Slanderous stories about Ramanuja

[Guest guest]

I like the Hare Krishna devotees for their simplicity, but the following is a

little too much for me to digest, anyway helps me draw a line. Seriously, do we

appear as objects of joke to ISKCON? Please read on completely, and also the

story about the fishes and "free will" at the end. I think the greatest

attribute of our ThennAchArya Sampradayam is not discussing anybody in a poor

light. Even Sankara was given due respect.

 

-Adiyen.

 

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura in his Vani Vaibhava makes a nice statement to show

how Sripad Ramanujacaya fits in to the overall plan of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

sripada ramanujaya visistha-dwaita siddhanta mahaprabhu gaudiya

prema mandire bidhi swarupaAn interesting story follows, showing how Ramanuja

came to assist in the pastimes of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, this originally is

found in the book of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur entitled Navadwipa Dhama

Mahatmya and sheds the view of the Gaudiya Vaisnavas upon the mission,

pastimes, and who came to help him, similar to how we are expressing here, but

without the reasons, the concept of evolution of philosophy. "Once whilst

Sripad Ramanuja Acarya was staying in Jagannatha Puri he offered prayers to

Lord Jagannatha Who became very pleased. "Lord Jagannatha appeared before Sri

Ramanuja and said, "Ramanuja, go and visit Sri Navadvipa, for very

soon I shall appear there in the house of Sri Jagannatha Misra. Sri Navadvipa is

My most beloved abode and is a part of the spiritual sky manifest in this world.

As My eternal servant and a leader amongst My devotees, you should go there.

Let your students stay here, for they are absorbed in 'dasya rasa'

(servitorship in awe and reverence) and will not understand the advanced

devotional mood (of spontaneous love of Godhead, 'raga-marg'). Travel there

alone. Any living entity who does not go to see Sri Navadvipa has been born

uselessly. Just one portion of Sri Navadvipa contains Ranga Kshetra,

Venkateshvara and Yadava Acala. Therefore go to Sri Navadvipa and see My form

of Gauranga. After gaining (My) blessings (there), go to Kurma Sthana and

rejoin your disciples." "Folding his hands, Sri Ramanuja humbly requested Lord

Jagannatha, "My dear Lord, You have mercifully told me something about Gauranga,

but exactly who He is, I don't

know." "The Lord answered, "It is known to you that Lord Sri Krishna, the Lord

of Goloka, is the Supreme Absolute Truth. That much is well known to My

devotees. That same Supreme Personality of Godhead who resides in Sri

Vrindavana is fully manifest as Gauranga, and His beloved abode, Sri

Vrindavana, is manifest as holy Navadvipa. Navadvipa is the Supreme spiritual

abode and it is transcendental to the influence of the material nature. In that

divine land, Lord Gauranga eternally resides. By My mercy that holy abode has

come to exist within this universe, but it remains completely unaffected by

'maya'. This is the verdict of the scriptures. If anyone thinks that Sri

Navadvipa is only a material location, then whatever devotion he has developed

will wither and perish. By My will, My inconceivable energy preserves this

transcendental abode within this material world. Simply by studying the

scriptures, one will not be able to understand the

Absolute Truth. Only by My mercy can My devotees understand." "Hearing these

words of Lord Jagannatha, Sripad Ramanujacarya was filled with love. "My dear

Lord," he said, "Your pastimes are truly astounding. The scriptures cannot

fully describe Your opulence's. Why is 'Gauranga-lila' not described in the

scripture? Upon reflection, I find some hint of 'Gauranga tattwa' in the

'Srutis' and 'puranas'. Now, however, all my doubts are gone and I am ready to

execute Your will. If it is Your desire, I will go to Sri Navadvipa and from

there, I will set out to preach about Lord Gauranga throughout the three

worlds, giving evidence from the scriptures to all converting them to the

devotional service of Gauranga. Please instruct me. You have just to give me

Your order." "Lord Jagannatha replied, 'Sripad Ramanuja, do not broadcast in

this way. Keep these secrets of Lord Gauranga's pastimes as they are for the

present. Only after He

has concluded His pastimes will the people in general come to understand them.

Preach about Me on the level of 'dasya rasa' as you have always done, but

within your heart worship Gauranga constantly.'Following Lord Jagannatha's

order, Sripad Ramanujacarya secretly cultivated his attraction for Sri

Navadvipa. Being very merciful, Lord Narayana led him to Vaikunthapura and

showed him His transcendental form, worshipped by manifestations of His

different energies. Sripad Ramanujacarya felt himself most fortunate to see

this, but as he watched, the Lord manifested His form as Gauranga, the son of

Jagannatha Misra. Sripad Ramanujacarya's mind became stunned by the brilliance

of His shining golden form. Lord Gauranga then placed His two lotus feet upon

Sripad Ramanujacarya's head, and Ramanujacarya filled with inspiration, began

to offer prayers. "Sripad Ramanujacarya said, "I must see Your pastimes when

You appear here in Navadvipa My Lord. I shall never

leave this place." "Lord Gauranga replied, "Your wish will be fulfilled, O son

of Keshava. When My Navadvipa 'lila' is revealed, you will again take your

birth here." "Lord Gauranga then disappeared. Greatly satisfied by the Lord's

promise, Sripad Ramanujacarya returned to Kurma Sthana, where he joined his

disciples. During his life he preached devotional service to the Lord in the

mood of dasya rasa or servitorship through out the South of India, whilst

internally he was absorbed in meditating on the pastimes of Lord Gauranga. By

Lord Gauranga's mercy, he was born again in Sri Navadvipa as a devotee named

Ananta to assist in the Lord's pastimes." "When Lord Caitanya made His

appearance in Sri Navadvipa, Ananta Vipra was already quite old. He lived in a

cottage which was situated beneath a huge old banyan tree. There, within this

humble abode, he would worship his Deities of

Lakshmi-Narayana. None could describe the pure way in which he worshipped Them.

