Parathvam of Sriman Narayana Vs. Krishna

[Guest guest]

Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha

Srimathe Vedhantha Desikaya Namaha

Srimath VaraVara Munaye Namaha

 

Respected Sri Vaishnava Baghavathas

 

Adiyen Ramanuja Dasan Sampath Kumar. This is my first question in this

scholarly forum.

 

In our SriVaishnava Sidhantham it is established that Sriman Narayanan

residing in Vaikunta Lokam is parathvam and Krishna is avatharam

(Vibhavam) of Sriman Narayanan and Krishna is an expansion of Sriman

Narayanan. However, there are other schools of Vaishnavism (especially

Gaudia Vaishnavism) which staunchly advocate that Krishna is the

parathvam and Narayanan is a subform of Krishna. Even though both

these schools accept Sriman Narayanan and Krishna, why this

fundamental difference arise and which is correct?

 

Kindly accept adiyen's appologies if my question is inappropriate.

 

Adiyen

 

Ramanuja Dasan

 

Sampath Kumar...

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna.

 

Please accept my humble obeisances.

 

Many thanks to Srimati Janaki and Sri Sampatkumar for

their mail.

 

No question is offensive provided that it is asked

with humility and respect for everyone concerned.

 

Before sharing my thoughts on this issue, let me first

thank all the Sri Vaishnavas here for their wonderful

contributions and the high standards of Vaishnava

etiquette that they have displayed. I know some of the

devotees personally like Sri Madhavakkannan and

greatly appreciate his association and translation

work which has given me much solace and bliss. I am a

member of many Vaishnava lists and not many display

the culture and mutual respect present on this list.

This is my humble and honest observation and

appreciation.

 

The issue of Narayana vs Krishna as the primeval lord

is primarily related to the manner in which each

Vaishnava tradition formulates its approach to

understanding the entire corpus of Vedic literatures.

It is also related to how each sampradaya presents the

ultimate achievement of the jiva. The Gaudiya

Vaishnava viewpoint is one of rasa in which Sri

Krishna is seen as akhila-rasamrta-murti, i.e. He

manifests in full all the rasas to be exchanged

between ishvara and jiva. The Gaudiya approach is one

of seeing the Lord as rasa vigraha. Hence, the primacy

of form is seen in terms of rasa tattva. However, even

Srila Krishna Kaviraja Goswami, after presenting the

Gaudiya viewpoint on this matter, states that seeing

Narayana as the primeval lord and Sri Krishna as

vibhava is also possible by virtue of the unlimited

capacity of the Lord.

 

The nature of tarka, nyaya shastra and pramana is

sometimes dumbfounding because the multiplicity of

meanings, both external and internal, can lead to

multiple interpretations. What one sampradaya sees as

an amazing internal meaning is taken by another as

being too far-fetched and overstretched by way of

personal biasness and poetic imagination. One strand

of nyaya can support a certain position while another

supports a seemingly opposite view. Srila Jiva Goswami

in his Krishna Sandarbha gives many points to support

Sri Krishna's primacy and Narayana's position as the

former's vilasa expansions. However, the Sri

Vaishnavas also have their arguments to counter. But

amidst all this, we have to understand that spiritual

reality is very difficult to decipher from a purely

logical viewpoint. Divine revelation itself can make

multiple impressions on the minds of different

liberated personalities.

 

On a personal note, I would tend NOT to approach this

issue on the basis of correctness and error for what

is food to one may be poison to another. When 2 giants

argue, who am I as a mouse to decide who is right and

who is wrong ? I must either be another giant or the

Lord who has revealed Himself to these giants to make

decisions. I'd rather humbly take my position as a

mouse and give every respect to the giants, understand

their viewpoints and go on serving the Lord in my

affiliated sampradaya.

