

willed by him. We donot have the choice of parents. It is only the

subtle soul that controls this entire

> drama called life.

>

> By sadana the jivatma, gets the knowledge. Now people may ask, I

want to be Ramanuja

> why am i not able to be? Why is it that I go behind women and wine

though I want to

> lead a pious life? Now where is SWATANTRYAM? The swatantryam of

the Jiva is also

> able to act only with the will of GOD and paratantryam.

>

> Hope this clarifies.

>

> Dasan/raghavan

>

> vtca <vtca> wrote:

>

> Dear Sriman Vishnu,

>

> I get the feeling that you are driving toward the idea

> that shedding free will or accepting sEshatvam is also

> His act and not ours.

>

> In which case, here's my question: if a soul does not

> accept its sEshatva nature or claims it is a swatantra

> (and most of us qualify for this) - is that act one of

> free will of the jIvAtma or not? I am sure you see my

> concern here. Everyone will then justify every act of

> their's as that of the paramAtma's.

>

> adiyEn madhurakavi dAsan

>

> ramanuja, "Vishnu" <vsmvishnu> wrote:

> > Now I will ask you one question. The free will or swAtantyram is

> shed

> > out of our free will or not?

> >

> > Dasan

> > Vishnu

> >

azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam

b..

c..

October 20, 2004

Dear Nappinnai,

This gets us right back to what to the question of

what exactly is nirhetuka krupa.

Let me pose you a question. Why does Azhvar say

iruththinEn in "en uNarvinuLLE iruththinEn adhuvum

avanadhu innaruLE" instead of "en uNarvinuLLe

vandhu irundhAn"?

Azhvars do attribute all their good deeds to the

Lord. But do they attribute their bad deeds to the

Lord too? Why does Thirumangai Azhvar say "vAdinEn"

instead of "vAttinAy"?

adiyEn madhurakavi dAsan

--- vaidhehi_nc <nappinnai_nc wrote:

> > TCA writes:Everyone will then justify every act of

> their's as that

> > of the paramAtma's.

>

> Dear TCA,How do you explain AzhvArs stance,that is,

> attributing

> everything to emperumAn?

>

October 21, 2004

Swamin,

Yes all is as willed by HIM. The rest swatantryam and self and all nothing but

illusions.

But, let me put my view on reading vedas and leading a life of righteousness.

All these help one concentrate on HIM. He is showing the way, do this properly,

make your mind rest on ME and ME ALONE, try and try, that is how you got this

Manhood,

and that is the only way to reach higher states.

Dasan/raghavan

Vishnu <vsmvishnu wrote:

Dear Sriman Raghavan,

Then I go by your other mails. It is not swAtantryam in its real sense but

ignorance or thinking that we are swatantram. This kind of thought that we are

indepenent is called ahankAram in pUrvAchArya texts. Lord will allow our acts to

be accordingly, with full control on them. He will give us bhakti whenever He

wishes and not by mechanically browsing vEdas etc., as explained by krshNa and

interpreted by rAmAnuja.

Nice to see your analysis.

Dasan

Vishnu

Vijaya Raghavan <svrvan wrote:

Swamin,

Swtantryam will aim for paratantryam only if emperuman's swatantryam decides so.

Dasan/raghvan

Vishnu wrote:

ramanuja, rajan s wrote:

>

> Dear All

>

> The free will or the swatantriam of the soul is thus surrendered as

sung by the Azhwar.

Dear Sriman Soundararajan,

To be very frank, I do not know whether we have swAtantryam or

pAratantryam except for going by some concepts.

Now I will ask you one question. The free will or swAtantyram is shed

out of our free will or not?

Dasan

Vishnu

> The paratantriam is a state of mind.

>

Azhwar Emberumanar Jeeyar thiruvadigale sharanam.

>

> Lakshmi Narasimhan wrote:

>

> Well,

> We have independence(swa). Using that independence(swa), if we give

> up that very independence then that is pAratantryam(dependencde).

> adiyen,

> rAmAnuja dAsan

>

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October 21, 2004

Dear Bhagavathas

Another rejoinder on the subject from my father that i

thought would be helpful to the group in understanding

this complex concept.