"Ananta was a very dear friend and neighbour of Sri Vallabha Misra. Sri Vallabha

was very affectionate to him and treated him as his disciple. "On the most

glorious day when Lord Gaurasundara accepted the hand of Srimati Lakshmipriya

at the Misra's house, a huge festival was held and Ananta was invited. As the

Vipra stood watching Lord Caitanya and Srimati Lakshmipriya sitting together

during their marriage ceremony, dressed in gorgeous silks and jewels, he

realised that they were none other than his beloved Sri Lakshmi Narayana.

Unable to control his spontaneous emotions he began to dance like a madman. His

hair stood on end and his whole body trembled. Understanding, however, that his

activities might seem a little inappropriate, he finally controlled himself and

returned to his house. Entering his cottage, he sat down before his Sri

Lakshmi-Narayana Deities and again became overcome with ecstatic love. He began

to consider how his beloved Lordships had now manifested as Lord Gauranga and

Srimati Lakshmipriya. He thought, "I am so fortunate to have personally seen

Him, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. I, who am so fallen and

insignificant." As he sat there, Lord Gauranga, being very satisfied by his

devotion appeared before him. The Lord was a beautiful golden colour and His

bodily effulgence was brighter than millions of moons. He was dressed in first

class silks and decorated with valuable jewels. He sat on a fabulous golden

throne which was studded with gems and Srimati Lakshmi Devi at His side. "Lord

Gauranga could understand what Ananta was thinking and manifested His four armed

Narayana form. Seeing his worshipable Lord Narayana standing before him, the

'brahmana' fell down at the Lord's feet to offer prayers. The Lord, being

controlled by His devotee's love, smiled

charmingly at him. "O My beloved devotee," the Lord said, "By My will you have

seen this form. Anyone who sees My form has all his desires fulfilled." Then

after placing His lotus feet on Ananta's head, the Lord departed. Ananta became

totally absorbed in remembrance of the Lord's Sri Navadvipa pastimes." One can

see from incidences like these, that these personalities were no ordinary

conditioned souls, or for that matter sinful living entities, but directly the

Lord's intimate, and trusted devotees. More..... Once Ramanuja was walking

along with his 5 top sannyasi disciples. Stopping by a pond, he took some

prasadam and threw half of it in the water for the fish. Then he got up to

walk on. Just then the fish who had taken the prasadam assumed four-handed

forms and rose up in the air, returning home, back to Godhead. The 5 sannyasis

stopped and begand to disrobe. Ramanuja turned and asked them why they were not

following. They said, "We are thunder- struck. Please explain what we have

just seen. Otherwise, how can we follow behind you in this condition?"

Ramanuja answered, "You've seen the power of taking maha-prasadam." They

answered, "But we are taking your maha-prasadam daily, and this is not

happening to us." Ramanuja said, "These creatures have no free will, and

therefore make no offense. So they get full benefit at once. But you with

your free will and

human intelligence make offenses, and thus you hinder your own progress."

Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.

[Guest guest]

SrI:

 

It is indeed sickening to read these kind of

interprtations by these modern day 'gurus'. These

"Moorkhas" should be ignored.

 

"Naathigarum Nal Kalaiyin * Nal Neriser Aathikarum

Athiga naathigarumam ivarai* Orthu nenjE!

munnavarum pinnavarum * Moorkharena vittu *

nadu sonnavarai naalum thodar" - Upadesa Rathnamalai

- 68

 

"..... than nenjil thotrinathe solli * idhu suththa

upadesa vara vaattadenbar moorkkar avvar" - Updesa

Rathnamalai - 71.

 

 

Adiyen

 

Ramanuja Dasan

Sampath Kumar.

 

 

--- vimalkumar ranganathan <panardasan

wrote:

 

> SrI:

>

> I like the Hare Krishna devotees for their

> simplicity, but the following is a little too much

> for me to digest, anyway helps me draw a line.

> Seriously, do we appear as objects of joke to

> ISKCON? Please read on completely, and also the

> story about the fishes and "free will" at the end. I

> think the greatest attribute of our ThennAchArya

> Sampradayam is not discussing anybody in a poor

> light. Even Sankara was given due respect.

>

> -Adiyen.

>

>

> Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura in his Vani Vaibhava

> makes a nice statement to show how Sripad

> Ramanujacaya fits in to the overall plan of Sri

> Caitanya Mahaprabhu. sripada ramanujaya

> visistha-dwaita siddhanta

> mahaprabhu gaudiya prema mandire bidhi

> swarupaAn interesting story follows, showing how

> Ramanuja came to assist in the pastimes of Sri

> Caitanya Mahaprabhu, this originally is found in the

> book of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur entitled Navadwipa

> Dhama Mahatmya and sheds the view of the Gaudiya

> Vaisnavas upon the mission, pastimes, and who came

> to help him, similar to how we are expressing here,

> but without the reasons, the concept of evolution of

> philosophy.

> "Once whilst Sripad Ramanuja Acarya was staying in

> Jagannatha Puri he offered prayers to Lord

> Jagannatha Who became very pleased.

