Reg. Gayathri Mantram and ISKCON

January 8, 2006

initiation for ladies and ladies chanting Gayathri in ISKCON - I don't know if

it is western influence, or implicitly vEdic. I would love to be corrected on

this regard. 2) Worse, many of our "Iyengars" take "initiation" from

western-born SwAmis and Goswamis of ISKCON - thus symbolically relegating all

their responsibilities to our Ramanuja Matham, sporting the Gopi Chandanam

which is different from Sri Vaishnava sampradayam. Worse, I know of so-called

SrivaishnavAs who sport fantastic thirumaN during socio-religious occasions but

immediately revert to the Gopi-Chandanam at home - which reflects the pitiable

condition of our sampradayam. Also, I can't understand the logic beyond young

unmarried males/females from Srivaishnava families being "initiated" in ISKCON,

thus accepting Gaudiya Sampradayam. I once asked a very nice ISKCON sannyasi

about the same - if they respect Srivaishnavism so much, why should they

initiate disciples from SV, instead of just asking them to just follow the

Srivaishnava Matham? His answer was, disciples even from Srivaishnava families

unconditionally surrender to Him explaining their lack of interest in SV, he

initiates them only then. I couldn't doubt Him. 3) Granted, there are many

positively influential points in ISKCON that we learn from - food-style,

commitment, etc. Unfortunately we are losing many of our brethen - young and

old alike to a different sampradayam with philosophies and practices orthogonal

to ours. Dasan, Kidambi Soundararajan.

January 10, 2006

and the Gopi goes, before thiruman during the times of ram and Krsna they wore

only sandal on their heads. This was taught to me by one SESHADRI swami during

my pratmic class. 4. Yes we have to save our culture as it explains the

travails of the sould from the Jada jivan to this level. This way of living and

culture needs to be preserved by explaining the significance of each of our

rituals as that alsone can make our sampradayam sustain. PLS DO CORRECT IF I

AM WRONG PARTLY OR FULLY. DASAN/raghavanvimalkumar ranganathan

<panardasan > wrote: SrI: Dear Sri Mohan Swamin,

Whilst your points are indeed effective, I would like to ramble

a couple of my thoughts, as somebody who had been deeply attached to ISKCON in

the past: 1) When it is accepted that becoming a Vaishnava is paramount and

not the varna-affiliation, I am not able to reconcile with the fact that ISKCON

gives "brahmana initiation" to all and sundry (including Women!!!) which has no

prior vedic pramanas, even in our Sampradayam, our AchAryAs never tampered with

the varna system, granted they made it a strong point that being a Srivaishnava

is more important. Brahmana initiation for ladies and ladies chanting Gayathri

in ISKCON - I don't know if it is western influence, or implicitly vEdic. I

would love to be corrected on this regard. 2) Worse, many of our "Iyengars"

take "initiation" from western-born SwAmis and Goswamis of ISKCON - thus

symbolically relegating all their responsibilities to our Ramanuja Matham,

sporting the Gopi Chandanam which is different from Sri Vaishnava sampradayam.

Worse, I know of so-called SrivaishnavAs who sport fantastic thirumaN during

socio-religious occasions but immediately revert to the Gopi-Chandanam at home

- which reflects the pitiable condition of our sampradayam. Also, I can't

understand the logic beyond young unmarried males/females from Srivaishnava

families being "initiated" in ISKCON, thus accepting Gaudiya Sampradayam. I

once asked a very nice ISKCON sannyasi about the same - if they respect

Srivaishnavism so much, why should they initiate disciples from SV, instead of

just asking them to just follow the Srivaishnava Matham? His answer was,

disciples even from Srivaishnava families unconditionally

surrender to Him explaining their lack of interest in SV, he initiates them only

then. I couldn't doubt Him. 3) Granted, there are many positively

influential points in ISKCON that we learn from - food-style, commitment, etc.

Unfortunately we are losing many of our brethen - young and old alike to a

different sampradayam with philosophies and practices orthogonal to ours.

Dasan, Kidambi Soundararajan.

Photos Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP.

January 10, 2006

Dear members,

I would like to clear up a couple of points that I made in my

original mail on this subject, and to clarify my intention for

posting it.

