Guest guest Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 Sri: Srimathe Ramanujaya nama: ramanuja, "Lakshmi Narasimhan" <nrusimhann> wrote: > > > Well, > We have independence(swa). Using that independence(swa), if we give > up that very independence then that is pAratantryam(dependencde). > adiyen, > rAmAnuja dAsan Dear Sriman Lakshmi Narasimhan We think(in GROSS ignorance)that we have independence. You're seeing things from surface aspect but when I see at the root level it is pathetic. The jIvAtmA doesn't have any independence. Only when the jIvAtma thinks it has independence/freewill etc, it finds faults in others(b'coz it questions how come the other person doesn't think/act the way he/she does). When this ignorance is gone, a jIvAtma will find good in everybody. Even if another person behaves badly, or things go wrong, it will have the mindset to think that everything is His grace. As one devotee sent me a personal mail, sEshatvam is our birth right and pAratantryam is the understanding of our relation(state of mind)that we depend on Him,Him,Him alone! If I use that independence that you mentioned to give up the same,I'm exercising "self-effort". So, are you an advocate of sahEtukam? Let us assume that I use that independence for your satisfaction! You also have a mind and so do I. So I will expect and question how come you act/respond differently to the same scenario/situation than I do. This creates lot of negative traits! This will be a 100% block for any jIvAtmA to do bhAgavata kaimkaryam for sure! SEshatvam(or dAsatvam) will be out of viscinity of the jIvAtma. You go to any genius(irrespective of the belief in God) dude. He will only tell that he is doing research. He knows very well (in his heart and mind) that he is not searching anything new. Everything is already there. BTW, Socrates is considered as wise man b'coz he uttered that he knows nothing instead of saying he knows everything! All these geniuses had academic gurus(some role models) but they didn't have a spiritual guru/AcAryA. That's why they tortured themselves wrt the existence/non-existence of God. An authentic guru(to transfer knowledge) is necessary in each and every field of life including academics. Academics is a part of life and not the other way round. All the views expressed here also belong to someoneelse and hence not original! AzhvAr emperumAnAr jIyar thiruvadigaLE sharaNam dAsAnu dAsI NC Nappinnai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 Swamin, We need not worry, what the lesser developed souls will do. We cannot be thinking what will happen if they will take advantage of this arguement. See it is very clear that Paramatma is everything. We are born as willed by him. We donot have the choice of parents. It is only the subtle soul that controls this entire drama called life. By sadana the jivatma, gets the knowledge. Now people may ask, I want to be Ramanuja why am i not able to be? Why is it that I go behind women and wine though I want to lead a pious life? Now where is SWATANTRYAM? The swatantryam of the Jiva is also able to act only with the will of GOD and paratantryam. Hope this clarifies. Dasan/raghavan vtca <vtca wrote: Dear Sriman Vishnu, I get the feeling that you are driving toward the idea that shedding free will or accepting sEshatvam is also His act and not ours. In which case, here's my question: if a soul does not accept its sEshatva nature or claims it is a swatantra (and most of us qualify for this) - is that act one of free will of the jIvAtma or not? I am sure you see my concern here. Everyone will then justify every act of their's as that of the paramAtma's. adiyEn madhurakavi dAsan ramanuja, "Vishnu" <vsmvishnu> wrote: > Now I will ask you one question. The free will or swAtantyram is shed > out of our free will or not? > > Dasan > Vishnu > azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam ramanuja/ ramanuja Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2004 Report Share Posted October 21, 2004 Sri: Srimathe Ramanujaya nama" Dear TCA Venkatesan, > Azhvars do attribute all their good deeds to the > Lord. But do they attribute their bad deeds to the > Lord too? jIvAtmA blames every other person except itself till it realizes. When the realization happens it doesn't blame anyone except itself and probably the Lord(unable to bear its separation from the Lord). Hmmm.....Hard to put this topic in writings! > Let me pose you a question. Why does Azhvar say > iruththinEn in "en uNarvinuLLE iruththinEn adhuvum > avanadhu innaruLE" instead of "en uNarvinuLLe > vandhu irundhAn"? This is the difference between cit(has knowledge) and acit(has no knowledge). I can't or rather don't want to translate what Velukkudi Krishnan swami says in class 8 as I fear I might introduce more confusion. But I guess(!) I got swami's point. He explains this through what bharata tells vasishta. It is b'coz of that knowledge we realize that our basic nature is sEshatvam and not independence! He explains lot of things and I enjoyed it to the core! But I can't translate those. BTW, instead of saying "en uNarvinuLLE vandhu irundhAn", it is apt to say "en uNarvinuLLE irukkinRAn" that is Lord is in everybody(default). But do we take possession of Him? May be AzhvAr wrote in that aspect(I donno! Need to ask NDP experts) and hence made the statement "en uNarvinuLLE iruththinEn,adhuvum avanadhu innaruLE". > Why does Thirumangai Azhvar say "vAdinEn" instead of "vAttinAy"? Hahaha...Good sense of humor. I am zero in NDP. So you're asking a wrong person. But then Kaliyan sang "vAdinEn" after seeing/enjoying that Lord nicely! I don't know how AzhvAr expressed his feelings before he saw perumAL. AzhvAr emperumAnAr jIyar thiruvadigaLE sharaNam dAsAnu dAsI NC Nappinnai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 Sri: Dear Smt Sumithra, adiyEn's praNAms. The question here is: "if the kid refuses", is that refusal an act of the Lord too? If so, how is the kid responsible for his faulty behaviour? This is what is being implied by many posts in this group. Hence my question. Elsewhere, Nappinnai writes: "Even if another person behaves badly, or things go wrong, it will have the mindset to think that everything is His grace." This is easy to digest when it is directed toward one's self. But if we witness an act of misbehaviour by a person toward the Lord, or worse, toward a bhAgavata, do we say that it is by His grace too? I think there are lots of questions here on what exactly is nirhetukam and whether the jIva owns any act or is it all the Lord's? adiyEn is reading an article by mahAvidwAn PBA Swami on the concept of nirhetukam. I will try to translate it as best as I can and post it here soon. adiyEn madhurakavi dAsan > Like a mother holding the > hands of a kid and writing a letter on the paper and then > praising the kid for writing correctly emperuman does > everything and grants us moksha. But if the kid refuses > to write at all then the mother either scolds, advices or > sometimes even beats to make the kid write. That is what > emperuman also does. The kid has no free will it is > governed by the mother similar is the case of all > jeevatmas who are none other than the kids of the divine > supreme lord. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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