> "Lord Jagannatha appeared before Sri Ramanuja and

> said, "Ramanuja, go and visit Sri Navadvipa, for

> very soon I shall appear there in the house of Sri

> Jagannatha Misra. Sri Navadvipa is My most beloved

> abode and is a part of the spiritual sky manifest in

> this world. As My eternal servant and a leader

> amongst My devotees, you should go there. Let your

> students stay here, for they are absorbed in 'dasya

> rasa' (servitorship in awe and reverence) and will

> not understand the advanced devotional mood (of

> spontaneous love of Godhead, 'raga-marg'). Travel

> there alone. Any living entity who does not go to

> see Sri Navadvipa has been born uselessly. Just one

> portion of Sri Navadvipa contains Ranga Kshetra,

> Venkateshvara and Yadava Acala. Therefore go to Sri

> Navadvipa and see My form of Gauranga. After gaining

> (My) blessings (there), go to Kurma Sthana and

> rejoin your disciples."

> "Folding his hands, Sri Ramanuja humbly requested

> Lord Jagannatha, "My dear Lord, You have mercifully

> told me something about Gauranga, but exactly who He

> is, I don't know."

> "The Lord answered, "It is known to you that Lord

> Sri Krishna, the Lord of Goloka, is the Supreme

> Absolute Truth. That much is well known to My

> devotees. That same Supreme Personality of Godhead

> who resides in Sri Vrindavana is fully manifest as

> Gauranga, and His beloved abode, Sri Vrindavana, is

> manifest as holy Navadvipa. Navadvipa is the

> Supreme spiritual abode and it is transcendental to

> the influence of the material nature. In that divine

> land, Lord Gauranga eternally resides. By My mercy

> that holy abode has come to exist within this

> universe, but it remains completely unaffected by

> 'maya'. This is the verdict of the scriptures. If

> anyone thinks that Sri Navadvipa is only a material

> location, then whatever devotion he has developed

> will wither and perish. By My will, My inconceivable

> energy preserves this transcendental abode within

> this material world. Simply by studying the

> scriptures, one will not be able to understand the

> Absolute Truth. Only by My mercy can My devotees

> understand."

> "Hearing these words of Lord Jagannatha, Sripad

> Ramanujacarya was filled with love. "My dear Lord,"

> he said, "Your pastimes are truly astounding. The

> scriptures cannot fully describe Your opulence's.

> Why is 'Gauranga-lila' not described in the

> scripture? Upon reflection, I find some hint of

> 'Gauranga tattwa' in the 'Srutis' and 'puranas'.

> Now, however, all my doubts are gone and I am ready

> to execute Your will. If it is Your desire, I will

> go to Sri Navadvipa and from there, I will set out

> to preach about Lord Gauranga throughout the three

> worlds, giving evidence from the scriptures to all

> converting them to the devotional service of

> Gauranga. Please instruct me. You have just to give

> me Your order."

> "Lord Jagannatha replied, 'Sripad Ramanuja, do not

> broadcast in this way. Keep these secrets of Lord

> Gauranga's pastimes as they are for the present.

> Only after He has concluded His pastimes will the

> people in general come to understand them. Preach

> about Me on the level of 'dasya rasa' as you have

> always done, but within your heart worship Gauranga

> constantly.'Following Lord Jagannatha's order,

> Sripad Ramanujacarya secretly cultivated his

> attraction for Sri Navadvipa. Being very merciful,

> Lord Narayana led him to Vaikunthapura and showed

> him His transcendental form, worshipped by

> manifestations of His different energies. Sripad

> Ramanujacarya felt himself most fortunate to see

> this, but as he watched, the Lord manifested His

> form as Gauranga, the son of Jagannatha Misra.

> Sripad Ramanujacarya's mind became stunned by the

> brilliance of His shining golden form. Lord Gauranga

> then placed His two lotus feet upon Sripad

> Ramanujacarya's head, and Ramanujacarya filled with

> inspiration,

> began to offer prayers.

> "Sripad Ramanujacarya said, "I must see Your

> pastimes when You appear here in Navadvipa My Lord.

> I shall never leave this place."

> "Lord Gauranga replied, "Your wish will be

> fulfilled, O son of Keshava. When My Navadvipa

> 'lila' is revealed, you will again take your birth

> here."

> "Lord Gauranga then disappeared. Greatly satisfied

> by the Lord's promise, Sripad Ramanujacarya returned

> to Kurma Sthana, where he joined his disciples.

> During his life he preached devotional service to

> the Lord in the mood of dasya rasa or servitorship

> through out the South of India, whilst internally he

> was absorbed in meditating on the pastimes of Lord

> Gauranga. By Lord Gauranga's mercy, he was born

> again in Sri Navadvipa as a devotee named Ananta to

> assist in the Lord's pastimes."

> "When Lord Caitanya made His appearance in Sri

> Navadvipa, Ananta Vipra was already quite old. He

> lived in a cottage which was situated beneath a huge

> old banyan tree. There, within this humble abode, he

> would worship his Deities of Lakshmi-Narayana. None

> could describe the pure way in which he worshipped

> Them.

> "Ananta was a very dear friend and neighbour of Sri

> Vallabha Misra. Sri Vallabha was very affectionate

> to him and treated him as his disciple.

> "On the most glorious day when Lord Gaurasundara

> accepted the hand of Srimati Lakshmipriya at the

> Misra's house, a huge festival was held and Ananta

> was invited. As the Vipra stood watching Lord

> Caitanya and Srimati Lakshmipriya sitting together

> during their marriage ceremony, dressed in gorgeous

> silks and jewels, he realised that they were none

> other than his beloved Sri Lakshmi Narayana. Unable

> to control his spontaneous emotions he began to

> dance like a madman. His hair stood on end and his

> whole body trembled. Understanding, however, that

> his activities might seem a little inappropriate, he

> finally controlled himself and returned to his

> house. Entering his cottage, he sat down before his

> Sri Lakshmi-Narayana Deities and again became

> overcome with ecstatic love. He began to consider

> how his beloved Lordships had now manifested as Lord

> Gauranga and Srimati Lakshmipriya. He thought, "I am

> so fortunate to have personally seen Him, the

> Supreme Personality of Godhead. I, who am so

> fallen and insignificant." As he sat there, Lord

> Gauranga, being very satisfied by his devotion

> appeared before him. The Lord was a beautiful golden

> colour and His bodily effulgence was brighter than

> millions of moons. He was dressed in first class

> silks and decorated with valuable jewels. He sat on

> a fabulous golden throne which was studded with gems

> and Srimati Lakshmi Devi at His side.

