Guest guest Posted October 4, 2004 Report Share Posted October 4, 2004 SRIMATHE RAMANUJAYA NAMAHA. The first 27 sutras of the 3rd chapter of Brahma sutras which talk about the ascent and descent of the soul, shed some light on cloning too. In his bhashya to the 1st sutra, (3-1-1), Ramanuja speaks about PanchAgni Vidhya which explains 5 oblations, in the forms of shraddha, soma, rain, food and seed. They are offered in 5 fires (i.e., objects imagined to be fires for the sake of upasana) –namely heavens, parjanya, earth, man and woman. The 5th oblation comes to be designated as man. Explanation for this is found in subsequent verses whereby it is said that the soul which descends to be born comes through water (rain), earth, plant food , man and finally woman. In the first 4 stages the descent is quick and the soul is only connected to the ‘oblations’ / fire and does not undergo or experience any karma. The process is irreversible and once the soul has entered the chain, it is headed to be entered into the womb. There is no question of not getting discarded mid way. Verse 26 clearly states that till the soul remains with in the man’s body, it just stays only ‘connected’ to him and is not actually born. Only when it enters the womb of the woman, the soul is born. There is no mincing of words about this according to Brahma sutras. In the case of cloning arising from human endeavour, thanks to advancement in science, the 5th oblation (mating) is missing. Verses 18 & 19 of the Brahma sutra do speak about this probability. Verse 19 tells about the cases of Drona, Drupadi and Dhrishtadhyumna as without 5th oblation. They have been recorded in Smritis. There is another type also who are not born through the 5th oblation. Of the three types of souls, the lowest ones, namely, the evil-doers (the former two are the ones who go to the abode of gods and the abode of fathers) ‘do not ascend or descend from the world of moon’. (That is why the heavens never get filled up) ‘ It follows therefore that the 3rd place or evil-doers do not depend on the 5th oblation for the origination of a body. They are born irrespective of this oblation.” (verse 18) Verse 20 tells about other 3 types which are born without 5th oblation. They are the ones born of eggs, from living beings and those that germinate. But one qualitative difference between these types and the cloning of today is that they have been part of the scheme of Creation of the Lord. No where in scriptures, are there references to empowering men (by artificial tools) to skip the 5th oblation. Even in the birth of Kauravas, the division of the embryo into 100 containers happen after the 5th oblation is completed. (Growth of embryo outside the womb is something mankind might someday achieve, if we go by this precedence but the same can not be said of deliberate skipping of the 5th oblation). This (cloning) is also akin to man taking up creation in his hand, which is a prohibited act as in the case of Vishwamithra. There are 2 sides to this issue. One is that since the soul descends through 5 oblations, human cloning without 5th oblation is impossible. If at all man succeeds in getting it done, it would be that of the birth of evil-doers whose evil karma would doom them to bad conditions of living. In other words the creator-man would face further problems in keeping up his ‘creation’ than would achieve any positive results. Another side of it is the very undesirability or unsustainability of cloning. The sudden death of the first animal clone (Dolly, the sheep) showing signs of sudden aging reminds one of similar trends noticed in the created world of Vishwamithra. It is by hearsay (from elders) that whatever was created by Vishwamithra fell short in some aspect from the original world created by the Creator. For instance there is a variety of curry leaves (karivEppilai) known as ‘Vishwamithra karivEpilai, which would grow yellow with aging. Whereas the original karivEppilai does not grow yellow. It just whithers. This might just be a figment of imagination (I don’t know for sure whether such a variety of karivEppilai ever existed. Can any one clarify?) But the point that must be noted is that our system of knowledge does not foresee the creation and sustainability of anything that is not part of the scheme of Creation by Brahman. Human cloning is one such thing. Regards, Jayasree saranathan. New and Improved Mail - Send 10MB messages! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 5, 2004 Report Share Posted October 5, 2004 SrI: Dear SrI.Vishnu, 1. You are right! However, in sampradAyam we stress more on studying directly under feet of a sadAchAryan. For those working overseas like us, the substitute is hearing to the tele-upanyasams,CDs etc (radioramanuja!). Please refer to SrI.Mukundan Pattangi svAmi's last week mail quoting a verse from mAmunigaL's upadESa ratna mAlai. Better to avoid self- study!! 2. Dear SrI.Vijayaraghavan, Your doubt is genuine! But we are not talking about finite numbers; jeevans are infinite. Infinite-less-any amount is still infinite! Also, infinite-add-any amount is also infinite! This is true for both vibutis! 3. aDiyEn has written on this issue to Smt. Jayasree in a private mail. We need more light on this. Thanks & regards dAsan Mukundan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 5, 2004 Report Share Posted October 5, 2004 Following is only a conjecture (in lighter vein): Probably souls which had other bodies such as insects etc are getting human bodies. Hence population (of humans!) is increasing!!! Vijaya Raghavan <svrvan wrote: Yes swamin. This is an etrnal cyle. So the SUM TOTAL of ATMAN is same in the universe. Now let us take the enlightened sould, who have done sranagathi in real, and are up above as nitya suri's to the lord. These atman never coms backto earth. By this way the population of the earth has to decrease. But it is increasing. Why? Can the learned men of this group explain this rationally for the welfare of us all. Aparadaan kshmasva. Dasan/raghavan Mukundan wrote: SrI: Dear SrI.Ramanujam, The following are purely based on my understanding by having attended a few kAlakshepams and svAdhyAyam. As it is easy for a learner to comprehend, we can take the lowkIka subject "science" which has concluded that our body is supporting plenty of living beings in and out. There are many pamANams for this in the eternal vEdAs (as we hear from elders, although I've not done vEdAdhyayanam). That's why our viSishtAdvaita siddhAntam clearly says that jeevans are countless and the cycle of creation-sustenance-destruction is also infinite (no Adhyantam) irrespective of whatever number of jeevans get salvation yugam-by-yugam. It is said that a jeevan, after enjoying a good life (or servitute to other dEvAs) in svarga lOkam is kicked out from there and reaches the atmosphere of our bhUlOkam head downwards. It enters the water in the cloud and comes down to earth. It enters the crops/plantations and then the grains. The male human being (or animal) consuming the grains gives place for the jeevan(s). Then the jeevan is either transferred to the female being(garbham) as part of the process of creation or is discarded out and has to undergo this process again..... all by the sankalpam of the Lord. (ref: 'VaiNavam - Or uraiyADal' by SrI.U.vE VN Gopala dEsikAchAr) Similar thing happens to all jeevans (whether from hell or heaven) until it does an upayam to reach His lotus feet. So, the jeevan is there while the gharbam starts. Although there are many simplified books available, aDiyEn advises you to undergo a traditional study under a sadAchAryan of our sampradAyam. dAsan Mukundan azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam ramanuja/ ramanuja Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download now. azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam Sheela V.Belur New and Improved Mail - Send 10MB messages! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2004 Report Share Posted October 6, 2004 Mukundan swami, Totality what we take is 1 so summ total of all atman is constant. There should be explanation for this. Hope some senior person helps me in this. Dasan/raghavan Mukundan <mukrupa wrote: SrI: Dear SrI.Vishnu, 1. You are right! However, in sampradAyam we stress more on studying directly under feet of a sadAchAryan. For those working overseas like us, the substitute is hearing to the tele-upanyasams,CDs etc (radioramanuja!). Please refer to SrI.Mukundan Pattangi svAmi's last week mail quoting a verse from mAmunigaL's upadESa ratna mAlai. Better to avoid self- study!! 2. Dear SrI.Vijayaraghavan, Your doubt is genuine! But we are not talking about finite numbers; jeevans are infinite. Infinite-less-any amount is still infinite! Also, infinite-add-any amount is also infinite! This is true for both vibutis! 