Desikan - Thenkalai etc.

[Guest guest]

sri:

Srimathe Ramanujaya Nama:

 

You raise valid questions, but these type of emotional quesions

are better answered over the phone or better yet in person.

[30 minutes and a open mind will anyone to

see the beauty of Sri Ramanuja Sampradayam]

 

However, adiyen will try to answer your questions:

[Read with open mind and genuine interest in learning the truth]

 

ramanuja, Sadagopan Vasudevan <satakopanv@g...> wrote:

>

> Dear Friends:

> I am seeing many versions of this story.

 

POINT 1

=========

Any thing we say should be based on purvacharyas works and purvacharyas works

only,

when we do that we have only one version, one voice and one message.

 

Anytime people start writing anything on their own, without repeating

purvacharyas words,

it causes what you see today multiple versions.

 

Some of the newer stories floated and their modifications every decade

are not based on Purvacharyas.

 

Now am i saying this on my own or using purvacharyas words?

=========================================================

munnOr mozhintha * muRai thappAmal kEttu *

pinnOrnthu thAm athanaip pEsAthE ** - tham nenjchil

thORRinathE solli * ithu suththa upathEsavara

vARRathenbar * mUrkkarAvAr [Pasuram 71: Upadesa Rattina

malai]

 

 

Those who do not learn the message through the acharya from the authentic

lineage (OranVazhi Sampradaya),

and pass the message as exactly taught to them,

But instead pass meanings that come to their mind (i.e they do not repeat

Purvacharyas)

Yet they justify that this is what purvacharyas have said - Such people are

foolish themselves.

(Bigger damage is done to community as others may think they are genuine as they

look and talk like authentic followers of OranVazhi.)

 

So how do you know the differrence, if the words of purvacharyas is repeated,

then they are genuine, if not they are foolish and they are making others who

read/ follow them also foolish.

 

Look at some of the recent books released, and the one that is being

debated here. If you find exacle purvacharys words repeted (with ref. to pasuram

vyakhyanam etc..)

then you know you got a genuine one, else they are self made material

(these self made books and material, may have 80 to 90% good and +ve material

but the other

small percentage of incorrect material would do more harm than)

 

> If indeed the stories by Anbil at the link is wrong, and if indeed many

> others have used the same (fromk 3000 padi and not 6000 padi)

> then why have the other scholars from Thenkalai side not

> protested this at all. (That tell me this may be true)

 

See POINT 1 above, if its true then it will be repeating Purvacharyas

(not self interpretations)

 

 

> q1: Even today why do the leaders of Thenkalai not protest this?

 

Many Acharyas have protested and written but after a while they give us

on such people (since they realize these individuals are not sleeping

but just acting like they are asleep: Meaning they know what they

are doing is wrong and still continue it )

 

Great Acharyas like HH Sriman Narayana Jeeyar swami

have written asking the mis-inoformers to stop,

HH even posted on on lists, (the message was NOT approved)

 

If a person is not willing to listen to HH Ramanuja Jeeyar Swami,

do you think they are willing to listen to others.

 

Here is an excerpt from the mail of HH Ramanuja Jeeyar Swami

This message was not approved on list.

But it was approved on HH's list: :

/message/989

 

=====Jetusa message# 989 =====

Better to understand the right things and inform. If

it is only for your own enjoyment, you do whatever you

wish. But when we inform to others, we should be very

correct for ourselves. Otherwise, that becomes

irrepairable damage and thus an inexcusable sin to

pu:rva:charyas. We hope you try to understand.

 

=chinnajeeyar=

 

===================================================

 

> q2: Others from this group have written to me saying that

> Desikan is thenkalai only, but got "hijkacked" by brahminical

> Vaishanvas to be their sole leader about 200 years ago,

> and then started all the conversions.

 

Today:

Thenkalai - More emphasis on Sri Vaishnavam

Vadakalai - More emphasis on Brahminism

 

Purvahcaryas NEVER used the word Thenkalai/ Vadakalai

in their works or even referred to it.

Swamin Desikan never referred to any kalais in any of his works

Neither did all the Purvacharyas in OranVazhi.

 

There was only Ramanuja Sampradayam till 1750 for sure.

(You may want to refer to Koil Olugus of Thiurmalai and Srirangam for

reference.)

 

Some brahminical oriented devotees, did not like the direction set by

Sri Pillai Lokachar and Mamunikal. (More emphasis on Sri Vaishnavathvam

thus allowing samashreyanam to all people regardless of caste.).

These few brahminical devotees drifted apart, this differrence became

bigger and bigger to the point that a seperate sampradayam got formed.

 

Until 1750 CE, you cannot see any documented Bharanyasam as is being

followed today in the Vadakalai Sampradayam.

If Vadakalai Sampradayam says they follow Swami Desikan, then please

follow him fully. He did not undergo a seperate ritual (After samashreyaanm)

called bharanyasam, neither the his famous Son, or PB Anna his famous disciple.

 

Also until a few generations ago Vadakalai acharyas did not perform

intitiation (samashreyanam) for Non-Brahmins.

