Guest guest Posted October 31, 2005 Report Share Posted October 31, 2005 SrI: Today I went to the Local Venkeshwara temple, run by the PudigE Mutt of the Madhwa Sampradayam. As a routine, the priests sing songs and they allow the devotees to sing too. An elderly Iyengar (I don't want to call her a Srivaishnava) lady sang a wonderful song which was pleasant to the ears, which to my shock, ended with words glorifying sai baba!! Becoming distraught, I asked her if she had taken "bharanyasam" as she is born in a family which is supposed to follow Desika Sampradayam (which they don't as it is apparent), and she says "no, but I intend to, I have taken samashrayanam though, but Sri Saibaba is my main guru". I told her, "please consider me as your grandson when I say please follow ONLY Sri dEsikA the great and nobody else", although I am born in a Thenkalai family, it still pains me, as in a larger scheme, we should all follow Ramanuja, and Swami Desikan/Swami MM are representatives of Him, anyway, the elderly lady got offended!!! And her daughter was even more upset, let me not get to the details of our conversation. All I am asking is a vadakalai person to follow HER own sampradayam!!. This is the fate of our sampradayam, the fact that pains me the most is NOT MANY of Our AchAryAs of either school stretch the importance of ananya-bhakti, and Samashrayanam has become just a mere symbolic affair. Although I have my disagreements with ISKCON, I have seen the way the Gurus of ISKCON stress the importance of surrender ONLY to Lord Krishna while decrying demi-god or any other man-god, god-man etc worship, and in a way they inspire me a lot. Why can't we do that in our sampradayam?? Whom are we afraid of?? Why can't our AchAryAs say, "hey!! just worship Lord Sriman nArAyaNA and nobody else", why simply can't they?? First of all, charity begins at home; all of us who are convinced about the path of Sri Ramanuja, should STRESS the importance of our SiddhAnthA to all our near and dear ones, talk to them about importance of ananya bhakti, discourage them from worshipping anybody but Sriman nArAyANA. Also, learn from the ISKCON devotees. We should give up coffee/tea, onion and garlic, no questions asked. If a Russian or a Polish guy can give up everything and try to follow our sampradayam, why simply can't we?? Are we so shamelessly out-of-control that we can't give up these mundane addictions?? I for one, firmly believe in this: Even a little compromise leads to the greatest degeneration, as we can see what is happening now. I am not talking about leaving everything and going back to the villages. Lord Sri Krishna talks repeatedly about doing, nay, excelling in one's duty, but as an act of sacrifice to the Lord Himself. The problem is that we are not prepared to give up anything, not prepared to educate/get educated, but then we cry hoarse about the "degeneration of our sampradayam", or worse, jump at every chance to get into a "kalai" fight. Again, I got some mails saying that I insulted DEsika, etc.. No, never. All I am saying is that only should not blindly make statements without knowing the facts in-toto. My aim was to attack not the great Sri Desikan, not even the Vadakalai Sampradayam, but only the author whose words were filled with utter dichotomy, thinking that he can get away with whatever he says/writes. I would anyday take the association of a sincere Desika Sampradaya person than an also-ran Thenkalai Iyengar. Dasan, Kidambi Soundararajan. FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2005 Report Share Posted October 31, 2005 Sri: Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha Srimath Varavara Munaye Namaha Dear Sri.Soundararajan swamin, Kindly accept adiyen's pranams. Adiyen read your mails with much more interest than most of the mails in this forum. Swamin's focus and input on our sampradhayam are much needed boost to elementary level students like me. However, adiyen beg to differ with you that our sampradhayam is in a bad state. Adiyen for once feel confident that our sampradhayam is in a strong state. However, the 'true membership' has dwindled. Adiyen wish to present three points. 1. What is our bench mark to evaluate the state of our sampradhayam? One belongs to Srivaishnavam if one's objective is Moksham (eternal bhagavath kainkaryam) and moksham only. If someone is not with that objective how can we say that they belong to our sampradhayam? In this light, the experience swamin had with that lady, singing about a baba or dhabha, she obviously is NOT interested in moksham and interested in other materialistic things. How can we say that she belongs to our sampradhayam? These 'askthika nasthikas' should simply be ignored as 'moorkas'. Why do we even evaluate our sampradhayam based on these people? If this is our bench mark, yes our sampradhayam is in a bad state. It is unneccesary for me to say that no one becomes a SriVaishnava by birth, whatever is the family background. After going through the samsaric cycle for many many births and deaths, through bhaghavatha sambhandham one gets acharya sambhandham. And eventually acharya sambhandham leads us to maha viswasam and finally to Emberuman sambhandham. And all this happens by His nirhetuka krupai only. Adiyen would view that lady's state as some one who is in lower rung of this ladder and pray to Emberuman to make her move faster. But I am not going to evaluate our sampradhayam based on her, becuase there are billions like her. 2. Why are we in the state we are now? Swamin raised a question that why can’t our acharyas stress that we should worship ONLY Sriman nArAyaNA and nobody else. But, it is beyond doubt and with absolutely no uncertainty that our acharyas have stressed this point. However, this message is not well circulated amongst us. That is becuase our poorvacharyas vyakyanams and exceptional works are in a state not easily understandable by present generation. For example, how many of the younger generation today would even dare to open and read one page of 'Edu' and try to understand? This is where the success of ISKCON is obvious. Sri.Prabhupadha made 'all' of their sampradhaya messeges so easily available in simple english. Adiyen personally know many many gaudiya vaishnavas follow that sampradhayam becuase it is presented to them in an easier way. There is a set of books called ‘Eettin Thamizhakkam’ (meaning Edu in simple Thamizh). These books are written by a scholar about 30 years before and published by University of Madras in a set of 10 volumes and provide ‘Edu’ in a simple Thamizh style. However, this is not available any more. During my last trip to India, I had to do lot of digging in University book store to trace some of the volumes of this book. I found few volumes with total damage lying in a corner of the room on floor, where as mundane novels are protected in moisture proof containers. That is the state of our sampradhayam. So, our focus must be on bringing in to light these kinds of works more and more to lime light and strengthening our foundation. May be even that lady would change. 