3. aDiyEn has written on this issue to Smt. Jayasree in a private mail. We need more light on this. Thanks & regards dAsan Mukundan azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam ramanuja/ ramanuja Take Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2004 Report Share Posted October 6, 2004 SrI: Dear SrI.Vishnu, aDiyEn was struggling with the same question during my initial stages. Although reaching around 40, aDiyEn is not a senior-in-sampradAya matters, as I spent my earlier times going after so many confusing philosophies. However, I've got my answers from a few scholars which I've to share with you, although I'm in the learning process. (Again, I'm prone to mistakes.... ) There are supposed to be 8.4 million types of beings in the world, belonging to various species, classes and races. Within each category, you've countable (like human beings) and infinite living beings. Also, sampradAyam says that an object which has a form & name has a jeevan too (recall 'dhadhipAnDan's claypot), although it is in 'dormant' state.(Its dharma-bhUta gnyAnam has shrunk) Do we have jeevans only in this world? No. They are everywhere. They spread in all the seven lOkAs and in nithya vibhUti. Only the nithyAs and mukthAs do not take birth in bhUlOkam (but they can appear here, as per the tiruvuLLam of the Lord to guide the suffering beings). The jeevans in the leelA vibhUti(which includes chaturmukha brahma lOkam, rudra lOkam, svarga lOkam, naraga lOkam etc.) are subject to the cycle of birth-and-death. They are born as any species based on their karma-vinai and as per the sankalpam of the Lord. (B.G: The Lord places a gharbam in a yOni) So, we should not consider only bhUloka jeevans and in particular only the human beings. So, they remain infinite (Please include all those objects which have form and name). If kulasEkhara AzhvAr says in a pAsuram that he wants to become a step-stone(paDikkaTTu) in tirumalA, it has a meaning in sampradAyam. If an AzhvAr says that he is an 'angrirENu' of a bhAgavathA, it refers to a 'lucky jeevan' in sampradAyam. Hope this helps to comprehend the count(?) of jeevans and the different form of births they are subjected to undergo.(Exclude the reverred-citizens of nithya vibhUti) bhAgavatAngrirENu, Mukundan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2004 Report Share Posted October 6, 2004 Probably what you have said in lighter vein is correct. I have deduced some thing like this only. That the atman gows from single sense stage and that explains the perils of this earth now. In a lighter vein, the lord giving kataksham for anyone singing him, gave human form to all and thus the explosion. But what i am requesting from the learned members of this group is if there is some basis for these thoughts in our texts. dasan/raghavan Sheela Belur <bvsheela wrote: Following is only a conjecture (in lighter vein): Probably souls which had other bodies such as insects etc are getting human bodies. Hence population (of humans!) is increasing!!! Vijaya Raghavan <svrvan wrote: Yes swamin. This is an etrnal cyle. So the SUM TOTAL of ATMAN is same in the universe. Now let us take the enlightened sould, who have done sranagathi in real, and are up above as nitya suri's to the lord. These atman never coms backto earth. By this way the population of the earth has to decrease. But it is increasing. Why? Can the learned men of this group explain this rationally for the welfare of us all. Aparadaan kshmasva. Dasan/raghavan Mukundan wrote: SrI: Dear SrI.Ramanujam, The following are purely based on my understanding by having attended a few kAlakshepams and svAdhyAyam. As it is easy for a learner to comprehend, we can take the lowkIka subject "science" which has concluded that our body is supporting plenty of living beings in and out. There are many pamANams for this in the eternal vEdAs (as we hear from elders, although I've not done vEdAdhyayanam). That's why our viSishtAdvaita siddhAntam clearly says that jeevans are countless and the cycle of creation-sustenance-destruction is also infinite (no Adhyantam) irrespective of whatever number of jeevans get salvation yugam-by-yugam. It is said that a jeevan, after enjoying a good life (or servitute to other dEvAs) in svarga lOkam is kicked out from there and reaches the atmosphere of our bhUlOkam head downwards. It enters the water in the cloud and comes down to earth. It enters the crops/plantations and then the grains. The male human being (or animal) consuming the grains gives place for the jeevan(s). Then the jeevan is either transferred to the female being(garbham) as part of the process of creation or is discarded out and has to undergo this process again..... all by the sankalpam of the Lord. (ref: 'VaiNavam - Or uraiyADal' by SrI.U.vE VN Gopala dEsikAchAr) Similar thing happens to all jeevans (whether from hell or heaven) until it does an upayam to reach His lotus feet. So, the jeevan is there while the gharbam starts. Although there are many simplified books available, aDiyEn advises you to undergo a traditional study under a sadAchAryan of our sampradAyam. dAsan Mukundan azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam ramanuja/ ramanuja Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download now. azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam Sheela V.Belur New and Improved Mail - Send 10MB messages! azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam ramanuja/ ramanuja Mail - You care about security. So do we. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 SRIMATHE RAMANUJAYA NAMAHA. Dear Sow Sheela, Your query requires a long mail to reply. Since I am apprehensive about writing long mails which I am so accustomed to, let me reply in crisp terms (though it means a mail long enough...) First of all, my previous mail on this topic tells about the 3rd category of evil-doers who are born and re-born because of which the heaven never gets filled up(Brahma sutras). It therefore follows that the earth gets filled up. Another angle to this is that this Yuga is the period of wars and strife. Jivas who have accumulated bad karma from anadhi kaalam get to experience the results only in this yuga. No other Yuga has been densely peopled as the present yuga. We hear of peculiar forms of strife and grief only in this yuga. Enormous is the number of jivas with bad karma and enormous and varied are the phalan they had to suffer as a result. Nothing goes unrecorded in the scheme of dharma. Every thought, word and action creat their respective reactions and they have to be experienced subsequently. That is what is happening now. Peace is conspicuous by its absence. It is for the sake of creating suitable conditions for the greiving jivas to shed their karma, that God continues to create after every deluge. That is why we call Him 'apara karuNAmputhE'. In order to make the jiva shed their karmic bond, He is untiringly working (BG) to create conditions suitable for shedding the karma. When such conditions could no longer be created He cancels the whole show by means of Deluge and starts afresh.This is going on and on. Regarding the doubt raised by others in this connection about why there is no fall in population because of aasthiks reaching VAikundam, instead giving any opinion on my behalf, let me try to visualise what our beloved Sriman NArayana who is in 'ari thuyil' in pAAr-kadal is likely to do on hearing this. It would be a 'smile' invariably!!! Have we really become eigible to reach Him soon? Have we grown in knowledge which is in the nature of bhakthi? Have we truly grown humble - true to what we say every now and then -dasan or dasaanu dasan? Are we able to see Him in every thing -in consonance with what Ramanuja says? Are we aware that this kind of questions (asked above)like 'are we this or are we that' are endless as His creations? What we know is only the path -even here we fight with each other about whose path is the best. How many of us truly live up to what Achrayas have said about how we have to live as Srivaishnava (or live up to what granthas like Mumukshuppadi require of us or as per what RAmanuja says as his 6 commandements or as per the 18 commandements that are found in the wall inside Soundara rajan sannidhi in Thiru nagai- to name a few)? This is not to provoke or find fault with us / others. What I mean by this is an introspection that is needed to be done almost everyday.... Because, miles to go before He chooses us.. and lots to do to make Him choose us.... regards, no offence please, because as a srivaishnava I don't want to hurt anyone. Perhaps this is adiyaL's condition and certainly not that of fellow devotees. pardon me for my inconsistancies and idiocracies. jayasree saranathan. ramanuja, Sheela Belur <bvsheela> wrote: > > Following is only a conjecture (in lighter vein): > > Probably souls which had other bodies such as insects etc are getting human bodies. Hence population (of humans!) is increasing!!! > > > Vijaya Raghavan <svrvan> wrote: > > > Yes swamin. This is an etrnal cyle. So the SUM TOTAL of ATMAN is same in the > universe. > > Now let us take the enlightened sould, who have done sranagathi in real, and are > up above as nitya suri's to the lord. > > These atman never coms backto earth. > > By this way the population of the earth has to decrease. But it is increasing. Why? > .