Adiyen

Aravindan

--------------

I read your latest mails on Sand P, The rejoinder to

your FIL’s Thirumaalai quote is very clever and not

answerable satisfactorily. It is like Parasara Bhattar

asking the Buddhists whether their statement ’Sarvam

Sunyam’ includes the statement also! If they say yes,

the statement disappears and there is thus nothing to

argue about. If they say no, then the statement exists

and its existence goes against what is stated by

them, namely their Sunyavada. This is something like

Russell’s paradox.-the liar saying ’everything I

assert is false’! Russell can startle you with such

puzzles as this-the even numbers are but half of all

numbers and yet there are just as many of them as

there are numbers, since for every number there is its

even double!.

>From the limited knowledge that I have I will try to

tell you about my thinking on this complex subject.

I find Ramanuja’s concept of the soul having limited

autonomy- freedom for the first action, difficult to

accept. ,purely on the philosophical plane. Let me

elaborate on this.

B S 2 3 18 says Na atma sruthear nithyatvacha

thapyaha.

Atma- soul

Na- is not created

Sruthear-Since Vedas tell so.

Tapyaha-from the same Vedas

Nithyatva Cha –Atma is eternal (Is what we

understand)

This is a very important Sutra which says Soul is

eternal and not created.

Linking this up with another Mahavakya of the

Upanishad Agre…..Ekamaivam adweethiyam we have to say

that the Soul is but Brahmam itself. I will now give

you briefly how Ramanuja interprets this Sutra.

In the beginning Brahmam was One containing Soul and

inanimate things in their Atomic or Shukshma form. It

willed Let Me become Many . It let out or brought

forth the Universe of names and forms of Souls and

inanimate things in their Sthula form. This

manifestation of B from the shukshma to sthula form is

creation

In the sthula form, B permeates all souls and

inanimate things and acts as the Niyantha or Director

or inner Controller. Thus at the time of creation, B

is the clay(Ubadhana karanam), Potter ( nimittha

karanam) wheel, stick etc( sahakari karanam) and the

pot itself( karium)

Now coming to this Sutra, Soul indeed is not created

if we mean by creation ‘one thing becoming another’.

That creation is called swaroopa change. In the case

of inanimate things that is what happens at the time

of creation-Swaroopa changes. But in the case of Soul

its swaroopa does not change but only its swabhava.

Creation for soul means expansion of its knowledge

from the contracted state of its knowledge. Only

soul’s knowledge expands by linking itself with body

and senses. Since Soul’s swaroopa does not change ,the

Sutra says that Soul is not created and that it is

eternal

In the Sthula state,

Inanimate things which are not provided with senses

are called Bhogyam- those that are enjoyed

Soul with its expanded dharmabutha knowledge given by

the senses is the Bhogtha.- that which enjoys

Eswara is the controller or Niyantha.

B forever has a vishista state.

In the Karana state it is having as its Sarira, souls

and inanimate things in their atomic or shukshma

state.

In the kariya state it has as sarira , souls and

inanimate things in the changed nama, rupa form – in

the sthula state.

Eswara always has soul and inanimate as its prahara-

prahara is that which cannot be separated from

something. Eswara is prahari. Prahara and prahari

cannot be separated and together it is called B.

The change that happens- the vikharam- at the time of

creation ,is applicable to all the three, namely chit,

achit and eswaran. This is difficult to

understand-since Niyantha now has ‘changed Chit and

Achit.’as its Sarira.

The chit and achit are parts, ‘as it were’ of Brahmam-

since it is said B is one only, non differentiated.

Let me now introduce the relevant B S that talk about

Soul and its characteristics as explained in Sri

bhashya.

There are a total of 35 sutras relating to the soul

in BS. They are put in 5 Adhikaranas by Ramanuja in

his Sribhashyam.. The adhikaranas are named

Atmadhikaranam(1),Gnathikaranam(14),Kartruthadhikaranam(7),Paraayaththadhikarana\

m(2),

and Amsadhikaranam(11). The numbers in brackets

indicate the number of sutras in those Adhikaranas..

The sutras are from 2 3 18 to 2 3 52. Apart from this

BS talks briefly about Soul’s autonomy in sutras 2 1

34 and 35. Let us see some of the sutras.

2 1 34 B does not have partiality and unkindness

since it expects or waits.