3. Why are we still arguing about our internal differences? Any sampradhayam is bound to have different view points. As long as the fundamentals and final objective are the same, these differences in approach and practice must be viewed in a healthy and positive way with mutual respect and cooperation. However, even today in our sampradhayam, I see elders twice my age from both the schools try to score victory over the other as if this is a contest. If today’s elders realize that even after one life time, they could not dissolve the differences, at least they need not pass it on to the next generation. May be over a period of time these differences will die themselves. I don’t want my grand son or grand daughter to be still classified as some ‘kalai’ instead of simply SriVaishnavas. Swamin, kindly accept adiyen’s apology for any apacharams. It is not my intention to prove a point or anything. Adiyen personally feel that if Emberuman could choose even some one like me to surrender unto him unconditionally, our sampradhayam is not in any danger. Even though I am an elementary level student, I am not young. I am almost 40 (half the well is crossed) and still in a beginning state. May be that is the state of our sampradhayam. Regards Adiyen Ramanuja Dasan Sampath Kumar Padmanaban Azhwar Emberumanar Jeeyar Thiruvadigale Saranam Jeeyar Thiruvadigale Saranam FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2005 Report Share Posted October 31, 2005 Dear Swamy Adiyen wish to calrify my thougt process few , I could see that you wish to put certain hard followed conditions to the human beings , if I am correct , thats not the way, better way is to tell them whats with Him and try to get into the reason why she is praying Sai Baba , she is not that much foolish to pray them , she would have looked for some materialistic return and got it thru them , think about the pAsuram "Kama roopam Kondu ElunthalipAn " , its His leela. What we can make effort is to teach the swaroopam to them , see if you are so agitated now because you know the swaroopam "Ananya Seshathvam Kazhigy" , not many people are aware of such things . So in the practice what Adiyen observed is by putting any rules or regulations you cant change them unless you teach the swaroopa lakshanam to them . Let me take your points >We should give up coffee/tea, onion and garlic, no questions asked. >If a Russian or a Polish guy can give up everything and try to follow >our sampradayam, why simply can't we?? Are we so shamelessly >out-of-control that we can't give up these mundane addictions?? I for >one, firmly believe in this: Even a little compromise leads to the >greatest degeneration, as we can see what is happening now. Why we should give up all these ? if you give up every thing are you sure of what r u supposed to get , Adiyen feel NO, these are not the upAyam, thats why our poorvAcharyas never dealt with what is your food habit, what are all the Vrudhams you should etc , these are pretty ritualistic in nature , to neechan like me I will think more on those prohibited items rather than Him Now all the more important is we should try to see why people get into rest of the demi Gods and how can we address those issues from our side, here I mean lot of bhAgavada Service rather than Swaroopam etc , pl correct me if I am wrong Adiyen Guna On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 vimalkumar ranganathan wrote : >SrI: > >Today I went to the Local Venkeshwara temple, run by the PudigE Mutt of the Madhwa Sampradayam. As a routine, the priests sing songs and they allow the devotees to sing too. An elderly Iyengar (I don't want to call her a Srivaishnava) lady sang a wonderful song which was pleasant to the ears, which to my shock, ended with words glorifying sai baba!! > >Becoming distraught, I asked her if she had taken "bharanyasam" as she is born in a family which is supposed to follow Desika Sampradayam (which they don't as it is apparent), and she says "no, but I intend to, I have taken samashrayanam though, but Sri Saibaba is my main guru". I told her, "please consider me as your grandson when I say please follow ONLY Sri dEsikA the great and nobody else", although I am born in a Thenkalai family, it still pains me, as in a larger scheme, we should all follow Ramanuja, and Swami Desikan/Swami MM are representatives of Him, anyway, the elderly lady got offended!!! And her daughter was even more upset, let me not get to the details of our conversation. All I am asking is a vadakalai person to follow HER own sampradayam!!. > >This is the fate of our sampradayam, the fact that pains me the most is NOT MANY of Our AchAryAs of either school stretch the importance of ananya-bhakti, and Samashrayanam has become just a mere symbolic affair. Although I have my disagreements with ISKCON, I have seen the way the Gurus of ISKCON stress the importance of surrender ONLY to Lord Krishna while decrying demi-god or any other man-god, god-man etc worship, and in a way they inspire me a lot. Why can't we do that in our sampradayam?? Whom are we afraid of?? Why can't our AchAryAs say, "hey!! just worship Lord Sriman nArAyaNA and nobody else", why simply can't they?? > >First of all, charity begins at home; all of us who are convinced about the path of Sri Ramanuja, should STRESS the importance of our SiddhAnthA to all our near and dear ones, talk to them about importance of ananya bhakti, discourage them from worshipping anybody but Sriman nArAyANA. Also, learn from the ISKCON devotees. We should