My purpose was to highlight the differences in approach of the

two sampradaayams in giving gaayatri initiation - prompted by Sriman

Pritesh's insight that gaayatri initiation is only given through 'a

bona fide guru'. I was not trying to read in any Vaishnava

significance to the Gaayatri mantra, merely pointing out the

different approach that two different Vaishnava sampradaayas have on

it (we could have replaced 'Shaiva' or 'Smaarta' with 'Vaishnava'

there).

As a side comment, I noted that those who are given gaayatri

initiation in the Gaudiya tradition seem to treat it a lot more

seriously than many of our own 'birth brahmins'/'Iyengars'.

In relation to this I noticed there were a number of points

made about the Gaudiya sampradaaya's use of Gaayatri:

'I am not sure how or why the Gayatri mantra found its way into

ISKCON' - Sriman Mohan Sagar,

'ISKCON gives "brahmana initiation" to all and sundry' - Sriman

Kidambi Soundararajan,

'I dont think they make evrybody brahmins...Only difference is

the initiation of women which is purely a retrogade step and they

will learn by themselves' - Sriman Vijaya Raghavan

Regarding all these, I understand (and share) the deep

attachment we all will have to Sri Sampradaayam. But some of the

above statements could be taken as being unfairly harsh to the

Gaudiya Vaishnava sampradaayam. Granted, I have often found myself

disagreeing with some of Gaudiya sampradaayam's views but I have

come to respect their stance on these issues. Let me explain why:

Sriman Mohan, as to why ISKCON has adopted use of the gaayatri

mantra, I am sure anyone who asks them will know that they see

themselves as a fully Vaidika sampradaayam. Anyone who has closely

observed an ISKCON worship service will notice that their poojaris

(often non-Indians, who have been given yagnyopaveetam) do recite

vedic mantras during worship including Purusha suukta, Vishnu suukta

and others, and if you ask them about their practice you will find

that they do in fact perform trikaala sandhyaavandanam. This isn't

just my guess, I happen to have discussed these issues in detail a

couple of times with a prominent Gaudiya Vaishnava academic in the

UK who also performs priestly duties for many Indian Hindu

families.

Any student of Gaudiya sampradaayam will also know that they

don't to the 'birth' based view of varna prevalent in Sri

sampradaayam - hence their giving of yagnyopaveetam to non-birth

brahmins. Your observation that the chanting of Vedas is restricted

by birth may be the understanding of most Sri Vaishnava acharyas,

but I think we should respect the strongly held conviction of the

Gaudiyas on this. They too will be able to quote vedic pramaaNam

stating that 'individuals displaying the required characterists are

eligible for gaayatri'. Any further discussion of this would

probably spiral into the caste-by-birth-or-qualities debate which

has happened too many times on other lists. My point is that

recitation of Gaayatri and Vedas has a very secure, and sampradaayic

position in ISCKON which we should respect.

Sriman Kidambi Soundararajan, you lament that they give gaayatri

initiation to 'all-and-sundry'. I can tell you that the gentleman I

mentioned above is probably more strict than any brahmin in my

family. He does three times daily gaayatri, doesn't eat non-

saattvik food, gets up at Brahma muhuurtam - what percentage

of 'birth brahmins' do all of that nowadays? And what's more they

are tested severely before being accepted for gaayatri initiation,

and it is only a small fraction of people who are actually given

yagnyopaveetam, not all devotees as you may have thought. They are

definitely not indiscriminate.

I think we should be more worried about the fact that a huge

percentage of the birth brahmins given 'pooNal' these days just do

it as a social function, with no intention of ever performing

sandhyaavandanam or chanting gaayatri. We surely all know people

who fall into this category - I myself was one once upon a time.

Which is greater apachaaram to the Holy Vedas - teaching it to

people who might be 'forbidden' but have the enthusiasm to learn it -

or teaching it to people, who are 'allowed' to learn it but have

no real interest in respecting it? It's a tough question I agree.