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 shri: Shrimathi Jayashree saara.. Wonderful article. nice thinking in words. thanks for your moving mail. appaaDiYo !!! Great Thinking Adiyane T.K.Nambi daasan ramanuja, jasn sn <jayasartn> wrote: > > SRIMATHE RAMANUJAYA NAMAHA. > > The first 27 sutras of the 3rd chapter of Brahma > sutras which talk about the ascent and descent of the > soul, shed some light on cloning too. In his bhashya > to the 1st sutra, (3-1-1), Ramanuja speaks about > PanchAgni Vidhya which explains 5 oblations, in the > forms of shraddha, soma, rain, food and seed. They > are offered in 5 fires (i.e., objects imagined to be > fires for the sake of upasana) –namely heavens, > parjanya, earth, man and woman. The 5th oblation comes > to be designated as man. > > Explanation for this is found in subsequent verses > whereby it is said that the soul which descends to be > born comes through water (rain), earth, plant food , > man and finally woman. In the first 4 stages the > descent is quick and the soul is only connected to the > `oblations' / fire and does not undergo or experience > any karma. The process is irreversible and once the > soul has entered the chain, it is headed to be entered > into the womb. There is no question of not getting > discarded mid way. > > Verse 26 clearly states that till the soul remains > with in the man's body, it just stays only `connected' > to him and is not actually born. Only when it enters > the womb of the woman, the soul is born. There is no > mincing of words about this according to Brahma > sutras. > > In the case of cloning arising from human endeavour, > thanks to advancement in science, the 5th oblation > (mating) is missing. Verses 18 & 19 of the Brahma > sutra do speak about this probability. Verse 19 tells > about the cases of Drona, Drupadi and Dhrishtadhyumna > as without 5th oblation. They have been recorded in > Smritis. > > There is another type also who are not born through > the 5th oblation. > Of the three types of souls, the lowest ones, namely, > the evil-doers (the former two are the ones who go to > the abode of gods and the abode of fathers) `do not > ascend or descend from the world of moon'. (That is > why the heavens never get filled up) ` It follows > therefore that the 3rd place or evil-doers do not > depend on the 5th oblation for the origination of a > body. They are born irrespective of this oblation." > (verse 18) > > Verse 20 tells about other 3 types which are born > without 5th oblation. They are the ones born of eggs, > from living beings and those that germinate. > > But one qualitative difference between these types and > the cloning of today is that they have been part of > the scheme of Creation of the Lord. No where in > scriptures, are there references to empowering men (by > artificial tools) to skip the 5th oblation. Even in > the birth of Kauravas, the division of the embryo into > 100 containers happen after the 5th oblation is > completed. (Growth of embryo outside the womb is > something mankind might someday achieve, if we go by > this precedence but the same can not be said of > deliberate skipping of the 5th oblation). > > This (cloning) is also akin to man taking up creation > in his hand, which is a prohibited act as in the case > of Vishwamithra. There are 2 sides to this issue. One > is that since the soul descends through 5 oblations, > human cloning without 5th oblation is impossible. If > at all man succeeds in getting it done, it would be > that of the birth of evil-doers whose evil karma would > doom them to bad conditions of living. In other words > the creator-man would face further problems in keeping > up his `creation' than would achieve any positive > results. > > Another side of it is the very undesirability or > unsustainability of cloning. The sudden death of the > first animal clone (Dolly, the sheep) showing signs of > sudden aging reminds one of similar trends noticed in > the created world of Vishwamithra. > It is by hearsay (from elders) that whatever was > created by Vishwamithra fell short in some aspect from > the original world created by the Creator. For > instance there is a variety of curry leaves > (karivEppilai) known as `Vishwamithra karivEpilai, > which would grow yellow with aging. Whereas the > original karivEppilai does not grow yellow. It just > whithers. This might just be a figment of imagination > (I don't know for sure whether such a variety of > karivEppilai ever existed. Can any one clarify?) But > the point that must be noted is that our system of > knowledge does not foresee the creation and > sustainability of anything that is not part of the > scheme of Creation by Brahman. Human cloning is one > such thing. > > Regards, > Jayasree saranathan. > > > > > > > New and Improved Mail - Send 10MB messages! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 ramanuja, Vijaya Raghavan <svrvan> wrote: > > Mukundan swami, > > Totality what we take is 1 so summ total of all atman is constant. There should be > explanation for this. > > Hope some senior person helps me in this. > > Dasan/raghavan > > Mukundan <mukrupa> wrote: > > > SrI: > > Dear SrI.Vishnu, > > > Please refer to SrI.Mukundan Pattangi svAmi's last week mail quoting > a verse from mAmunigaL's upadESa ratna mAlai. Better to avoid self- > study!! Whether u sit in front of soemone or study his book, ultimately it is your mind which has to grasp. In case of mUrkhas, better not to study at all! Vishnu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 9, 2004 Report Share Posted October 9, 2004 Adiyen I wish to first Jayashree mami for the fine article. But, dont we have numerous instances in the Bhagawatham descrbing clonig in the rakshasas? How then is the Karna explained? Would any learned member care to throw some light on these. Dasan/raghavan bsundarrajansrivilliputtur <bsundarrajansrivilliputtur wrote: shri: Shrimathi Jayashree saara.. Wonderful article. nice thinking in words. thanks for your moving mail. appaaDiYo !!! Great Thinking Adiyane T.K.Nambi daasan ramanuja, jasn sn <jayasartn> wrote: > > SRIMATHE RAMANUJAYA NAMAHA. > > The first 27 sutras of the 3rd chapter of Brahma > sutras which talk about the ascent and descent of the > soul, shed some light on cloning too. In his bhashya > to the 1st sutra, (3-1-1), Ramanuja speaks about > PanchAgni Vidhya which explains 5 oblations, in the > forms of shraddha, soma, rain, food and seed. They > are offered in 5 fires (i.e., objects imagined to be > fires for the sake of upasana) –namely heavens, > parjanya, earth, man and woman. The 5th oblation comes > to be designated as man. > > Explanation for this is found in subsequent verses > whereby it is said that the soul which descends to be > born comes through water (rain), earth, plant food , > man and finally woman. In the first 4 stages the > descent is quick and the soul is only connected to the > `oblations' / fire and does not undergo or experience > any karma. The process is irreversible and once the > soul has entered the chain, it is headed to be entered > into the womb. There is no question of not getting > discarded mid way. > > Verse 26 clearly states that till the soul remains > with in the man's body, it just stays only `connected' > to him and is not actually born. Only when it enters > the womb of the woman, the soul is born. There is no > mincing of words about this according to Brahma > sutras. > > In the case of cloning arising from human endeavour, > thanks to advancement in science, the 5th oblation > (mating) is missing. Verses 18 & 19 of the Brahma > sutra do speak about this probability. Verse 19 tells > about the cases of Drona, Drupadi and Dhrishtadhyumna > as without 5th oblation. They have been recorded in > Smritis. > > There is another type also who are not born through > the 5th oblation. > Of the three types of souls, the lowest ones, namely, > the evil-doers (the former two are the ones who go to > the abode of gods and the abode of fathers) `do not > ascend or descend from the world of moon'. (That is > why the heavens never get filled up) ` It follows > therefore that the 3rd place or evil-doers do not > depend on the 5th oblation for the origination of a > body. They are born irrespective of this oblation." > (verse 18) > > Verse 20 tells about other 3 types which are born > without 5th oblation. They are the ones born of eggs, > from living beings and those that germinate. > > But one qualitative difference between these types and > the cloning of today is that they have been part of > the scheme of Creation of the Lord. No where in > scriptures, are there references to empowering men (by > artificial tools) to skip the 5th oblation. Even in > the birth of Kauravas, the division of the embryo into > 100 containers happen after the 5th oblation is > completed. (Growth of embryo outside the womb is > something mankind might someday achieve, if we go by > this precedence but the same can not be said of > deliberate skipping of the 5th oblation). > > This (cloning) is also akin to man taking up creation > in his hand, which is a prohibited