Guest guest Posted September 21, 2005 Report Share Posted September 21, 2005 SRIMATHE RAMANUJAYA NAMAHA. We often come across in prabhandham, words such as ViNNavar, Vanavar and Amarar used interchangeably. Imayavar and ViNNulAr are other terms used less often. But we can see a qualifying reference or context-orientedness at places where these terms are used, enabling us to deduce what the aazhwar intends to convey. It is like how the same name brahma is used to denote both the all pervading Brahman and the four-faced brahma, with some prefix or contextual reference as in the sloka ‘gurur brahma, gurur Vishnu:…saakshaath para-brahma..’ We can also see the same trend in Prabhandam verses. The aazhwar makes some qualifying remarks regarding whether he refers to devas or nithya sooris, in that particular context. The only verse(s) which I am able to recollect where all these terms are used to denote them to be in Vaikuntham is in “Soozh visumbhu” 10. The vanavar, iamayavar, vinnavar and munivar wait at the threshold of Vaikuntahm to receive the aazhwar. In other places, contextual reference makes them different from nithya sooris. First of all a clear distinction is made about who are qualified to be amarar or nithya sooris. As per Thiruvoimozhi 10-5-8,9&10, amarar are those who are not tainted by ‘vinaigaL’. The aazhwar refers to nithya sooris, when he says ‘amara-th-thozhuvaarkku amaraa vinaigalE’ In contrast, the Vinnavar are those who are in ViNNulagam and at many places in Prabhandam, Vinnavar are referred to in the context of or in contrast to MaNnavar, the earthly beings. This ViNNulagam is part of the 3 world, Mooulagam. This mooulagam is part of created universe which has a beginning and an end within the total life span of 100 years of the four-faced Brahma deva. Therefore the ViNnavar can not be amarar of amaraa vinaigaL who accompany the Lord at Vaikuntham. In 10-2-6, a direct contrast is being made between amarar (nithya sooris) and Vanavar (devas of lokas like Indra loka). By telling ‘amararai-th-thirigindrar’ we find the amarar as Liberated souls like sage Bhrugu whose condition as expressed in 3rd chapter of Taittriyan Upanishad is similar to ‘thiriyum amarar’ or ‘wandering Liberated soul’ In the next line aazhwar talks about the ‘viNNOr’ (paNi seivar ViNNOr), thereby differentiating them from amarar. ViNNOr have some specific duties to perform whereas nithya sooris have no such designated duties, making them liberal literally. This duty-binding nature is what makes them subject to ups and downs and be endowed with faculties to carry out the duties. That is how they come to be aggrieved when asuras trouble them. In Thiruvoimozhi 7-8-6, it is said ‘vaanavar tham thuyar theera..’ bhagavan came down to earth to humble Bali. Similar instances can be quoted from Prabhandam to show that Vinnavar or vanavar or ViNNulAr do undergo troubles, to wipe out which Bhagavan takes some steps. Thus the ViNNulAr refers to vaanavar coming within the framework of created worlds. Another source that can be cited is the Acharya Hrudhayam-description of Thiruvoimozhi (4th prakaraN). The 7th patthu in which this verse appears is generally about aazhwar’s ‘aakhrOsham’ as to why Bhagavan has given these indriyas that give trouble to him (jivas) Even ViNNulAr have not escaped the spell of the indriyas is what is made out in the first 10 of 7th patthu. Connecting this to BG, the individual soul upon attaining Brahman , gets the ‘annadhithvaath, nirgunathvaath’ nature (13-31) (or vice versa or this state happening simulatneous) making it to have no need to do work (na karOthi) . The sequence of jiva’s journey in attaining Brahmanhood from verses 13-21 to 32 in BG is of souls who enjoy Bhagavan. They are not those who suffer anything on any account, nor are they endowed with gunas and senses of prakruthi –born. They have transcended the gunas – they are nir-gunaath. This means that if some entity is described to be suffering from or endowed with prakruthi-born attribute, then that entity can not be said to have attained brahmanhood, which in other words mean not having got a place in Vaikuntham. Therefore it can be conclusively said that ViNNulAr are not nithya sooris. They are VaanOr or viNNAvar of created universe. I stand to be corrected. Pranams. Jayasree saranathan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2005 Report Share Posted September 21, 2005 Your knowledge is amazing indeed, (pls do not take in the wrong way,) it is indeed heartening to see knowledgable sthrees like yourself in our sampradayam. May I ask about your background? How did you get to accumulate knowlege? And who is your AchAryan?? Regarding this mail, I shall go through it in depth till it strikes by mandha buddhi. Dasan, Kidambi Soundararajan.saranathan <jayasree_saranathan (AT) sancharnet (DOT) in> wrote: SRIMATHE RAMANUJAYA NAMAHA. We often come across in prabhandham, words such as ViNNavar, Vanavar and Amarar used interchangeably. Imayavar and ViNNulAr are other terms used less often. But we can see a qualifying reference or context-orientedness at places where these terms are used, enabling us to deduce what the aazhwar intends to convey. It is like how the same name brahma is used to denote both the all pervading Brahman and the four-faced brahma, with some prefix or contextual reference as in the sloka ‘gurur brahma, gurur Vishnu:…saakshaath para-brahma..’ We can also see the same trend in Prabhandam verses. The aazhwar makes some qualifying remarks regarding whether he refers to devas or nithya sooris, in that particular context. The only verse(s) which I am able to recollect where all these terms are used to denote them to be in Vaikuntham is in “Soozh visumbhu” 10. The vanavar, iamayavar, vinnavar and munivar wait at the threshold of Vaikuntahm to receive the aazhwar. In other places, contextual reference makes them different from nithya sooris. First of all a clear distinction is made about who are qualified to be amarar or nithya sooris. As per Thiruvoimozhi 10-5-8,9&10, amarar are those who are not tainted by ‘vinaigaL’. The aazhwar refers to nithya sooris, when he says ‘amara-th-thozhuvaarkku amaraa vinaigalE’ In contrast, the Vinnavar are those who are in ViNNulagam and at many places in Prabhandam, Vinnavar are referred to in the context of or in contrast to MaNnavar, the earthly beings. This ViNNulagam is part of the 3 world, Mooulagam. This mooulagam is part of created universe which has a beginning and an end within the total life span of 100 years of the four-faced Brahma deva. Therefore the ViNnavar can not be amarar of amaraa vinaigaL who accompany the Lord at Vaikuntham. In 10-2-6, a direct contrast is being made between amarar (nithya sooris) and Vanavar (devas of lokas like Indra loka). By telling ‘amararai-th-thirigindrar’ we find the amarar as Liberated souls like sage Bhrugu whose condition as expressed in 3rd chapter of Taittriyan Upanishad is similar to ‘thiriyum amarar’ or ‘wandering Liberated soul’ In the next line aazhwar talks about the ‘viNNOr’ (paNi seivar ViNNOr), thereby differentiating them from amarar. ViNNOr have some specific duties to perform whereas nithya sooris have no such designated duties, making them liberal literally. This duty-binding nature is what makes them subject to ups and downs and be endowed with faculties to carry out the duties. That is how they come to be aggrieved when asuras trouble them. In Thiruvoimozhi 7-8-6, it is said ‘vaanavar tham thuyar theera..’ bhagavan came down to earth to humble Bali. Similar instances can be quoted from Prabhandam to show that Vinnavar or vanavar or ViNNulAr do undergo troubles, to wipe out which Bhagavan takes some steps. Thus the ViNNulAr refers to vaanavar coming within the framework of created worlds. Another source that can be cited is the Acharya Hrudhayam-description of Thiruvoimozhi (4th prakaraN). The 7th patthu in which this verse appears is generally about aazhwar’s ‘aakhrOsham’ as to why Bhagavan has given these indriyas that give trouble to him (jivas) Even ViNNulAr have not escaped the spell of the indriyas is what is made out in the first 10 of 7th patthu. Connecting this to BG, the individual soul upon attaining Brahman , gets the ‘annadhithvaath, nirgunathvaath’ nature (13-31) (or vice versa or this state happening simulatneous) making it to have no need to do work (na karOthi) . The sequence of jiva’s journey in attaining Brahmanhood from verses 13-21 to 32 in BG is of souls who enjoy Bhagavan. They are not those who suffer anything on any account, nor are they endowed with gunas and senses of prakruthi –born. They have transcended the gunas – they are nir-gunaath. This means that if some entity is described to be suffering from or endowed with prakruthi-born attribute, then that entity can not be said to have attained brahmanhood, which in other words mean not having got a place in Vaikuntham. Therefore it can be conclusively said that ViNNulAr are not nithya sooris. They are VaanOr or viNNAvar of created universe. I stand to be corrected. Pranams. Jayasree saranathan for Good Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2005 Report Share Posted September 22, 2005 vimalkumar ranganathan <panardasan > wrote: Dear Smt. Saranathan, Your knowledge is amazing indeed, (pls do not take in the wrong way,) it is indeed heartening to see knowledgable sthrees like yourself in our sampradayam. May I ask about your background? How did you get to accumulate knowlege? And who is your AchAryan?? Regarding this mail, I shall go through it in depth till it strikes by mandha buddhi. Dasan, Kidambi Soundararajan.saranathan <jayasree_saranathan (AT) sancharnet (DOT) in> wrote: SRIMATHE RAMANUJAYA NAMAHA. We often come across in prabhandham, words such as ViNNavar, Vanavar and Amarar used interchangeably. Imayavar and ViNNulAr are other terms used less often. But we can see a qualifying reference or context-orientedness at places where these terms are used, enabling us to deduce what the aazhwar intends to convey. It is like how the same name brahma is used to denote both the all pervading Brahman and the four-faced brahma, with some prefix or contextual reference as in the sloka ‘gurur brahma, gurur Vishnu:…saakshaath para-brahma..’ We can also see the same trend in Prabhandam verses. The aazhwar makes some qualifying remarks regarding whether he refers to devas or nithya sooris, in that particular context. The only verse(s) which I am able to recollect where all these terms are used to denote them to be in Vaikuntham is in “Soozh visumbhu” 10. The vanavar, iamayavar, vinnavar and munivar wait at the threshold of Vaikuntahm to receive the aazhwar. In other places, contextual reference makes them different from nithya sooris. First of all a clear distinction is made about who are qualified to be amarar or nithya sooris. As per Thiruvoimozhi 10-5-8,9&10, amarar are those who are not tainted by ‘vinaigaL’. The aazhwar refers to nithya sooris, when he says ‘amara-th-thozhuvaarkku amaraa vinaigalE’ In contrast, the Vinnavar are those who are in ViNNulagam and at many places in Prabhandam, Vinnavar are referred to in the context of or in contrast to MaNnavar, the earthly beings. This ViNNulagam is part of the 3 world, Mooulagam. This mooulagam is part of created universe which has a beginning and an end within the total life span of 100 years of the four-faced Brahma deva. Therefore the ViNnavar can not be amarar of amaraa vinaigaL who accompany the Lord at Vaikuntham. In 10-2-6, a direct contrast is being made between amarar (nithya sooris) and Vanavar (devas of lokas like Indra loka). By telling ‘amararai-th-thirigindrar’ we find the amarar as Liberated souls like sage Bhrugu whose condition as expressed in 3rd chapter of Taittriyan Upanishad is similar to ‘thiriyum amarar’ or ‘wandering Liberated soul’ In the next line aazhwar talks about the ‘viNNOr’ (paNi seivar ViNNOr), thereby differentiating them from amarar. ViNNOr have some specific duties to perform whereas nithya sooris have no such designated duties, making them liberal literally. This duty-binding nature is what makes them subject to ups and downs and be endowed with faculties to carry out the duties. That is how they come to be aggrieved when asuras trouble them. In Thiruvoimozhi 7-8-6, it is said ‘vaanavar tham thuyar theera..’ bhagavan came down to earth to humble Bali. Similar instances can be quoted from Prabhandam to show that Vinnavar or vanavar or ViNNulAr do undergo troubles, to wipe out which Bhagavan takes some steps. Thus the ViNNulAr refers to vaanavar coming within the framework of created worlds. Another source that can be cited is the Acharya Hrudhayam-description of Thiruvoimozhi (4th prakaraN). The 7th patthu in which this verse appears is generally about aazhwar’s ‘aakhrOsham’ as to why Bhagavan has given these indriyas that give trouble to him (jivas) Even ViNNulAr have not escaped the spell of the indriyas is what is made out in the first 10 of 7th patthu. Connecting this to BG, the individual soul upon attaining Brahman , gets the ‘annadhithvaath, nirgunathvaath’ nature (13-31) (or vice versa or this state happening simulatneous) making it to have no need to do work (na karOthi) . The sequence of jiva’s journey in attaining Brahmanhood from verses 13-21 to 32 in BG is of souls who enjoy Bhagavan. They are not those who suffer anything on any account, nor are they endowed with gunas and senses of prakruthi –born. They have transcended the gunas – they are nir-gunaath. This means that if some entity is described to be suffering from or endowed with prakruthi-born attribute, then that entity can not be said to have attained brahmanhood, which in other words mean not having got a place in Vaikuntham. Therefore it can be conclusively said that ViNNulAr are not nithya sooris. They are VaanOr or viNNAvar of created universe. I stand to be corrected. Pranams. Jayasree saranathan for GoodClick here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. for Good Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2005 Report Share Posted October 4, 2005 Sri: Srimathe Ramanujaya Nama: Dear devotees, The following is entirely adiyEn's interpretation and is not based on any acharyas vyakhyanams or position. So kindly forgive my transgression if you choose to read forward. The question arose out of the pasuram Thiruvaymozhi 7.1.6 and then moved on to other areas (of who nithya sUris are and their differences with other devas etc). adiyEn will fall back to the original question. The pasuram in question is: viNNuLAr perumARkadimai seyvAraiyum seRum aimpulan ivai maNNuL ennaip peRRAl en seyyAmaRRu nIyum vittAl? paNNuLAy! kavi thannuLAy! paththiyinuLLAy! paramIsanE vandhen kaNNuLAy! nenjchuLAy! solluLAy! onRu sollAyE Here the original question was on, who is meant by the term 'viNNULAr' and if they are vaikunta vAsi's how is that they are they affected