> "Lord Gauranga could understand what Ananta was

> thinking and manifested His four armed Narayana

> form. Seeing his worshipable Lord Narayana standing

> before him, the 'brahmana' fell down at the Lord's

> feet to offer prayers. The Lord, being controlled by

> His devotee's love, smiled charmingly at him. "O My

> beloved devotee," the Lord said, "By My will you

> have seen this form. Anyone who sees My form has all

> his desires fulfilled." Then after placing His lotus

> feet on Ananta's head, the Lord departed. Ananta

> became totally absorbed in remembrance of the Lord's

> Sri Navadvipa pastimes."

> One can see from incidences like these, that these

> personalities were no ordinary conditioned souls, or

> for that matter sinful living entities, but directly

> the Lord's intimate, and trusted devotees.

> More.....

> Once Ramanuja was walking along with his 5 top

> sannyasi disciples. Stopping by a pond, he took some

> prasadam and threw half of it in the water for the

> fish. Then he got up to walk on. Just then the

> fish who had taken the prasadam assumed four-handed

> forms and rose up in the air, returning home, back

> to Godhead. The 5 sannyasis stopped and begand to

> disrobe. Ramanuja turned and asked them why they

> were not following. They said, "We are thunder-

> struck. Please explain what we have just seen.

> Otherwise, how can we follow behind you in this

> condition?" Ramanuja answered, "You've seen the

> power of taking maha-prasadam." They answered, "But

> we are taking your maha-prasadam daily, and this is

> not happening to us." Ramanuja said, "These

> creatures have no free will, and therefore make no

> offense.

=== message truncated ===

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005

 

[Guest guest]

ramanuja, vimalkumar ranganathan

<panardasan> wrote:

>

> SrI:

>

> I like the Hare Krishna devotees for their simplicity, but the

>following is a little too much for me to digest, anyway helps me

>draw a line. Seriously, do we appear as objects of joke to ISKCON?

>Please read on completely, and also the story about the fishes

>and "free will" at the end. I think the greatest attribute of our

>ThennAchArya Sampradayam is not discussing anybody in a poor light.

>Even Sankara was given due respect.

>

> -Adiyen.

 

I suggest one should be careful while dealing with the other sampradayas.

Their bhajans and nice way of talking could mislead some away from Sri

Vaishnavam.

 

> Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura in his Vani Vaibhava makes a nice

>statement to show how Sripad Ramanujacaya fits in to the overall

>plan of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. sripada ramanujaya visistha-

>dwaita siddhanta

 

> "Lord Jagannatha replied, 'Sripad Ramanuja, do not broadcast in

>this way. Keep these secrets of Lord Gauranga's pastimes as they are

>for the present. Only after He has concluded His pastimes will the

>people in general come to understand them. Preach about Me on the

>level of 'dasya rasa' as you have always done, but within your heart

>worship Gauranga constantly.'Following Lord Jagannatha's order,

>Sripad Ramanujacarya secretly cultivated his attraction for Sri

>Navadvipa.

 

Did Lord Jaganatha ever instruct Sri Ramanajacharya to lie?

Why So? What is so secret about Chaitanya's pastimes ?

 

adiyen

[Guest guest]

Sri Ramanuja Cannot be belittled by these people

By pastimes what the author refers is unclear

Anyway it is beleived Caitanya is Lord Krishnas Avatar by North Indians &

Ramanuja being his bed I feel we may take it as that as WE are better informed

Pls Excuse IF I have erred

Dasan BRP

On 10/20/05, Mano <mano1205 > wrote:

 

ramanuja, vimalkumar ranganathan <panardasan> wrote:>>

SrI:> > I like the Hare Krishna devotees for their simplicity, but the

>following is a little too much for me to digest, anyway helps me >draw a line.

Seriously, do we appear as objects of joke to ISKCON? >Please read on

completely, and also the story about the fishes >and "free will" at the end. I

think the greatest attribute of our >ThennAchArya Sampradayam is not discussing

anybody in a poor light. >Even Sankara was given due respect.> > -Adiyen. I

suggest one should be careful while dealing with the other sampradayas. Their

bhajans and nice way of talking could mislead some away from Sri Vaishnavam.>

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura in his Vani Vaibhava makes a nice >statement to show

how Sripad Ramanujacaya fits in to the overall >plan of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

sripada ramanujaya visistha->dwaita siddhanta > "Lord Jagannatha replied,

'Sripad Ramanuja, do not broadcast in >this way. Keep these secrets of Lord

Gauranga's pastimes as they are >for the present. Only after He has concluded

His pastimes will the >people in general come to understand them. Preach about

Me on the >level of 'dasya rasa' as you have always done, but within your heart

>worship Gauranga constantly.'Following Lord Jagannatha's order, >Sripad

Ramanujacarya secretly cultivated his attraction for Sri >Navadvipa. Did Lord

Jaganatha ever instruct Sri Ramanajacharya to lie?

Why So? What is so secret about Chaitanya's pastimes ?adiyen

azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam

 

Visit your group "ramanuja" on the web.

ramanuja

-- Regards B.R.Parthasarathi

[Guest guest]

Dear Mano Prabhu,

 

Hare Krishna.

Please accept my humble obeisances.