give up coffee/tea, onion and garlic, no questions asked. If a Russian or a Polish guy can give up everything and try to follow our sampradayam, why simply can't we?? Are we so shamelessly out-of-control that we can't give up these mundane addictions?? I for one, firmly believe in this: Even a little compromise leads to the greatest degeneration, as we can see what is happening now. > >I am not talking about leaving everything and going back to the villages. Lord Sri Krishna talks repeatedly about doing, nay, excelling in one's duty, but as an act of sacrifice to the Lord Himself. > >The problem is that we are not prepared to give up anything, not prepared to educate/get educated, but then we cry hoarse about the "degeneration of our sampradayam", or worse, jump at every chance to get into a "kalai" fight. > >Again, I got some mails saying that I insulted DEsika, etc.. No, never. All I am saying is that only should not blindly make statements without knowing the facts in-toto. My aim was to attack not the great Sri Desikan, not even the Vadakalai Sampradayam, but only the author whose words were filled with utter dichotomy, thinking that he can get away with whatever he says/writes. I would anyday take the association of a sincere Desika Sampradaya person than an also-ran Thenkalai Iyengar. > >Dasan, >Kidambi Soundararajan. > > > > > FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. Adiyen Ramanuja Dasan Gunaseelan Venkatachary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2005 Report Share Posted October 31, 2005 Dear Swamin Adiyen saw this definition in your posting that > What is our bench mark to evaluate the state of our sampradhayam? >One belongs to Srivaishnavam if one's objective is >Moksham (eternal bhagavath kainkaryam) and moksham >only. If someone is not with that objective how can we >say that they belong to our sampradhayam? In this >light, the experience swamin had with that lady, >singing about a baba or dhabha, she obviously is NOT >interested in moksham and interested in other >materialistic things. How can we say that she belongs >to our sampradhayam? These 'askthika nasthikas' should >simply be ignored as 'moorkas'. Why do we even >evaluate our sampradhayam based on these people? If >this is our bench mark, yes our sampradhayam is in a >bad state. depicts that those willing to attain Moksham are supposed to be called SriVaishnavas , Adiyen beg to differ He is Sarva Seshy , he cant differentiate btw Alwar and rest of the Seshas and He is every where and what not , if you look into Alwar Divya Prabhandams " avaravar iRayavar ena ady adayvargal , avaravar iRayavar kuraivilar iRaiyavar avaravar vidy vazhy adaya ninRanarE" in TVM 1st decade itself what does it mean ? does Alwar say that those worship other Gods are in lower rung compare to the so called SriVaishnavas. Also purushArtham for a SriVaishnava is certainly not Moksham , thats His Job , we are by swaroopam "Parathanthriyan" then how come we can choose our abode . Adiyen feel All are SriVaishnavA in the world "no difference" what they do . Simply because He is always with all JeevAthmAs and Sri as well (this is also Alwar's "eerach chol ") , so Adiyen humbly request you to not to make such difference amongst us . Adiyen Ramanuja Dasan Guna On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 Sampath Kumar Padmanaban wrote : >Sri: >Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha >Srimath Varavara Munaye Namaha > >Dear Sri.Soundararajan swamin, > >Kindly accept adiyen's pranams. Adiyen read your mails >with much more interest than most of the mails in this >forum. Swamin's focus and input on our sampradhayam >are much needed boost to elementary level students >like me. However, adiyen beg to differ with you that >our sampradhayam is in a bad state. Adiyen for once >feel confident that our sampradhayam is in a strong >state. However, the 'true membership' has dwindled. >Adiyen wish to present three points. > >1. What is our bench mark to evaluate the state of our >sampradhayam? >One belongs to Srivaishnavam if one's objective is >Moksham (eternal bhagavath kainkaryam) and moksham >only. If someone is not with that objective how can we >say that they belong to our sampradhayam? In this >light, the experience swamin had with that lady, >singing about a baba or dhabha, she obviously is NOT >interested in moksham and interested in other >materialistic things. How can we say that she belongs >to our sampradhayam? These 'askthika nasthikas' should >simply be ignored as 'moorkas'. Why do we even >evaluate our sampradhayam based on these people? If >this is our bench mark, yes our sampradhayam is in a >bad state. > >It is unneccesary for me to say that no one becomes a >SriVaishnava by birth, whatever is the family >background. After going through the samsaric cycle for >many many births and deaths, through bhaghavatha >sambhandham one gets acharya sambhandham. And >eventually acharya sambhandham leads us to maha >viswasam and finally to Emberuman sambhandham. And all >this happens by His nirhetuka krupai only. Adiyen >would view that lady's state as some one who is in >lower rung of this ladder and pray to Emberuman to >make her move faster. But I am not going to evaluate >our sampradhayam based on her, becuase there are >billions like her. > >2. Why are we in the state we are now? >Swamin raised a question that why can’t our acharyas >stress that we should worship ONLY Sriman nArAyaNA and >nobody else. But, it is beyond doubt and with >absolutely no uncertainty that our acharyas have >stressed this point. However, this message is not well >circulated amongst us. That is becuase our >poorvacharyas vyakyanams and exceptional works are in >a state not easily understandable by present >generation. For example, how many of the younger >generation today would even dare to open and read one >page of 'Edu' and try to understand? This is where the >success of ISKCON is obvious. Sri.Prabhupadha made >'all' of their sampradhaya messeges so easily >available in simple english. Adiyen personally know >many many gaudiya vaishnavas follow that sampradhayam >becuase it is presented to them in an easier way. > >There is a set of books called ‘Eettin Thamizhakkam’ >(meaning Edu in simple Thamizh). These books are >written by a scholar