 

Sri Mudumby Narasimhachary, former head of the

Department of Vaishnavism at the University of Madras

has written a wonderful article for the ISKCON

Communications Journal in which he addresses these

issues, both in connection with the kalai differences

in Sri Vaishnavism as well as those amongst the

various Vaishnavas sampradayas. His attitude and

approach if adopted by us, will strengthen our

solidarity as lovers of Narayana and Krishna. His

article may be found at

http://www.iskcon.com/icj/8_2/narasim.html

 

Personally, I am an aspiring Gaudiya Vaishnava at the

lotus feet of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta

Swami Prabhupada. It is only through His Divine

Grace's books and presentations that I have come to

know of the glories of Sripad Ramanujacharya. His

Divine Grace although presenting the Gaudiya Vaishnava

viewpoint on these issues in his works, has not

focused on knit-picking such theological differences

with a view to faultfinding other sampradayas. Rather,

he has presented devotional service to Krishna/Vishnu

in a general sense with due respect to all the

Vaishnava Acharyas. In fact, during his visit to

London, one devotee already initiated into the Sri

Vaishnava line requested him for re-initiation into

the Gaudiya line. Srila Prabhupada told him that this

was not necessary since he already had an acharya in a

bona fide Vaishnava line and doing so would be

disrespectful. He told him to merely take to Krishna's

names and serve Lord Chaitanya's mission. Likewise,

Sripada Baladeva Vidyabhushana gave the same response

to the Ramanandis who had wanted to take initiation

from him at Galta.

 

My basic point is that issues related to in-depth

theological discernment should be left to the

individual, but appropriate etiquette should not be

marred by mere adherence to one's own sense of

correctness based purely on logic for as indicated

before, logic is in itself multi-faceted.

 

I have known many devotees from other sampradayas

besides my own. Some of them are downright offensive

while others are merely tolerant. Yet others, are

truly and positively appreciative. In all lines, we

are going to meet people of all of these tendencies.

Whatever issue we may take on this issue, we should

remember that the Vedas are kalpataru - desire tree

and they fulfil many desires for many persons.

 

Hare Krishna.

 

 

your servant,

r. jai simman,

jakarta, indonesia .

 

 

--- ramanuja wrote:

 

> There are 4 messages in this issue.

>

> Topics in this digest:

>

> 1. Re: draupadi saraNAgathi - from srI

> vanamAmalai padmanabhan

> "Lakshmi Narasimhan"

> <nrusimhann

> 2. Hurrah! 100 Members

> "sriramdasty7"

> <sriramdasty7

> 3. Parathvam of Sriman Narayana Vs. Krishna

> "Janaki & Sampath Kumar"

> <janasampath

> 4. Sri Srinivaasa Vaibhavam- BhoothatthAzhwAr

> anubhavam of ThiruvEnkatam- 7- [46 th verse]

> Madhavakkannan V

> <srivaishnavan

>

>

>

______________________

>

______________________

>

> Message: 1

> Tue, 10 May 2005 06:10:07 -0000

> "Lakshmi Narasimhan" <nrusimhann

> Re: draupadi saraNAgathi - from srI

> vanamAmalai padmanabhan

>

> "drowpathikku AbhaththilE pudavai surandhadhu

> thirunAmamirE"

> Draupadi did not perform saranAgathi though she used

> the

> word "raksha mAm sharanAgatam". So, it was the

> Govinda nAmam that

> helped her and not her saranAgathi. This is from

> swAmi

> pillailokachAriar's choornikai(vachanabhooshanam?).

>

> Link:

>

http://www.ibiblio.org/sripedia/oppiliappan/archives/jan05/msg00010.h

> tml

>

> adiyEn,

> dAsan

> ramanuja, Varadhan T A

> <tavaradhan>

> wrote:

> > srImathE rAmAnujAya namah

> >

> > dear devotees,

> > srI padmanabhan svAmi requested me to forward a

> series of mails on

> draupadi saraNagathi. Attached is part 1.

> >

> > adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan,

> > varadhan

> >

> >

> >

> > SRIMATHE RAMANUJAYA NAMAHA.

> >

> > Dear Smt Subha Narayanan,

> >

> > You have raised some pertinent questions, the

> answers for which

> can be many depending upon one's understanding of

> scriptures. Let me

> attempt one based on how I understand them. I

> planned to write my

> views in 2 parts, one on how Draupadi was nowhere

> near thought of

> vengeance and how the concept of 'sharanagathi' is

> to be understood

> and interpreted. Meantime I read sri Sudharshan

> swami's mail to you,

> and am sending the first part now and deferring the

> 2nd part to know

> what he is going to say.