 

I read your mail on the list. In all humility, I beg

forgiveness if you have felt Sripad Ramanujacharya or

the Sri Sampradaya slandered or joked at in any way.

That has never been the intent in the least.

 

However, we must realise that Vaishnavas belonging to

different sampradayas have always seen the Acharyas of

other sampradayas from the viewpoint presented by

their own Acharyas. The Gaudiya Vaishnava line means

no disrespect to Sripada Ramanujacharya in its

presentation. The particular pastime you have narrated

about Sripad Ramanujacharya, Lord Jagannatha and Sri

Chaitanya Mahaprabhu appears in the work ‘Sri

Navadvipa dham Mahatmya’ of Srila Bhaktivinode

Thakura. This work if not considered as completely

acceptable to all Vaishnava Sampradayas, should at

least be accepted as an internal sampradaya work for

those who have reposed their faith in the ultimate

superiority of the particular philosophy of

Vaishnavism espoused by Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and

the Acharyas in His line as per their internal

realization and revelation.

 

A website presenting the Sri Vaishnava view on things

would naturally relegate other lines like the Madhva

and Gaudiya to partial truths which have flaws in

them. The Ahobila Mutt website in its Q and A section

has such a simplistic view of this, with not much to

show for except a certain absolutist claim as to the

superiority of VisishtAdvaita. This certainly can be

seen as slanderous by the Shankarites, Madhvas and

Gaudiyas. But let us think for a moment – is this not

a state-of-the-matter issue based on the differing

frameworks of each sampradaya? This is nothing new to

impose such a strong word as ‘slander’. It is an

admitted fact for centuries together that there are

differences in views, both siddhantic and historical

in how things are viewed. Sripad Madhvacharya and his

followers have their framework of analysis which

naturally relegates Sripad Ramanujacharya and his

followers to a subsidiary position in terms of the

position of the ultimate siddhanta. The followers of

Nimbarkacharya and Vallabhacharya also have their own

analysis of things. Likewise, the Gaudiya Vaishnava

Acharyas have their own realization in terms of how

Mahaprabhu’s siddhanta synthesizes and completes the

views of the other sampradayas which as per their

views, had till that time remained incomplete in some

sense. In which sense is known to them and explained

by them. No one is looking for absolute acceptance

from the others in this regard in as much as the

others cannot expect the Gaudiya line to accept their

claims. This is only natural in as much as Hanuman

would see Lord Ramachandra as the best worshipable

form and Arjuna would see Lord Krishna in the same

manner. We can never make Hanuman into Arjuna or

vice-versa.

 

Now, as to the validity of every one of these claims,

the arguments and counter-arguments can go on till the

cows come home. Essentially, the claim of one’s own

superiority vis-à-vis the other is a matter of

sampradaya lakshana to champion one’s own Acharya line

as superior or final. There is not much of an issue of

finality in terms of shruti pramana in this for

otherwise the debates would have ended by now. It is

merely a matter of allegiance. An internal Sri

Vaishnava position would naturally present every

aspect in its own favour and would not present Madhva

or Chaitanya Mahaprabhu in the same way that their

respective followers would present them. Likewise with

Sripad Ramanujacharya and the various views held of

him. Because your allegiance is ultimately with

Visishtadvaita, you would naturally view any

subsidiary position given to Sripad Ramanujacharya as

slander. But such charges of ‘slander’ can be levelled

upon the Sri Vaishnavas as well by the followers of

the other lines because the view on things has always

been different in this regard.

 

>From the Gaudiya viewpoint, the story you have cited

only adds to the glory of Acharya Ramanuja because of

his link to Mahaprabhu. So, this is essentially a

matter of emotion related to where your sampradayic

allegiance lies. There is no absolute case for slander

here. For example, a Sri Vaishnava presentation of

Mahaprabhu in a subservient position just as a devotee

as opposed to being Sri Krishna Himself, would offend

any Gaudiya Vaishnava. Aprakrta lila or personalities

appearing in visions or glimpses prior to their actual

physical appearance has been present in all lines.

There are also narrations where the same personality

appears as another acharya in a future birth. These

are not in virodha to scripture. If we accept pramana

not merely as a fixated understanding and one always

open to divine evolution and subjective

interpretation, then there is no controversy. Such

incidents are also present in the Sri Vaishnava and

Sat Vaishnava (Madhva) lines with regards to their

respective acharyas. Those within these lines very

readily accept these without any wrangling about any

other pramanas besides those revealed by their

acharyas. But these are within the framework of ‘us’

and ‘our’. But when it is seen vis-à-vis ‘the other’,

then it becomes blasphemy, etc. But we need not take

these things in such a ‘slanderous’ manner if we

understand that ultimately one has the choice to

decide which version to accept and on what basis.

Ultimately, it is one’s individual faith and

sampradaya conviction that decides which version of

things is accepted. The various pramanas and

counter-pramanas and heavy debating do not suit a

forum of this nature. Furthermore, they are neither

satisfactorily conclusive for all nor ultimately

relevant for one’s own conviction if it is indeed

fixed. Even if the conviction is shaky, let the

individual decide and not make accusations of slander

against those with other views of evolutionary

development in Vaishnavism.