 

Hence, Swami Desikan also lived and practiced Ramanuja Sampradayam only,

and did not intend to create a new one called Desika Sampradayam,

 

> If you Think logically, Swami Desikan is in almost all the

> temples including srirangam. Everywhere he is Vadakalai only,

> so you have to accept what you see.

 

If you read the history of Desikan Sannidhi in Srirangam,

any Devotee of Desikan would cry.

The original Vigraham was mutilated to change the thiruman to

suit the whim of one group of people,

this left marks on the forehead of the great Desika,

hence that desika was removed and new one installed with

the Thiruman of their choice.

(Which shows clearly the ones who did this do not love

Desikan, but are fanatic about the Thiruman on the Forehead.)

 

The truth is known to many, but mis-information will

only make the matters worse.

=================================================

[Guest guest]

srImathE rAmAnujAya namah

 

ramanuja, Sadagopan Vasudevan <satakopanv@g...>

wrote:

> If you Think logically, Swami Desikan is in almost all the

> temples including srirangam. Everywhere he is Vadakalai only,

> so you have to accept what you see.

 

I am just pointing out a factual error above - In the following

temples, svAmi vEdAnta dEsikan is present today, and is present with

the thenkalai thirumaN -

 

(i) thiru-alli-k-kENi

(ii) srIperumbUdUr

 

adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan,

varadhan

[Guest guest]

I strongly Oppose the words you used :

=================Quote :

Until 1750 CE, you cannot see any documented Bharanyasam as is being followed

today in the Vadakalai Sampradayam.

He did not undergo a seperate ritual (After samashreyaanm)

called bharanyasam, neither the his famous Son, or PB Anna his famous disciple

========================End Quote =================

How many "Brahminical Devotees "-as you told (in your words)you know? There are

1000nds of "Brahminical Devotees" living in this world. You may knowing only

FEW or 100 people .They may be wrong .But you cannot tell all the people

"Braminical Devotees" are doing wrong

On what BAsis you are telling thses poor " brahmincal devotees" are not follwing

Swami desikan Fully ???YOU MUST EXPLAIN>

Secondly I kindly infor you that Swami Desikan Prformed Self >Saranagathi Like

Sri UDayaver did in front of Lord Varadharaja.

I dont know wether you know this or not BUT LORD VARADHA RAJA AND PERUNDEVI THAYAR KNOWS this.

(reference:please read Adaikalapatthu -saranagathi made by Swami Desikan)

Third thing Have you ever sseen Swmi Desikan Vigraha in ThiriVaheendipuram? It

was made By Swami itself.In that you can see VAdakalai Thiruman very clearly.

=======================================================

And finaly Adiyen like to tell you some thing abt me.

Am I am froma middle class family Born to very bakthi full parents.Now adiyen is

living in Thiruallikeni under the nirhedua kripa of Sri Parthasarathy swami and

Thellia singa perumal.

Adiyen got a dream (at the age of 7)where Lord Venkateswara appeared in adiyans

dream and he promised me that HE WILL NEVER LEAVE ME (Naan unnai sathyama

kaivida maaten)

Aduyen had lots and lots of divine experiences in my life till this age(25). And

even in adiyens dream (many many times Thellia

Why I am telling this is not to advertise myself. I am like the worm in the

shit. But adiyen like to tell you ONLY ONE THING.

even a shit worm like me has great devotion on Swami Desika, think abt of lots

and lots of Srivaishnavas who think Swami Desikan as their soul.

I respect you very much as you are doing lots of kainkaryams .So you shl d NOT

LEAVE this oppurtunity by doing any APACHARAMS,

======================================================

Adiyen

SRI SWAMI DESIKAN THIRUVADI THIRUTHUGALGAL DASAN,

VivekhSarman

[Guest guest]

srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha

srImadh varavara munayE namaha

 

Dear Sri Sadagopan,

 

I will attempt to answer your questions to the extent of my

knowledge based on Acharyas works.

 

============Quote=============

 

ramanuja, Sadagopan Vasudevan

<satakopanv@g...> wrote:

>

> Dear Friends:

> I am seeing many versions of this story.

>

> If indeed the stories by Anbil at the link is wrong, and if indeed

many

> others have used the same (fromk 3000 padi and not 6000 padi)

> then why have the other scholars from Thenkalai side not

> protested this at all. (That tell me this may be true)

>

> q1: Even today why do the leaders of Thenkalai not protest this?

 

==========Unquote===================

You may want to go through the lots of books published by

Swami Annangarachariar, Sri Puttur Krishnamachariar Swamy, Sri MA

Venkatakrishnan Swamy and Srivaishnavasri Krishnamachariar swamy. If

you had, then you will not exhibit your ignorance by asking the

above question. This just the right example to "Kinatru Tavalai".

Knowing only one side and exhibiting the ignorance. Sorry this

ignorance is not a Bliss.

 

============Quote==================

> q2: Others from this group have written to me saying that

> Desikan is thenkalai only, but got "hijkacked" by brahminical

> Vaishanvas to be their sole leader about 200 years ago,

> and then started all the conversions.

>

> If you Think logically, Swami Desikan is in almost all the

> temples including srirangam. Everywhere he is Vadakalai only,

> so you have to accept what you see.