by the five senses? I think instead of looking at the one line alone, one needs to look at the thrust of the whole pasuram. First, can the viNNuLArs be anyone other than vaikunta vAsis? Without going into the vyakhyanam, I think we can say that they are indeed that, based on the next qualification given - 'perumARkku adimai seyvAr'. It is highly doubtful that Azhvar would qualify beings from any other lOka with that adjective. Because, if one allows that for other lOkas then we too could stake claim to that - true kainkarya paras. And we all know how absurd that would be. Let's look at another pasuram: "viNNuLAr viyappa vanthu Anaikku anRu aruLai Intha kaNNaRAy!". Here too, the viNNuLArs are said to be those in parama padam. A different term used: "vAnuLAr aRiyalAgA vAnavA". Here too the vAnuLArs are said to be those in Sri Vaikuntam. Why? Because, the push behind all this is the fact that everyone of Azhvars words - in fact, the thrust of our entire sampradhayam - is the glorification of Lord Sriman Narayana. To say that some devas in other lOkas do not realize the Lord is to say nothing. It is stating the obvious. It is when we say that even those in paramapadam do not understand Him or cannot fathom His acts, that we tend to somewhat realize the grandeur and greatness of the Lord. So, with that viewpoint, let's look at the pasuram in question. If Azhvar mentioned that pull of the senses on some devas in some lOkas, which is an expected feature, then the pasuram loses its full point. This is neither satisfactory from a philosophical sense nor is it satisactory from a poetic sense. However, if we were to say that even paramapada vAsis are potential targets to these five senses, then what chance do we, who are in this world, stand against them - if He does not come to our aid ('nIyum vittAl')? Now, our total incapacity to save ourselves and our total dependency on the Lord is made clear. The question, then, is, are the beings there truly targets to the 'aimpulan' and if so, how does it work with what the Vedas say. One way we can reconcile this is that it is poetic exaggeration. One made to bring the immensity of our dependency on Him. However, if we look at Mumukshuppadi, perhaps we can get a clue. Pillai Lokachariar does point out 'kankaryaththil kaLai'. He says that a 'virOdhi' to even mukthAthmas exists. And when a virOdhi exists, it means that they are swayed by something. Perhaps, they are not the same five senses to which we are subject. Nevertheless, there is something that can possibly move them out of their true nature of service to Him for His pleasure only. Why would such a virOdhi exist? Perhaps it does to distinguish us from Him. He has no virOdhis and has no desires. However, we do have one desire ("kaNNanukkE Amathu kAmam") and we do have a virOdhi to our service. I may be wrong - but I don't think that there is any pramANam for this in the Vedas either. Finally, one thought. In our sampradhayam, one does not look for pramANams for Azhvars words. It is Azhvars words themselves that are pramANam; just like the Vedas. They are indeed the Thamiz Vedham. Due to His infinite and unconditional grace, they have been blessed with unique vision and knowledge ('mayarvu aRa mathi nalam aruLap peRRavarkaL'). There are many stories and characters in Azhvars works which do not find a place in any known purANa or itihAsa. Nevertheless we accept them as divine visions seen by Azhvars; no less than what Valmiki Bhagavan saw. It is in this vein that we have to treat Azhvars words. Once again, adiyEn seeks the forgiveness of the devotees for any and all transgressions made in the above statements. adiyEn madhurakavi dAsan Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 5, 2005 Report Share Posted October 5, 2005 Dear Sri Venkatesan Swami, I agree with what you had written.But, do the aimpulan act independent of the Lord? From the context it is clear that the Lord is in control and that's why Azhwar is praying to the Lord.But, there seems to be some Etham given to the aimpulan and because the context is about parama pada vAsis there is a doubt as to how the aimpulan could be so active there. Azhwar playing the role of a baddha Jivatma is placing this prayer. But drawing a parallel from Mukta Jivas or Nitya sUris seems a bit difficult to handle. Also, the other examples you gave are about the muktas being astonished by the Lord's mercy and that they yet don't fully understand Him.But here, the muktas are at the receiving end and are being tormented.What is the result of that? Because parama padam is the place for Nitya kainkaryam, how could that be interrupted? I fully agree that within the purview of Lord's mercy everything is possible and we are ALWAYS dependent on the Lord. These questions are only for a clarification within the accepted dependency. Ramanuja dasi Vedavalli Ranganathan Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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