 

If you wish to understand the Gaudiya Vaishnava view

on these pastimes, please post your queries to

achintya . We would do our best to

explain our understanding. There is no point posting

the views of one sampradaya to another’s digest list,

using very harsh words like ‘slander’, etc. and asking

for rebuttals, and then having them come purely from

the Sri Vaishnava view, with no counter voice present

on the digest. Afterall, this is a Sri Vaishnava list

meant to discuss the works of the Sri Vaishnava

Acharyas. If we bring the comparative element inside,

then we must accept that other voices besides the

Visishtadvaita voice will not be heard here, thus

rendering any objectivity useless. When the view and

intent of the original propounder of the pastimes and

theories is not sought to begin with, then there is no

use feeling too hurt for our own sake. The ‘slander’

word is the natural reaction of those like yourself

who hold Sripad Ramanuja as ultimate. Naturally, no

one would like to have their Acharya put in a

subservient position. But we must realise that there

are those of other allegiances who would have other

frameworks of analysis. And from their view, the Sri

Vaishnava presentation of other darshanas would also

be seen in that same ‘slanderous’ light. Certainly,

the Gaudiya view is not intended for slander but for

glorification of his bona fides in establishing a

vital stage in the evolution of Sriman Mahaprabhu’s

philosophy. This is the Gaudiya view on things. So you

are most welcome to post your queries to the achintya

list and we would be happy to explain to the best that

our puny brain has understood.

 

All of us should know that since time immemorial, the

various sampradayas have their agreements and

disagreements in terms of their respective frameworks

of analysis. Why then present these like a new

pandora’s box let loose and for sirens to sound when

these have all been accepted as part of the basic

intellectual pluralistic development of Vedic

philosophy and religion? The methods of synthesis of

various spiritual movements and how they fit into the

overall scheme of things is very much related to our

individual sampradayic allegiances. There is no need

to use such strong words such as ‘slander’, etc. if we

can accept this premise not just for ourselves but

also for others as well. In an arena of sampradayic

subjectivity, which should be a state-of-the-matter

fact in analyzing the evolution of Vedic philosophy,

historical development, prakrta lila and aprakrta lila

etc., there is no need to use such a heavy word like

‘slander’ when no one has such intent to begin with,

at least not the Gaudiya Vaishnavas. If we apply faith

to our own conviction and apply faithless logic in

rejecting other views, then we must understand that

such can also be entertained by others of other

persuasions. We have to take these things with a pinch

of salt, favourably acknowledging one another’s

service at the lotus feet of Sri Krishna or Sriman

Narayana, no matter which line and acharya we repose

our faith in and which framework of history and

pastime reflection we may hold closest to our hearts.

 

Again, I beg forgiveness on behalf of all the ISKCON

devotees and others in the Gaudiya Vaishnava line if

you have felt any hurt. But in all sincerity, the

material under discussion is not intended to cause

hurt. It is merely our own framework of analysis as to

how Sripad Ramanujacharya and the other Acharyas fit

into the scheme of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu’s mission

and I think that like every other line, we are also

entitled to our own internal realisation in this

regard. We are not demanding that everyone just accept

this vision of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura which

essentially is seen as aprakrta lila or unmanifest

pastime. We do know that this will not hold fully well

with others in as much as what others may present of

our line would not be totally agreeable with us. But

we will not use such a strong word like ‘slander’ to

define such subjectivity. It is a matter of allegiance

and what we should do is to at least accept the

subjective nature brought about by this plurality and

appreciate one another’s services and aspects of

Vaishnava commonality otherwise present. For every

issue, there is the insider view and the outsider

view. Let us remember that in this instance, even the

outsider is an insider in one sense, i.e. a Vaishnava

Acharya with deep respect for Sripada Ramanujacharya

albeit within a framework of ultimate reverence,

loyalty and realisation in connection with his beloved

Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. Ultimately, our own

conviction is for us to decide. No one can ‘weer’,

‘mislead’, ‘convert’, ‘brainwash’ etc. beyond what we

wish to allow ourselves to be convinced with. These

are buzzwords with no seriously sensible objective

meaning. I do not think that any mature Gaudiya

Vaishnava would deem a Sri Vaishnava’s version of

Lakshmi Narayana worship or subsidiary view of Sri

Chaitanya Mahaprabhu as a slanderous mislead. It is

merely a relativisation of others vis-à-vis one’s own

sampradaya loyalty. If handled in a mature spiritual

manner, this will not be a disturbance. If handled

immaturely, it can become a Vaishnava aparadha that

can destroy one’s devotional service, regardless of

sampradaya affiliations. On many occasions, much to my

heart’s bleeding, I have also seen baseless knee-jerk

slander of Gaudiya Vaishnavism without even the most

rudimentary understanding of its siddhanta, on many

Sri Vaishnava and Madhva lists. No matter the

sampradayic affiliation, the proponents of such

slander do not deserve any recognition in the field of

spiritual activity. If we only half know issues based

on our own biases and then retort emotionally, we are

paving the path for spiritual destruction. Ultimately,

consideration must come before reaction or

retaliation. That will keep things in proper

perspective.

 

 

Hare Krishna.

 

Gopi bhartu pada kamalayor dasa dasAnu das

R. Jai Simman

Jakarta, Indonesia

 

 

 

 

 

FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.

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[Guest guest]

I total agree with the previous Bhakth sometimes Gaudiyas seem to simlify

Srivaishanavism in the light of their own Doctrines and Beleifs. Now as

aldready said, The Sampradaya of Ramanuja is so inclusive and respectful that

even Adi Shankaracharaya is given respect, therefore i have respect for other

Sampradayas, in particular the Gaudiyas, here in the UK they do so much to

spread Bhakthi, it was the Gaudiyas who told me about how Bonafide Ramanuja

Sampradaya is. And they have done much to encourage my Bhakthi (which is no

leaning to Visitadvaita sidhanta and Ramanuja sampradaya) However i must point

out some of the comments and views which about Sri Ramanuja and Sri sampradaya

which i dont agree with.

 

1) With regards to the whole issue of Rasa and moods of Bhakthi

(rasas/bhavas)..There is Shanta (neutral i.e cows and trees of Vrindavan),

Dasya (serventship i.e Hanuman), Sakhya (friendship i.e Arguna), Vatsalya

(parental love i.e Kausalya, Yashoda) and finaly Madurya/Sringara (romance i.e.