about 30 years before and >published by University of Madras in a set of 10 >volumes and provide ‘Edu’ in a simple Thamizh style. >However, this is not available any more. During my >last trip to India, I had to do lot of digging in >University book store to trace some of the volumes of >this book. I found few volumes with total damage lying >in a corner of the room on floor, where as mundane >novels are protected in moisture proof containers. >That is the state of our sampradhayam. So, our focus >must be on bringing in to light these kinds of works >more and more to lime light and strengthening our >foundation. May be even that lady would change. > >3. Why are we still arguing about our internal >differences? >Any sampradhayam is bound to have different view >points. As long as the fundamentals and final >objective are the same, these differences in approach >and practice must be viewed in a healthy and positive >way with mutual respect and cooperation. However, even >today in our sampradhayam, I see elders twice my age > from both the schools try to score victory over the >other as if this is a contest. If today’s elders >realize that even after one life time, they could not >dissolve the differences, at least they need not pass >it on to the next generation. May be over a period of >time these differences will die themselves. I don’t >want my grand son or grand daughter to be still >classified as some ‘kalai’ instead of simply >SriVaishnavas. > >Swamin, kindly accept adiyen’s apology for any >apacharams. It is not my intention to prove a point or >anything. Adiyen personally feel that if Emberuman >could choose even some one like me to surrender unto >him unconditionally, our sampradhayam is not in any >danger. Even though I am an elementary level student, >I am not young. I am almost 40 (half the well is >crossed) and still in a beginning state. May be that >is the state of our sampradhayam. > >Regards > >Adiyen >Ramanuja Dasan >Sampath Kumar Padmanaban > > >Azhwar Emberumanar Jeeyar Thiruvadigale Saranam >Jeeyar Thiruvadigale Saranam > > > > > FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. >http://farechase. > > > > >------------------------ Sponsor --------------------~--> >Get fast access to your favorite . Make your home page >http://us.click./dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/.itolB/TM >--~-> > >azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam > > Links > ><*> > ramanuja/ > ><*> > ramanuja > ><*> Your > > > > Adiyen Ramanuja Dasan Gunaseelan Venkatachary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2005 Report Share Posted October 31, 2005 I think you've gotten me wrong. You say teach the swaroopam. But, to "teach", one has to be in a position to teach. Like they say, "walk the talk". We have to elevate ourselves to a decent level before we start preaching. Do you think I can talk reason to the kind, old lady?? No, I don't want to waste my time. This is where the role of the AchAryan sets in, for she'd listen to her AchAryan that to me. The AchAryan needs to explicitly give instructions. Let us not confuse the concept of nirhEtukA kripa with mundane lifestyle. A human being should have principles. Our principles are laid down by the knowledgeable(parents/elders). We are taught not to steal, not to be violent, not eat meat etc, and we stick them as principles. As aspiring Sri VaishnavAs, our principles should be set to higher standards than the mundane, as laid down by our poorvAchAryAs. You said: >> "Adiyen wish to calrify my thougt process few , I could see that you wish to put certain hard followed conditions to the human beings , if I am correct , thats not the way, better way is to tell them whats with Him and try to get into the reason why she is praying Sai Baba , she is not that much foolish to pray them , she would have looked for some materialistic return and got it thru them , think about the pAsuram "Kama roopam Kondu ElunthalipAn " , its His leela"What we can make effort is to teach the swaroopam to them , see if you are so agitated now because you know the swaroopam "Ananya Seshathvam Kazhigy" , not many people are aware of such things . So in the practice what Adiyen observed is by putting any rules or regulations you cant change them unless you teach the swaroopa lakshanam to them " >> I didn't suggest that we should lay down any rules on regulations on that lady. We have to ensure that atleast from this point forward we can re-vitalize our sampradayam so that atleast our near-and-dear ones atleast don't end up as saibaba devotees. And to drive the point, we should try to ensure that our imperfections are minimal. You said: >> Why we should give up all these ? if you give up every thing are you sure of what r u supposed to get , Adiyen feel NO, these are not the upAyam, thats why our poorvAcharyas never dealt with what is your food habit, what are all the Vrudhams you should etc , these are pretty ritualistic in nature , to neechan like me I will think more on those prohibited items rather than Him >> I am totally surprised at this statement. You can please enjoy your onion sambhar, but kindly don't say it is fine. As it is not. In the Bhagawad Gita, Lord Krishna clearly says that a human being is characterized by the food that he eats. Before one starts preaching, he needs to ensure his moral standii. We follow the food practices for the following reasons: 1) They are not of the sattvic kind, and they are known to be sensual stimulants 2) Coffee/Tea are not to be drunk for the same reason that one shouldn't smoke/drink; caffeine is an addictive drug. 3) Above all, we don't offer these food types to the Lord, this is one of the main reasons. But, giving up Onion/Garlic is not the goal, for even monkeys are vegetarian. These are factors which are supposed to be hurdles to one's spiritual advancement. Can we talk about "Yathiraja Vimsati" to a young Sri Vaishnava with a strong garlic smell in the mouth?? As a young boy of 16, I was really unimpressed when I saw one of the Bhattars of the Tirumala Temple enjoying his meals at a local restaurant. As a novice (not even an aspirant then), that left a bad taste on my mind, and the same day I saw some nice ISKCON devotees displaying their top-most devotion (a westerner says he doesn't wear any shoes in