> >

> > First of all, the original text does not speak

> about any display

> of anger, outrage or revenge by Draupadi. She

> presents herself as

> piteous, sufficiently humiliated and yet having full

> faith in the

> sense of morality of Yudhishtra. On a couple of

> occasions, it was

> Bhima who shows anger against his eldest brother and

> takes the

> kauravas to task, but never once does Draupadi

> display her anger

> against the perpetrators of crime. Such descriptions

> must have been

> added in later day versions. I request you to go to

>

http://www.ibiblio.org/sripedia/ebooks/mb/m02/m02066.htm

>

> >

> > to read the original version. (My thanks to Sri

> Krishnaswamy swami

> who sent me this link.)

> >

> > Let me highlight two instances for immediate

> reference for you.

> When the Pandavas were leaving for the forest, after

> having been

> made to play dice once again, after the humiliation

> of Panchali was

> over, it was the cunning words of Dussasana that

> provoked Bhima to

> make the terrible vow. (earlier too, after the

> humiliation to

> draupadi was done, Bhima pledges to vanquish the

> perpetrator) He

> made vows on the behalf of others too, which were

> eventually

> seconded by other brothers themselves. But Panchali

> was quiet. This

> is how the scene unfolds:-

> > Dussasana says, "And O Yajnaseni, what joy will be

> thine upon

> beholding in the woods these thy husbands dressed in

> skins and

> thread-bare rags, deprived of their wealth and

> possessions. Elect

> thou a husband, whomsoever thou likest, from among

> all these present

> here. These Kurus assembled here, are all forbearing

> and self-

> controlled, and possessed of great wealth. Elect

> thou one amongst

> these as thy lord, so that these great calamity may

> not drag thee to

> wretchedness. 'The sons of Pandu now are even like

> grains of sesame

> without the kernel, or like show-animals encased in

> skins, or like

> grains of rice without the kernel. Why shouldst thou

> then longer

> wait upon the fallen sons of Pandu? Vain is the

> labour used upon

> pressing the sesame grain devoid of the kernel!'

> >

> > "Thus did Dussasana, the son of Dhritarashtra,

> utter in the

> hearing of the Pandavas, harsh words of the most

> cruel import. And

> hearing them, the unforbearing Bhima, in wrath

> suddenly approaching

> that prince like a Himalayan lion upon a jackal,

> loudly and

> chastisingly rebuked him in these

> words,--Wicked-minded villain,

> ravest thou so in words that are uttered alone by

> the sinful?

> Boastest thou thus in the midst of the kings,

> advanced as thou art

> by the skill of the king of Gandhara. As thou

> piercest our hearts

> hear with these thy arrowy words, so shall I pierce

> thy heart in

> battle, recalling all this to thy mind. And they

> also who from anger

> or covetousness are walking behind thee as thy

> protectors,--them

> also shall I send to the abode of Yama with their

> descendants and

> relatives."

> >

> > Vaisampayana continued,--Unto Bhima dressed in

> deer-skins and

> uttering these words of wrath without doing any

> thing, for he could

> not deviate from the path of virtue, Dussasana

> abandoning all sense

> of shame, dancing around the Kurus, loudly said, 'O

> cow! O cow!'

> >

> > Bhima at this once more said,--Wretch darest thou,

> O Dussasana,

> use harsh words as these? Whom doth it behove to

> boast, thus having

> won wealth by foul means? I tell thee that if

> Vrikodara, the son of

> Pritha, drinketh not thy life-blood, piercing open

> thy breast in

> battle, let him not

> >

> > p. 148

> >

> > attain to regions of blessedness, I tell thee

> truly that by

> slaying the sons of Dhritarashtra in battle, before

> the very eyes of

> all the warriors, I shall pacify this wrath of mine

> soon enough.'"

> >

> > Vaisampayana continued,--"And as the Pandavas were

> going away from

> the assembly, the wicked king Duryodhana from excess

> of joy mimiced

>

=== message truncated ===

 

 

 

 

 

 

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