Gopis). Now the Gaudiyas emphasise the Sringara/Madurya bhav and the Pushtimarg

the Vatsalya, these two moods are seen as 'higher rasas' in their respective

sidhantas and they mainly worship the Images of the lord which are Madurya

(sweetness) which are associated with this type of Bhakthi, so Radha-Krishna

and Bala Krishna.. Now in Sri sapradaya the popular Sri vighrahas are Bhagavan

in 'aishwarya' (majestic and grand) forms such as Ranganatha, Srinivasa and

Devraja Perumal where the lord is worshiped with Sri, Bhu, Rukmani etc.... the

gaudiyas and Vallabhas however claim that sri Vaishanava bhakthi is only Dasya

Rasa (servitorship)

and that Ramanuja only spread Dasya Bhava, this is however a

misunderstanding..from Thrirupavai we know that Sri Goda Devi Andal was in the

mood of the Gopis, her Bhakthi is Prime example of Madurya Bhakthi.which

Gaudiyas talk about. Then her father Sri Vishnuchitta Alawar wrote many hyms (i

do not know the names) where he sang in the vioce of Yashoda, recalling the

lilas of BalaKrishna in great detail, these Beautiful verses are charged with

Vatsalya Bhakthi which the Pushtimarg talk about..The Pushtimarg say that the

Bhakthi they teach is 'Pushti bhakthi' or spontanous love and not 'Maryada

Bhakthi' which is ritualistic...This howvere is the same as The docrine of

Prapatti which is in Srivaishanva Sidhanta always teaches and Pustimarg should

not ignore this.

 

2) Another issue which i have encountred with Gaudiyas is the exclusive position

they give to Hare Krishna maha mantra..Now i don not disrespect this Mantra in

any way, i sing Hare Krishna sankeertan in my bhajans everyday. But what i have

encountered is that the Gaudiyas say that this is the only mantra for the Kali

yuga.. now the Bhagavatam says that in the Kali yuga the main dharma is

Hari-nam chating the names of the lord, this does not just mean the hare

Krishna mantra, this also means the Ashtakshari Maha mantra which Ramanuja

Spread to all people..I recently spoke to two Gaudiya Bhakthas about increasing

bhakthi in my daily life and we came onto the topic of Harinam Chanting, i told

them that i am daily chating the Namo Narayanaya, ashtakashari maha mantra as

per the instruction of Sri Ramanuja. However one Gaudiya bhaktha told me that

it would be better that i chant Hare Krishna , he told me that all

mantras including Sri Ashtaksari are included in the Hare Krishna Mahamantra. I

did not agree with this coment. Know in my porsonal opinion Hari nam is Hari

nam, whether you chant Namo NArayanaya, Hare Krishna, Sri Rama or Sri Krishna

sharanmama, these are all divya-mangala nama-mantras of Our lord. In this Kali

yuga people are not chanting any name of the lord or they foolishly chat the

name of false-bogus self proclaimed gods such as Saibaba..So for me Hare

Krishna and ashtaksari are on the same level, but i chant Ashtaksari as it was

done by Ramanuja..

 

All devottees of the Lord should leave aside differences in this day and age and

work togther to enlighten the world. They should not write things which

disrespect other Vaishanvas!!

[Guest guest]

Dear Bhakthas

 

Adiyen would like to place my humble view to all

Bhagavathas on this subject. Please excuse and ignore

my ignorance if any. I completely agree to the other

Bhagavatha from ISKCON inspite of my affliations to

other sampradaya.

 

For all of us, who has submitted to the mercy of

Sreeman Narayana who is beautifully described by Sri

Namalwar as "Uyarvara Uyar nalam Udayavan evanavan",

all these does not matter. What matters is just to

surrender to him and with his mercy do service to him

through what ever be the path shown by our acharyas

accetable to the individual. Adiyen would like to

present my view once again, what is more important

than any thing else is service to the Supreme and any

thing that come in the way of that is only a

diversion.

 

We had been having all these talks back and forth from

Thenkalai and Vadagalai sampradayams sides in south

for long. But we have out grown our small minds and

started enjoying all the great works of all our great

Acharyas.

 

One very important fact embedded in many incidence in

Mahabaratha as per our seers, which can be explained

using the incidence of Dhraupathi's "vastrapaharan"

is: Apparantly Dhrowpathi could not see the mercy of

the Supreme till she was conscious about all the

others other than the Supreme (that is till she

thought about herself). The moment she lost her

identity and merged with Prabhu, she sees the mercy of

him. The humble view here is all these external stuff

does not matter and what matters the most is the love,

devotion and service to the Supreme.

 

What else is more important than to do service to him

and his Bhagavathas, who ever they may be...if one

pronounces the name of The Supreme whatever may be his

view.

 

I request pardon of my ignorance if I have affended

unintentionally any one. All of you are requested to

ignore adiyen's blabaring as as "Siru pillai saidha

thavaru".

 

"Ettraikkum Eyzhazh piravikkum Unthannodu

Uttrome aavom Umakkey Naam aatchivom

Mattra nam kamangal Matrelo"

 

Andal thiruvadigale saranam

 

Dhasan

 

Suresh Parthasarathy

[Guest guest]

Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha

 

Namaskaram Jai Simman Prabhuji

 

> Dear Mano Prabhu,

>

> Hare Krishna.

> Please accept my humble obeisances.

>

> I read your mail on the list. In all humility, I beg

> forgiveness if you have felt Sripad Ramanujacharya or

> the Sri Sampradaya slandered or joked at in any way.

> That has never been the intent in the least.