The explanation goes something like this. B does not

drive the soul to act in a particular way. If that is

so B can be faulted to be partial and unkind. , since

B makes someone to do good and some other to do bad B

gives us freedom to take the first step and then

directs us to take further steps accordingly. This is

the limited autonomy concept.

We can also say that our Karma determines our first

step, making every action predetermined. If we think

like that, we have to say that B expects our Karmic

first step before directing us further. Karma thus

removes our free will.

If we see the next sutra it seems Ramanuja’s concept

of limited autonomy or free will for the soul appears

not correct.

2 1 35 If you say there no karma in the first birth

,it is not correct, since there is no beginning for

the soul.

It appears to indicate that the first step we take is

onaccount of our Karma- other wise what is the need

for mentioning Karma here?Taking the two sutras

together,we can say that there is no Free will even in

our first step .

Soul and karma are eternal and so there is no first

sin. This sutra seems to knock down the free will

theory.

2 3 40 says that the krittrtvam of Jeeva or soul is a

delegated power, delegated by B.

2 3 41 says that B directs the soul depending upon the

efforts of the soul, in order to ensure that the

Vedic injunctions of dos and donts do not go waste.

This seems to indicate granting of free will. If B

directs every thing, to whom does the Vedas say Follow

Dharma, do not steal, do not lie etc?. God cannot

direct Himself

Now you can see the confusion. If one gives total

directing power to B then there is no free will. There

is no question of doing saranagathi to God. But from a

practical point it is preferable to assume that we

have free will to make sure the dos and donts of Vedas

etc are made valid

Free will gives a boost to our ego and makes us

ambitious to achieve goals in life. Perhaps your FIL

can ask the swami who has asked if the act of

surrender is on account of our free will or on account

of His direction, the question that if every happening

is as per His will, why are the Vedas command us to be

truthful etc- for whom are those commands?

However, I am a ‘Deterministic’ fellow in the purely

philosophical plane .

Affly,

Appa.

--- Vijaya Raghavan <svrvan wrote:

>

> Swamin,

>

> Yes all is as willed by HIM. The rest swatantryam

> and self and all nothing but illusions.

>

> But, let me put my view on reading vedas and leading

> a life of righteousness.

>

> All these help one concentrate on HIM. He is showing

> the way, do this properly, make your mind rest on ME

> and ME ALONE, try and try, that is how you got this

> Manhood,

> and that is the only way to reach higher states.

>

> Dasan/raghavan

>

> Vishnu <vsmvishnu wrote:

>

> Dear Sriman Raghavan,

>

> Then I go by your other mails. It is not swAtantryam

> in its real sense but ignorance or thinking that we

> are swatantram. This kind of thought that we are

> indepenent is called ahankAram in pUrvAchArya texts.

> Lord will allow our acts to be accordingly, with

> full control on them. He will give us bhakti

> whenever He wishes and not by mechanically browsing

> vEdas etc., as explained by krshNa and interpreted

> by rAmAnuja.

>

> Nice to see your analysis.

>

> Dasan

> Vishnu

>

> Vijaya Raghavan <svrvan wrote:

>

> Swamin,

>

> Swtantryam will aim for paratantryam only if

> emperuman's swatantryam decides so.

>

> Dasan/raghvan

>

> Vishnu wrote:

>

> ramanuja, rajan s wrote:

> >

> > Dear All

> >

> > The free will or the swatantriam of the soul is

> thus surrendered as

> sung by the Azhwar.

>

> Dear Sriman Soundararajan,

>

> To be very frank, I do not know whether we have

> swAtantryam or

> pAratantryam except for going by some concepts.

>

> Now I will ask you one question. The free will or

> swAtantyram is shed

> out of our free will or not?

>

> Dasan

> Vishnu

>

> > The paratantriam is a state of mind.

> >

>

> Azhwar Emberumanar Jeeyar thiruvadigale sharanam.

> >

> > Lakshmi Narasimhan wrote:

> >

> > Well,

> > We have independence(swa). Using that

> independence(swa), if we give

> > up that very independence then that is

> pAratantryam(dependencde).

> > adiyen,

> > rAmAnuja dAsan

> >

> > Sponsor

> >

> > Links

> >

> > ramanuja/

> >

> > ramanuja

> >

> Terms of

> Service.