act as in the case > of Vishwamithra. There are 2 sides to this issue. One > is that since the soul descends through 5 oblations, > human cloning without 5th oblation is impossible. If > at all man succeeds in getting it done, it would be > that of the birth of evil-doers whose evil karma would > doom them to bad conditions of living. In other words > the creator-man would face further problems in keeping > up his `creation' than would achieve any positive > results. > > Another side of it is the very undesirability or > unsustainability of cloning. The sudden death of the > first animal clone (Dolly, the sheep) showing signs of > sudden aging reminds one of similar trends noticed in > the created world of Vishwamithra. > It is by hearsay (from elders) that whatever was > created by Vishwamithra fell short in some aspect from > the original world created by the Creator. For > instance there is a variety of curry leaves > (karivEppilai) known as `Vishwamithra karivEpilai, > which would grow yellow with aging. Whereas the > original karivEppilai does not grow yellow. It just > whithers. This might just be a figment of imagination > (I don't know for sure whether such a variety of > karivEppilai ever existed. Can any one clarify?) But > the point that must be noted is that our system of > knowledge does not foresee the creation and > sustainability of anything that is not part of the > scheme of Creation by Brahman. Human cloning is one > such thing. > > Regards, > Jayasree saranathan. > > > > > > > New and Improved Mail - Send 10MB messages! > azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam ramanuja/ ramanuja Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 9, 2004 Report Share Posted October 9, 2004 Namaskaram to all learned members of this group. Adiyen has a request, I would certainly welcome members mails explaining things as they have to be. In Jayashree mami's earlier mail there was this reference to 3rd type of papa aatmas. Again Kali is the yuga for the fruits. All correct. But the basic position of what is the position of the veneered souls remains unanswered. Those who reach the lord donot come back. Our Acharyas say this. Then there should be some answer. I would request humbly the learned members of this group to shed some light on this. Dasan/raghavan jayasartn <jayasartn wrote: SRIMATHE RAMANUJAYA NAMAHA. Dear Sow Sheela, Your query requires a long mail to reply. Since I am apprehensive about writing long mails which I am so accustomed to, let me reply in crisp terms (though it means a mail long enough...) First of all, my previous mail on this topic tells about the 3rd category of evil-doers who are born and re-born because of which the heaven never gets filled up(Brahma sutras). It therefore follows that the earth gets filled up. Another angle to this is that this Yuga is the period of wars and strife. Jivas who have accumulated bad karma from anadhi kaalam get to experience the results only in this yuga. No other Yuga has been densely peopled as the present yuga. We hear of peculiar forms of strife and grief only in this yuga. Enormous is the number of jivas with bad karma and enormous and varied are the phalan they had to suffer as a result. Nothing goes unrecorded in the scheme of dharma. Every thought, word and action creat their respective reactions and they have to be experienced subsequently. That is what is happening now. Peace is conspicuous by its absence. It is for the sake of creating suitable conditions for the greiving jivas to shed their karma, that God continues to create after every deluge. That is why we call Him 'apara karuNAmputhE'. In order to make the jiva shed their karmic bond, He is untiringly working (BG) to create conditions suitable for shedding the karma. When such conditions could no longer be created He cancels the whole show by means of Deluge and starts afresh.This is going on and on. Regarding the doubt raised by others in this connection about why there is no fall in population because of aasthiks reaching VAikundam, instead giving any opinion on my behalf, let me try to visualise what our beloved Sriman NArayana who is in 'ari thuyil' in pAAr-kadal is likely to do on hearing this. It would be a 'smile' invariably!!! Have we really become eigible to reach Him soon? Have we grown in knowledge which is in the nature of bhakthi? Have we truly grown humble - true to what we say every now and then -dasan or dasaanu dasan? Are we able to see Him in every thing -in consonance with what Ramanuja says? Are we aware that this kind of