>

> What is your pramana for this? that Swami Desikan in Thenkalai ?

===========Unquote==================

 

Good. Please note that the Thiruman became synonymous with the Kalai

bEdham at a later date. Also once again I am sorry to say that you

have only exhibited your state that you are not exposed to the

writings of the Thenkalais at all.

Plrase read the recent publications from the Author of Panchajanyam

magazine, Sri Krishnamachariar swamy, title the "Koil Ozhugu- Part

3", in which he clearly proves, along with the court records that

Sri Desikar in Srirangam was adorning only Thenkalai Thiruman and

later, the original thirumEni has be replaced by the

current only with Vadagalai thiruman, puporting the original one to

lost.

 

Also how many records do you want to prove that Sri Desikar sannidhi

in his avathara sthalam, Thoopul, was indeed Thenkalai and he was

adorning only the thenkalai thiruman in Thoopul, and conveniently

converted to present day Vadagalai thiruman. Sri PBA Swamy has

published numerous articles on this. If you would like to see it,

please do let me know. I have a copy of this article and I can

courier this to you.

 

And lastly, let me close with one thing, as another member Sri BR

Parthasarathy wrote, during Sri Emberumanar's time, there was only

one thiruman. Needless to say that it is the current day Thenkalai

thiruman. However, there were people with kalai bhEdams in their

mind. One giving highest importance to nirhEtuka kripA and the other

refuting this. This, difference in the due course took the form of

Kalai bhEdham and have evolved into the present day vadagalai and

thenkalai. A standing testimony to this is that almost all the

divyadEsams, which practically adorn a thirumaN,are thenkalai

barring a few, recently converted ones, 10 or 11 vadakalai.

Thirumans.

 

DEAR MODERATOR: PLEASE APPROVE THESE ANSWERS AS WELL. AS THESE ARE

THE ULTIMATE FACTS.

 

AzhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam

adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan

Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh

[Guest guest]

learned members, if I am wrong please correct me

 

Regards,

Venkatakrishnan

 

PS; I am not rising this point to hurt Sri Vivek or anybody, this is just to get clarified.

s vivek <krs_vivek > wrote:

I strongly Oppose the words you used :=================Quote :Until 1750 CE, you

cannot see any documented Bharanyasam as is being followed today in the

Vadakalai Sampradayam.He did not undergo a seperate ritual (After

samashreyaanm)called bharanyasam, neither the his famous Son, or PB Anna his

famous disciple========================End Quote =================How many

"Brahminical Devotees "-as you told (in your words)you know? There are 1000nds

of "Brahminical Devotees" living in this world. You may knowing only FEW or 100

people .They may be wrong .But you cannot tell all the people "Braminical

Devotees" are doing wrong On what BAsis you are telling thses poor " brahmincal

devotees" are not follwing Swami desikan Fully ???YOU MUST EXPLAIN>Secondly I

kindly infor you that Swami Desikan Prformed Self

>Saranagathi Like Sri UDayaver did in front of Lord Varadharaja.I dont know

wether you know this or not BUT LORD VARADHA RAJA AND PERUNDEVI THAYAR KNOWS

this.(reference:please read Adaikalapatthu -saranagathi made by Swami

Desikan)Third thing Have you ever sseen Swmi Desikan Vigraha in

ThiriVaheendipuram? It was made By Swami itself.In that you can see VAdakalai

Thiruman very

clearly.=======================================================And finaly

Adiyen like to tell you some thing abt me.Am I am froma middle class family

Born to very bakthi full parents.Now adiyen is living in Thiruallikeni under

the nirhedua kripa of Sri Parthasarathy swami and Thellia singa perumal.Adiyen

got a dream (at the age of 7)where Lord Venkateswara appeared in adiyans dream

and he promised me that HE WILL NEVER LEAVE ME (Naan unnai sathyama kaivida

maaten)Aduyen had lots and lots of divine

experiences in my life till this age(25). And even in adiyens dream (many many times Thellia

FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.

[narasimhan thathachari]

But desikan wrote "sachharitha raksha" to raksha the namam that is oordhava punram(the namam which which is facing upper side)

[narasimhan thathachari]

@ vinjimoor swami: sorry to say this. u know the fact till 1853 the emperanur holy birth place that is sriperumbudur itself vadagalai divyadesams. then how u saying that the ramanuja is tenkalai. this is clearly refered in court decrees also. y no manavalamamuni is present inside the temple any where.

u people saying srirangam is manavalamani holy place in that itself the manavalamamuni not present inside the temple and with out mariyadai.

in srivilliputur he is not participating in pagslpathu and raapathu also y. for him only the aandal wait for a one day for neeratu utsavam. this itself shows only oneKALAI is there during ramanujar period .but after manavalamamuni only tengalai arose to disturb vadagalai.

[Rangarajan Ramanujam]

Thathachari Swamin- Then why Srirangam and Other key Divyadesams are with Thengalai Thiruman when Emperumanar had followed vadakalai. You are not getting apachara for Mamuni only, by giving such quotes we are getting apachara from Emperuman(ar) also.