Tirumala as it is Vaikuntham itself, and he won't eat food except than the one that is OFFERED to the lord, forget even onion/garlic). First of all, let us understand the meaning of the word, AchAryA. Means, "the one who leads by example". As the followers of the AchAryan, we are supposed to follow whatever he says/does. And the good AchAryan represents Swami Ramanuja and nobody else. If one is in an unforeseen circumstance, that is a different issue. But, to the maximum, we should REGULATE OURSELVES. It is a matter of convenience that our AchAryan doesn't state these explicitly, is it not?? Well, can I pillage or plunder and reason, "Well, my AchAryan doesn't say anything about it"?? Talking of degeneration, it is indeed sad that I have to even justify that the most rudimentary aspects of the Sri VaishnA lifestyle. Swami VedAnta dEsikan has explicitly mentioned the rules and regulations, including the food habits as well. If one says, "no, he is a VK achArya, hence I don't have to follow that", well, "God save the queen..." -Dasan. FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2005 Report Share Posted October 31, 2005 Dear Vimalkumar Ranganathan Swamy Agreed that these are to be taught by her Acharyan, as you know in this sphere where we are geographically apart , its pretty difficult for them as well to monitor and try to correct individuals, so Adiyen feel the facilitation should be done by others who are near by, to tell the correct thing, but if you feel you cant sell the concept due to various reasons , He only should find a way .. >Let us not confuse the concept of nirhEtukA kripa with mundane >lifestyle. A human being should have principles. Our principles are >laid down by the knowledgeable(parents/elders). We are taught not to >steal, not to be violent, not eat meat etc, and we stick them as >principles. As aspiring Sri VaishnavAs, our principles should be set >to higher standards than the mundane, as laid down by our >poorvAchAryAs. I am not clear why His KrupA cant stand with Mundane life style ? Also I am not sure what do you mean by aspiring SriVaishnava ? What is the standard we are talking about (as set by PoorvAcharyas)? If answers for all these are life styles , I am sorry I have diff of concept . What ever you do(whether its mindane or special Yagam etc) , its His sankalpa, you cant change it , also as I said in other mail as well He is very much related to ALL EQUALLY so am not clear what you wish to do xtra to become a SriVaishnava .. Adiyen Guna On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 vimalkumar ranganathan wrote : >Dear Sri Guna Swamin, > I think you've gotten me wrong. You say teach the swaroopam. But, to "teach", one has to be in a position to teach. Like they say, "walk the talk". We have to elevate ourselves to a decent level before we start preaching. Do you think I can talk reason to the kind, old lady?? No, I don't want to waste my time. This is where the role of the AchAryan sets in, for she'd listen to her AchAryan that to me. The AchAryan needs to explicitly give instructions. > Let us not confuse the concept of nirhEtukA kripa with mundane lifestyle. A human being should have principles. Our principles are laid down by the knowledgeable(parents/elders). We are taught not to steal, not to be violent, not eat meat etc, and we stick them as principles. As aspiring Sri VaishnavAs, our principles should be set to higher standards than the mundane, as laid down by our poorvAchAryAs. > >You said: > >> >"Adiyen wish to calrify my thougt process few , I could see that you wish to put certain hard followed conditions to the human beings , if I am correct , thats not the way, better way is to tell them whats with Him and try to get into the reason why she is praying Sai Baba , she is not that much foolish to pray them , she would have looked for some materialistic return and got it thru them , think about the pAsuram "Kama roopam Kondu ElunthalipAn " , its His leela" > >What we can make effort is to teach the swaroopam to them , see if you are so agitated now because you know the swaroopam "Ananya Seshathvam Kazhigy" , not many people are aware of such things . So in the practice what Adiyen observed is by putting any rules or regulations you cant change them unless you teach the swaroopa lakshanam to them " > >> > >I didn't suggest that we should lay down any rules on regulations on that lady. We have to ensure that atleast from this point forward we can re-vitalize our sampradayam so that atleast our near-and-dear ones atleast don't end up as saibaba devotees. And to drive the point, we should try to ensure that our imperfections are minimal. > >You said: > >> >Why we should give up all these ? if you give up every thing are you sure of what r u supposed to get , Adiyen feel NO, these are not the upAyam, thats why our poorvAcharyas never dealt with what is your food habit, what are all the Vrudhams you should etc , these are pretty ritualistic in nature , to neechan like me I will think more on those prohibited items rather than Him > >> > >I am totally surprised at this statement. You can please enjoy your onion sambhar, but kindly don't say it is fine. As it is not. In the Bhagawad Gita, Lord Krishna clearly says that a human being is characterized by the food that he eats. Before one starts preaching, he needs to ensure his moral standii. We follow the food practices for the following reasons: > >1) They are not of the sattvic kind, and they are known to be sensual stimulants >2) Coffee/Tea are not to be drunk for the same reason that one shouldn't smoke/drink; caffeine is an addictive drug. >3) Above all, we don't offer these food types to the Lord, this is one of the main reasons. > >But, giving up Onion/Garlic is not the goal, for even monkeys are vegetarian. These are factors which are supposed to be hurdles to one's spiritual advancement. Can we talk about "Yathiraja Vimsati" to a young Sri Vaishnava with a strong garlic smell in the mouth?? As a young boy of 16, I was really unimpressed when I saw one of the Bhattars of the Tirumala Temple enjoying his meals at a local restaurant. As a novice (not even an aspirant then), that left a bad taste on my mind, and the same day I saw some nice ISKCON devotees displaying their top-most devotion (a westerner