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> azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam

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October 21, 2004

Sri:

Srimathe Ramanujaya nama:

Dear Sriman Soundararajan,

> The Lord wold need a reason to shower His Grace. Otherwise He can

> be accused of partiality to certain souls.

Humble praNAms to you. I don't think one needs to

belong to certain kalai as BG is for everybody. We accuse God(being

partial) b'coz of our limited knowledge as we don't know our past

sins and for that matter even in the present birth how many

apacArams we do unconsciously,only He knows. He has all the records.

So He knows when to liberate us. Lord needing a reason to shower His

grace has no place in TK school of thought if my understanding is

right! When Lord gave so many procedures, there should be one method

which says you don't have to follow any procedure also(like null

set,or be like acit). B'coz there are jIvAtmAs which are totally

incapable of even following the simplest procedures. If we go by

strict procedures, we need to ask "how many brahmins learn and

preach vedas or spend time in DDs instead of sitting abroad(within

the home country as well as outside)?" Devotees,please don't get

mad/misunderstand that I'm offending veda shastras! We can refer to

BG 7.14-20 slokas. All this realization happens after many cycles

and that too b'coz of His grace.

AzhvAr emperumAnAr jIyar thiruvadigaLE sharaNam

dAsAnu dAsI

October 21, 2004

Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha

One interesting thing is told by our acharyas regarding this paasuram. Azhvar

says "vAzhum sOmbar" that indirectly indicates that there is one another

category of "thAzhum sOmbar". 'thAzhum sombar' is one who doesnt do anything

due to tamo gunam. But 'vAzhum sOmbar' is one who doesnt do anything being a

prapanna ("mArbilE kai vaiththu vuranga prApthi") who has realised that

everything is done only by emperuman. What a great paasuram and really great

vyakhyanams by our acharyas.

Azhvar emperumAnAr Jeeyer thiruvadigale sharanam

Adiyen ramanuja dAsee

Sumithra Varadarajan

-

Vishnu

Wednesday, October 20, 2004 11:08 PM

[ramanuja] Re: Seshatvam and paratantriyam

ramanuja, rajan s <rajan_ramaswamy> wrote:

>

> Dear All

>

> The concept of paratantriam is expalined by Thondar adipodi Azhwar

in his Thirumalai, 38th pasuram which is as follows.This is the core

pasuram of Thirumalai.

>

> >

> Memporul pogavittu--Keeping aside concept of moksha and all that(

Memporul-moksham)

>

> Meymaiyai migavunarndhu---understanding the nature of Sriman

Narayana(meymai- The Lord)

>

> Ambarisu arindhukondu---knowing the real aim of life (ambarisu-

kainkaryam)

>

> Aimbulan agathatakki---controlling the five senses

>

> Kambara Thalai siraithu---giving up all ego

>

> Un kadaitalai irunthu ---residing in your vicinity

>

> Vazum sombarai--- the real paratantrins( sombar- people of such

nature)

The real lazy people, who do not make any efforts, but reside close

to you, by realizing their SEshatvam with the thought that it is by

your grace (hence no ego). What a wonderful pASuram? I missed reading

it when I replied to you previously.

Dear Sriman Rajan, all these pASurams are wonderful examples of

SEshtvam, pAratantryam etc. They have to be learnt only from the

learned. Perhaps that is why maNavALa mAmunigaL stresses on AchArya

sambandham,as AchArya makes us realize our natural SEsha-SEshi

sambadnham.

Dasanudasan

Vishnu

> Ugathi polum----you seem to like these people

>

> Soozh punal arangathane---- God Ranganatha

>

> The free will or the swatantriam of the soul is thus surrendered as

sung by the Azhwar.

>

> The paratantriam is a state of mind.

>

> Adiyen Ramanujadasan

>

> Soundararajan

>

> Azhwar Emberumanar Jeeyar thiruvadigale sharanam.

>

> Lakshmi Narasimhan <nrusimhann> wrote:

>

> Well,

> We have independence(swa). Using that independence(swa), if we give

> up that very independence then that is pAratantryam(dependencde).

> adiyen,

> rAmAnuja dAsan

>

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azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam

b..