 

I just don't understand why this was addressed to me !

 

Let me put things in perspective, this thread was started by Sriman

Vimal Kuamr Ranganthan on 13th Oct (refer to message

ramanuja/message/58830)

 

Therefore, you asking for forgiveness in all humility has to

relevance to me.

 

What I did was, merely adding my comments to this topic.

 

If you wanted to respond to my comments, then you should have

addressed my following comments in the message

ramanuja/message/5909

 

"I suggest one should be careful while dealing with the other

sampradayas. Their bhajans and nice way of talking could mislead

some away from Sri Vaishnavam".

 

Followed by

 

"Did Lord Jaganatha ever instruct Sri Ramanajacharya to lie?

Why So? What is so secret about Chaitanya's pastimes ?"

 

I don't wish to get into a futile lengthy debate.

 

However, I wish to clarify that the subject of this thread was on

how Ramanujacharya was portrayed in the Navadvipa Dham Mahatmya, a

work authored by the foremost Gaudiya acharaya Bhaktivinod Thakur.

 

I Quote Sriman Vimal Kumar

 

"I like the Hare Krishna devotees for their simplicity, but the

following is a little too much for me to digest, anyway helps me

draw a line. Seriously, do we appear as objects of joke to ISKCON?

Please read on completely, and also the story about the fishes

and "free will" at the end. I think the greatest attribute of our

ThennAchArya Sampradayam is not discussing anybody in a poor light.

Even Sankara was given due respect."

 

Sriman Vimal Kuamr was highlighting how Ramanujacharja was depicted

in the Navadvipa Dhama Mahatmya and he had also mentioned these

 

"our ThennAchArya Sampradayam is not discussing anybody in a poor

light. Even Sankara was given due respect."

 

The point is - had any Sri Vaishanava acharyas (eg Pillai

Lokacharya, Vedanta Desikan or Manavalamamuni etc)

comments on other Vaishnava sampradya's acharyas {eg Madhvacharya,

Nimbarka etc) or divive incarnations that would amount to be

labelled as "slanderous"

 

As such, I find sermon to me is totally irrelevant to this topic.

 

Here are few extracts from Navadiviap Dhama Mahatyma

 

Madhvacharya in Navadvipa Dhama Mahatmya

 

One night, as Madhva lay sleeping, Lord Gauranga appeared to him in

a dream. The Lord told Madhva, "It is well known to everyone that

you are My eternal servitor. When I appear here in Navadwipa, I will

accept your sampradaya. Travel everywhere and carefully uproot all

the false scriptures of the mayavadis and reveal the glories of

worshipping the personal form of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Later, when I appear, I will personally broadcast your pure

teachings." The Lord then disappeared.

When Madhva awoke, he was astonished and as he remembered the Lord

he began to cry in separation, saying, "Will I ever see that

beautiful golden form again?" A celestial voice from the sky

replied, "Worship Me secretly and you will come to Me."

 

Nimbarka in Navadvipa Dhama Mahatmya

 

"Mahaprabhu said, 'Please keep this form secret now. Just preach

Krishna bhakti and the pastimes of Radha and Krishna, for I am very

happy in these pastimes. When the form of Gauranga will appear, He

will enjoy His educational pastimes. Just at that time you will take

birth in Kashmir, and as a pandit out to defeat all opponents, you

will tour India. You will be celebrated everywhere for your great

learning and will be called Kesava Kashmiri. While wandering in

Navadvipa, you will come to Mayapur. The great learned men of

Navadvipa, when they hear your name will flee. Intoxicated with

scholastic studies, I will then take pleasure in defeating you.

However, by the mercy of Sarasvati, you will realize My identity,

give up your own pride, and take shelter of Me. At that time I will

give you the gift of bhakti and will send you out to preach

devotional service again. Thus you can satisfy Me by preaching the

philosophy of Dvaita Advaita, keeping My identity secret."

 

Adiyen

 

Yatiraja Ramanuja dasanudasan

[Guest guest]

That is what the crux is. Let us not devote time in finding out wrongs or

unnecessary clarifications on the mundane things. Let is extol his leela and

live a life of saranagathi.

 

Whether it is GITA or RAMAYANA bagwan says saranagathi is the way. Let us follow him

and enjoy all the seers who have extolled him and try and get that aananda in us.

[Guest guest]

I totally agree. Each Sampradayam is superior to its

follower, which is natural. But, having placed ISKCON in a high pedestal in my

mind for Bhakti and sincerity, and ofcourse the respect they give to other

AchAryAs (they celebrate Ramanuja's appearance day at Sriperumbudur every year,

without fail) this is a jolt for a person like me, that is all. Again, my

attempt is not to vilify ISKCON or the Gaudiya movement. Also what ISKCON sees

and does internally, is well beyond my realm of concern; but when they seem to

have derived so much spiritural and scriptural inspiration from our

Sampradayam, and yet they would portray our beloved AchAryA in such light, it

is only fair to call that ironic. I just wanted all the SrivaishnavAs to be

cognizant of it, that is all.

 

Bottomline: while appreciating the greatnesses of other

sampradayam, one should also be careful about what information to process. Just

to let you know, this is not the first thing that is spoken ill of our

sampradayam.

 

I am sorry, I cannot go without questioning things in the

name of humility.

 

-dasan.

 

Vijaya Raghavan <svrvan > wrote:

Dear Swamin,

 

That is what the crux is. Let us not devote time in finding out wrongs or

unnecessary clarifications on the mundane things. Let is extol his leela and

live a life of saranagathi.

 

Whether it is GITA or RAMAYANA bagwan says saranagathi is the way. Let us follow him

and enjoy all the seers who have extolled him and try and get that aananda in us.

 

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