says he doesn't wear any shoes in Tirumala as it is Vaikuntham itself, and he won't eat food except than the one that is OFFERED to the lord, forget even onion/garlic). > >First of all, let us understand the meaning of the word, AchAryA. Means, "the one who leads by example". As the followers of the AchAryan, we are supposed to follow whatever he says/does. And the good AchAryan represents Swami Ramanuja and nobody else. If one is in an unforeseen circumstance, that is a different issue. But, to the maximum, we should REGULATE OURSELVES. > >It is a matter of convenience that our AchAryan doesn't state these explicitly, is it not?? Well, can I pillage or plunder and reason, "Well, my AchAryan doesn't say anything about it"?? > >Talking of degeneration, it is indeed sad that I have to even justify that the most rudimentary aspects of the Sri VaishnA lifestyle. Swami VedAnta dEsikan has explicitly mentioned the rules and regulations, including the food habits as well. If one says, "no, he is a VK achArya, hence I don't have to follow that", well, "God save the queen..." > >-Dasan. > > > > > FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. Adiyen Ramanuja Dasan Gunaseelan Venkatachary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2005 Report Share Posted October 31, 2005 I am not a Sri Vaishnava, it is a great honor and state, I am aspiring to be one. I am not worthy of calling myself a Sri Vaishnava; this is how I'd categorize an "aspiring Sri Vaishnava". AzhwArs and AchAryAs are SrivaishnavAs. Swami MM was a SrivaishnavA; Sri nammAzhwAr says, "thamargaL thamargaL thamargaLAM...", that should be a Srivaishnava. I am not being judgemental, but let us not blame all our inabilities on Nirhetuka KripA. nirhetukA kripa means causeless mercy, that is when one surrenders, it is totally because of the Lord that he does. Now, ask for yourself, what should the saranagathan do? What should an aspiring saranagathan do??? Please answer the following questions with your understanding of "nirhetuka kripa": Can I go to a mundane masala movie filled with vulgarity and graphic violence?? Why not?? Can I practise polygamy?? Why not?? I loot $10,000 from work, and the same evening I chant the complete ThiruvAimozhi. Is that OK? I took part in the Upadesa Rathna Malai goshti today and had wonderful dinner at a veg/non-veg restaurant the same evening. Is that OK?? I am not saying Kripa can't stand mundane lifestyle. All I am saying is that mundane lifestyle should be atleast decently perfect enough for us to have a standing. I am saying just don't practice what shouldn't be and call it "Nirhetuka Kripa". Forget being a Srivaishnava, even to being a Vaishnava, Lord Krishna says in the Bhagavad GIta, "enquire from a knowledgeable guru", enquiry (not from a critical standpoint, but from a knowledge-seeking standpoint) is a must. That is the problem, all of us being born in Srivaishnava families take it for granted. Just learning the DP and not setting standards, watching SUNTV or whatever they show on the idiot box and if the children turn out to be least interested in anything spiritual, who is to be blamed?? Before you ask, I am not judgemental, "avaravar vidhi vazhi aday ninranarE". I am only talking to those who want to safeguard and expand our sampradayam. If the example of ISKCON where millions of people with the highest standards surrender to the Lord doesn't inspire us, I don;t know what else will. If it all comes down to just having onion/garlic, please go ahead and do so, I can even pay the bill for you. If we have pitfalls, we should be able to accept those and move on, but not legalize those in the name of nirhEtuka kripa, that becomes dangerous. -adiyen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 1, 2005 Report Share Posted November 1, 2005 Dear SrEvaishNavites, It is the hypocrisy that kills. If i belong to southern school of thought, let me at least follow that properly. dhEvathAnthram bhajanam on one hand and AzhwAr's pAsuram on the other -height of hypocrisy. I know people from both the shcool of thoughts, suddenly become sincere to their schools only when it comes to the marriage of their offspirngs and insist on 'thirumaN' kAppu- to the kailai they belong to. '' Otherwise, they neither normally recognise Sri VEdhAnha Desikan or Sri MaNavALa mAmunikaL. The first two questions have to be addressed: 1.When a person belonging to southern school of thought worships dhEvathAnthram-s does he have moral right to reject Sri VEdhAntha Desikan -Height of hyprocisy again? 2.In the same spirit, when a person belonging to northern shcool of thorught goes and falls at the feet of all and sundry, does he has the moral right to reject Sri PiLLai LokAchAryAr or MaNavALa mAmunikaL? 3. AzhwAr-s have clearly proclaimed and our rahasya granthangaL have toed the line, that one should not go for dhEvanthAnthram. Therefore, let us not in the name of nirhEthuhak kripai try to justify these acts. 4. Irrespective of the ultimate end, if one does not want nithya kainkaryam, and if one wishes for some material wishes - at least let them fall at the feet of Lord KrshNA. Perhaps, in due course this will change. 5. Yes our AchAryAs should be vociferous and telling while performing samAsrayanam in this regard. The message apparently is not getting conveyed and samAsryanam has become a mere ritual. As mentioned, the numbers do not matter, it the conviction that matters and the conviction should be born at the time of samAsrayanam at least, if not earlier. 6. Coming to the topic of discussion, thhough I agree by definition, they do not belong to srEvaishNavism by practice, is it not our AchAryAs role to reclaim them? 'payan anRAGilum pAngallanAgilum, seyal nanRAgath thriuthip paNi koLvAn" kaNNinuN siRuthAmbu 7. Yes, the sampradhayam books should be permeate more. I think and vEdhics are doing this to a great extent.That is indeed great. 