questions (asked above)like 'are we this or are we that' are endless as His creations? What we know is only the path -even here we fight with each other about whose path is the best. How many of us truly live up to what Achrayas have said about how we have to live as Srivaishnava (or live up to what granthas like Mumukshuppadi require of us or as per what RAmanuja says as his 6 commandements or as per the 18 commandements that are found in the wall inside Soundara rajan sannidhi in Thiru nagai- to name a few)? This is not to provoke or find fault with us / others. What I mean by this is an introspection that is needed to be done almost everyday.... Because, miles to go before He chooses us.. and lots to do to make Him choose us.... regards, no offence please, because as a srivaishnava I don't want to hurt anyone. Perhaps this is adiyaL's condition and certainly not that of fellow devotees. pardon me for my inconsistancies and idiocracies. jayasree saranathan. ramanuja, Sheela Belur <bvsheela> wrote: > > Following is only a conjecture (in lighter vein): > > Probably souls which had other bodies such as insects etc are getting human bodies. Hence population (of humans!) is increasing!!! > > > Vijaya Raghavan <svrvan> wrote: > > > Yes swamin. This is an etrnal cyle. So the SUM TOTAL of ATMAN is same in the > universe. > > Now let us take the enlightened sould, who have done sranagathi in real, and are > up above as nitya suri's to the lord. > > These atman never coms backto earth. > > By this way the population of the earth has to decrease. But it is increasing. Why? > .. azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam ramanuja/ ramanuja vote. - Register online to vote today! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2004 Report Share Posted October 12, 2004 Sri: Srimathe Ramanujaya nama: Dear Devotees, Humble praNAms to all. This is just my feelings. I keep reading this upadEsa rathnamAlai's verse quite often. First of all, I don't think there is anything called "self-study". If a jIvAtmA thinks(that's also His grace)it is learning on "IT'S OWN", then it's perumAL's headache to correct it. WHenever we read a book,we are reading along with the author,and not alone. The only question is "is my frequency matches the author's mental frequency". Very rarely it matches and mathematically speaking there is 50-50 chance of misinterpreting the author. In such cases, we are supposed to cross check(not everybody does this,this quest for knowledge also needs to be supplied by Him ONLY) with those who have better knowledge/understanding of the subject concerned. In my own personal experience, when I was new in this forum, Sri Parthasarathy Iyengar used to quote SVB a lot. I have heard about SVB but I never had a peep into it(though i belong to that sampradAyam). The entire credit goes to Sri Parthasarathy for inculcating that interest in me wrt SVB which in turn provoked me to tell my father to send the book immediately. My father put one note for me saying "whether you do sharaNAgati to perumAL or not, you put one BIG sharaNAgati to srI piLLai lOkAcAryAr;if not,you're doomed forever!". Whenever some posts confuse me wrt SVB, I feel it is srI piLLai lOkAcAryAr who provokes me to send mails to Sri Parthasarathy Iyengar or Sri Vanamamalai Padmanabhan to check my understanding. PerumAL will put right devotees in front of the jIvAtmAs that He wants to remedy. JIvAtmA need not worry! We always have a teacher(starting from mother from whom we learn the language,BTW there is only mother tongue not father tongue)at each and every space-time. Whether we realize it or not is a different issue. I don't belong to myself,so where is the question of "self-study". As per swami nampiLLai's words of one of the mark of a vaishNava "both the Lord and the AcAryA reside in a vaishNava who has unbounded love and faith in a bhAgavata". So, will not that AcAryA mAmunigaL see to it that the jIvAtmA is going in the right direction? AzhvAr emperumAnAr jIyar thiruvadigaLE sharaNam dAsAnu dAsI NC Nappinnai > > Mukundan <mukrupa> wrote: > > > > > > SrI: > > > > Dear SrI.Vishnu, > > > > > > > Please refer to SrI.Mukundan Pattangi svAmi's last week mail > quoting > > a verse from mAmunigaL's upadESa ratna mAlai. Better to avoid self- > > study!! > > Whether u sit in front of soemone or study his book, ultimately it is > your mind which has to grasp. In case of mUrkhas, better not to study > at all! > > Vishnu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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