8. I request you who are all in the know of things, to encourage our younger generations to open these grantham-s and start studying. Let them consult learned people and Acharyas and listen to upanyAsam cd-s. Kanchi swAmy's books are eternal treasures.Let them be made clear that these are not difficult to understand and is in the grasp of one and all. This change in the mindset from the elders is also required. ( the first counsel I got from many of my elders was - do not open srEvachana bhUshaNam and read. You will not understand This attitude should completely change) It is unfortunate that desisting from worshipping other deities is only an entrance test but the way argument goes, it is like becoming a final exam. 9. I think what Sri Kidambi SoundaraRajan wrote was out of feeling that, those belonging to srEvaishNavic lineage go astray. 'ezhuvAr-vidai koLvAr-yEn thuzhAn adiyEa vazhuvA vagai ninaindhu vaigal thozhuvArp-vinaich sudarai nandhuvikkum vEAnkaTamEA -vAnOar manach sudarai thUNdum malai" mudhal thiruvandhAdhi. 'mARRumOr dheivam vuNdenRu iruppArOAdu vuRRilEan, vuRRadhum vun adiyArkku adimai, maRRellAm pEASilum, nin thiruvettezhuthum kaRRu nAn - kaNNa purathuRai ammAnEA' Periya ThriuzMozhi 8-10-3; Thanks a lot. dAsan vanamamalai padmanabhan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 1, 2005 Report Share Posted November 1, 2005 Dear Sri Sampathkumar Swamin, While I am thankful for your kind words, let me please mention that I am a nobody in front of people like Sri TCA Swamin, Sri Padmanabhan Swamin, Sri Sadagopan Iyengar or Sri Madhavakkannan Swamin. In fact, I consider Sri TCA Swamin to be one of my gurus as it was his acharya.org website that kindled my strong interest in the sampradayam. I request every member of this forum to visit the website and read all the contents. Talking of the degeneration, I just saw one of the venerated "Sri Vaishnava" scholars addressing Muruga as "MAL marugan". What can I say!! I openly welcome your comments, but kindly allow me to address those. Quote >>However, adiyen beg to differ with you thatour sampradhayam is in a bad state. Adiyen for oncefeel confident that our sampradhayam is in a strongstate. However, the 'true membership' has dwindled.Adiyen wish to present three points. >> End quote. Well, I speak for our whole Sri sampradayam in general, I hate to differentiate between rAmAnuja/dEsika sampradayams at this juncture. Well, kindly look at all the languishing divyadesams or even look at the current interest of the present crop of "Iyengars". True, lack of encouragement from the rulers as in those days started to dwindle and hence forced our forefathers start looking for materialistic pursuits, and the trend continued and as generation passed on, we have people with Srivaishnava names doing anything bhagawath kainkaryams. I think it is for everyone to see, how many of our cousins/friends are even interested in our sampradayam, or can even chant the SrisailEsa mantram completely? Well, I don't have to reiterate the number of times we've seen the so-called Srivaishnava priests doing totally unwarranted acts. We have pan-parag chewing priests, cigarrette-smoking "vAdhiyArs", and ofcourse "Srivaishnava" Bhattars of our temples sporting "Sabarimala" attires. Not to forget the Saibabas and Kalki bhagawans in our midst. I strongly believe that if there is not an overhaul to be done, our sampradayam will be reduced a bunch of ritualistic brahmins who perform ceremonies for money. >> You said.1. What is our bench mark to evaluate the state of oursampradhayam?One belongs to Srivaishnavam if one's objective isMoksham (eternal bhagavath kainkaryam) and mokshamonly. If someone is not with that objective how can wesay that they belong to our sampradhayam? In thislight, the experience swamin had with that lady,singing about a baba or dhabha, she obviously is NOTinterested in moksham and interested in othermaterialistic things. How can we say that she belongsto our sampradhayam? These 'askthika nasthikas' shouldsimply be ignored as 'moorkas'. Why do we evenevaluate our sampradhayam based on these people? Ifthis is our bench mark, yes our sampradhayam is in abad state. It is unneccesary for me to say that no one becomes aSriVaishnava by birth, whatever is the familybackground. After going through the samsaric cycle formany many births and deaths, through bhaghavathasambhandham one gets acharya sambhandham. Andeventually acharya sambhandham leads us to mahaviswasam and finally to Emberuman sambhandham. And allthis happens by His nirhetuka krupai only. Adiyenwould view that lady's state as some one who is inlower rung of this ladder and pray to Emberuman tomake her move faster. But I am not going to evaluateour sampradhayam based on her, becuase there arebillions like her. >> End quote. I agree with you totally in this regard. I don't want to refer that lady as a Srivaishnava. My bad. An "Iyengar" is not a Srivaishnava. Only a person surrendered to RAmAnuja is a Srivaishnava. This is my understanding. You said >>2. Why are we in the state we are now?Swamin raised a question that why can’t our acharyasstress that we should worship ONLY Sriman nArAyaNA andnobody else. But, it is beyond doubt and withabsolutely no uncertainty that our acharyas havestressed this point. However, this message is not wellcirculated amongst us. That is becuase ourpoorvacharyas vyakyanams and exceptional works are ina state not easily understandable by presentgeneration. For example, how many of the youngergeneration today would even dare to open and read onepage of 'Edu' and try to understand? This is where thesuccess of ISKCON is obvious. Sri.Prabhupadha made'all' of their sampradhaya messeges so easilyavailable in simple english. Adiyen personally knowmany many gaudiya vaishnavas follow that sampradhayambecuase it is presented to them in an easier way. There is a set of books called ‘Eettin Thamizhakkam’(meaning Edu in simple Thamizh). These books arewritten by a scholar about 30 years before andpublished by University of Madras in a set of 10volumes and provide ‘Edu’ in a simple Thamizh style.However, this is not available any more. During mylast trip to India, I had to do lot of digging inUniversity book store to trace some of the volumes ofthis book. I found few volumes with total damage lyingin a corner of the room on floor, where as mundanenovels are protected in moisture proof containers.That is the state of our sampradhayam. So, our focusmust be on bringing in to light these kinds of worksmore and more to lime light and strengthening ourfoundation. May be even that lady would change. >> End quote. Well, if our AchAryAs (not the poorvAchAryAs, but the current initiating achAryAs) to give clean instructions, why do we have the so-called SrivaishnavAs doing non-sensical things EVEN after samAshrayanam?? For example, the lady I mentioned had already taken SamAshrayanam. Likewise, if you look around, you cannot see many people practising standards that are expected from a prapanna. Strictly speaking, people having taken samashrayanam should not even eat outside, is it the real case?? You said>> 3. Why are we still arguing about our internaldifferences?Any sampradhayam is bound to have different viewpoints. As long as the fundamentals and finalobjective are the same, these differences in approachand practice must be viewed in a healthy and positiveway with mutual respect and cooperation. However, eventoday in our sampradhayam, I see elders twice my agefrom both the schools try to score victory over theother as if this is a contest. If today’s eldersrealize that even after one life time, they could notdissolve the differences, at least they need not passit on to the next generation. May be over a period oftime these differences will die themselves. I don’twant my grand son or grand daughter to be stillclassified as some ‘kalai’ instead of simplySriVaishnavas. >> End quote. I totally agree this TK/Vk fight is a useless waste of time when one considers that both the schools are facing erosion. As for me personally, I don't care for these kalais, etc. Yet, I do love Swami MM and PL a lot and would do anything to defend their greatness, that was why I was hard on my mail discussing Anbil Swamin. Few people realize that without Swami PL or MM, Srirangam would've become another al-aqsa by now. You said >> Swamin, kindly accept adiyen’s apology for anyapacharams. It is not my intention to prove a point oranything. Adiyen personally feel that if Emberumancould choose even some one like me to surrender untohim unconditionally, our sampradhayam is not in anydanger. Even though I am an elementary level student,I am not young. I am almost 40 (half the well iscrossed) and still in a beginning state. May be thatis the state of our sampradhayam. >> End quote Swamin, age is nothing but a number. It is never too late, especially when one just wants to surrender to Sri emperumAnAr. Even ajAmilan was saved by the Lord when he was at his deathbed. He was a sinner even until that moment. Dasan, KidAmbi Soundararajan. Azhwar Emberumanar Jeeyar Thiruvadigale Saranam FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.http://farechase. FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 1, 2005 Report Share Posted November 1, 2005 SRIMATHE RAMANUJAYA NAMAHA. Memories of the famous singer Smt Aruna sairam come to my mind when I read about that lady in the temple (described in this thread) involved in singing. Losing oneself in singing His praise can have only one name – bhakti. That lady has had bhakti as means and bhakti as end. Only that her guide is Saibaba!! Reading all that flowed as a result, I can not but have to get reminded of the story of the yogi who was obsessed with the way a woman in a nearby place lived, only to see her to be taken to heavens (after death) in an edifying way and himself taken in a way that is otherwise! I think there is something drastically missing in the way how we have to understand our sampradaya. -Jayasree saranathan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2005 Report Share Posted November 2, 2005 srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha srImadh varavara munayE namaha Dear Sri Vimalkumar, Your questions are very valid, logical and practical. However I am attempting to answer them to the extent I have learnt and understood. I request all others to correct me wherever I am wrong. 1. You said "nirhetukA kripa means causeless mercy, that is when one surrenders, it is totally because of the Lord that he does". This itself is contradictory. You agree that it is causeless and also say that it happens ONLY when one does the act of Surrender. Aren't these contradictory as, when one does the act of surrender and He accepts it, it becomes a cause. 2. To answer your questions on whether one can go to a masala movie et al, the answer is No. But wait, nirhEtuka krupA means, He will shower His grace even on people who do this without realising it. A realised soul (Even here the realisation is due to Him as said by nammAzhwAr ".....un manatthAl en ninaindhirundhAi", ".....aRiyAkkAlathuL aDimaikkaN anbu seidhu" etc), will never indulge in such activities. Rather, he will indulge in activities like ".........therithezhudhi vAsitthum, kEttum, vaNangi vazhipattum, poositthum, pOkinEn pOdhu". One cannot, rather should not, be saying that he is going to a masala movie because of His nirhEtuka krupa. 3. We are not doing all those movie watching etc, due to His nirhEtuka krupA, but due to our ignorance. But due to His nirhEtuka krupA, He forgives the sins of a soul, (actually, He even takes the sins as His bhOgyam as per Sri aruLaLa perumAL emberumAnAr in his gnyAna-sAram and pramEya-saram)and make it a realised one and take it into His abode from where there is no return. THIS IS THE RIGHT EXPLANATION OF NIRHETUKA KRUPA. 4. On the other hand, if we are to question that, whether such an act on the part of emberumAn towards a soul, which is a sinner, is not wrong and sends wrong signals to every one to indulge in unlawful activites, the answer is no. Because He is the owner of the soul and He has the ultimate right to do whatever He wants. We on our part are only slaves and do not have the rights or authority to question His act. Then where is the question? It is like this, if a watch of ours is malfunctioning, we are at liberty to either rectify it and use it again or just throw it. He we are the master and the watch is a slave, & where is the question of the watch asking you, why are you doing like this. This is the true swaroopam of a prapannA, which is called pArathanthriyam. Likewise, our PoorvAchAryAs have said that the true characteristic of a prapannA is that he should be like the achit, that is the watch in the analogy above. I feel, I may have answered your question to the feeblest of my knowledge. I request, once again, to correct me wherever I am wrong. AzhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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