It is also a two-edged sword, if we accept our birth status, we

have to also acknowledge that we can fall from it, according to

dharmashaastras. The learned members will know that so many of us

will not even qualify for being brahmins any more, despite our

birth, due to some transgression of some dharmashaastra rule or

another (take a look at Manu Smriti!). Again, discussion of this

could descend into the old caste debate, but as far as it's relation

to the topic of gaayatri and ISCKON, my point is to note the

*colossal* respect they afford to gaayatri. Rest assured that those

in ISCKON who do receive gaayatri (whether men or women) do it after

a lot of serious thought, introspection and self-discipline -

probably much more than the vast majority of Iyengar/Iyer/Smaartha

boys these days. So please let us be less judgemental of their

sampradaayam which has its own philosophy, history and tradition -

regardless of whether we agree with them or not.

namO nArAyaNAya

aaNDaaL tiruvaDigaLE sharaNam

with praNaamams, apologies for any offences

sarvAparAdhAn kShamasva

Ranjan

January 11, 2006

sri rama jayam

srimathe ramanujaya namaha

namaskaram to all.

i think this is my first mail in this forum after being a member for

more than 3 months.i have been following most of the discussion

sincerely and i hav also learned alot.

i thought of adding few words to this subject about ISKCON.its true

that there are many things going on which is against our sampradaya

and if we vaisnavites tend to correct,then we are labelled as cast

conscious etc etc.expecially in the place that im born and brought up

(malaysia)this beleive is almost in every corner of the country.im

proud that it is following bhagavatham and bhagavad gita in close

but certain things are very strange.i beleive probably its to suit

western vaishnavites but then i think certain things are causing

confusion and even i would say great dosham.

il give few examples from what i know besides what has been pin

pointed.firstly women cahnting gayatri japam has been dealt in

detail and we know the reason why it should not be said why

women.adiyen being a pattar brahmin,do not tell in spite of knowing

in and out of it but then some of my college friends are having

cassetes and cd's out of it and in western music pattern which is

composed by ISCKON(not sure which center). the gayatri mantra told

with english slang is jus unexplanabile...it sounds like a mixture

of many things loosing its originality.

beside this,girls or women with menses can take part in all pooja in

the temple.the explanation given are sometimes unbeleivable,(radha

with sri krishna is always with him in spite of she being women

having all hormone changes.some even have agrued with me that once

in isckon,all women are gopikas',so they will always be with god.

when we say part of explanation,we are claimed to be orthodox,etc

etc.

the concept in ISCkon is noble and need to be saluted but at the

smae time if these corrections are done it will be perfect for all

the followers.they should not confuse vaishnavism and brahminism.

brahmanan is by birth and by not by any initiation.one can argue

that lifestyle is also a parameter,agreed.taking into that in

consideration,i believe that is more suitable for any man who si

leading a vedic life.

what is the hunger into getting initiated being a brahmin when god

is not looking at any of these when it comes getting his blessings.

he accepts everyone. basically people should love themself,live and

improve lifestyle towards vedic life than trying to change identity.

this mails not meant to hurt any party but its jus to make few

comments and suggestion on how to be a perfect society.

may god bless all the noble work of all people towards sri vaishnavam

adiyen,

shamini gayatri krishnan

ramanuja, Vijaya Raghavan <svrvan> wrote:

>

> Swamin,

>

> These are some of thughts collected from different kalakshepams.

>

> 1. Iskon, initiates every one into vaishnavism, though a

different form. They do this as initiation to vaishnavism. I dont

think they make evrybody brahmins. Again though this we can say is a

western concept, is actually a process started by our own

emperumanar even.

>

> Only difference is the initiation of women which is purely a

retrogade step and they will learn by themselves.

>

> 2. Even bagwan says " Sarva dharman parityajya....." Swami

Desikan says "Anyatha saranam nasti ....." . As longas any sould

surrenders to him and him alone we have to welcome that. Mukur swami

use to tell 'My lord carries the padam of the beloved on his head".

This we have to celebrate the lord in them as he would like to

handle them solely and follow them.

>

> 3. As for as the Thiruman and the Gopi goes, before thiruman

during the times of ram and Krsna they wore only sandal on their

heads. This was taught to me by one SESHADRI swami during my pratmic

class.

>

> 4. Yes we have to save our culture as it explains the travails

of the sould from the Jada jivan to this level. This way of living

and culture needs to be preserved by explaining the significance of

each of our rituals as that alsone can make our sampradayam sustain.

>

> PLS DO CORRECT IF I AM WRONG PARTLY OR FULLY.

>

> DASAN/raghavan

>

> vimalkumar ranganathan <panardasan> wrote:

>

> SrI:

> Dear Sri Mohan Swamin,

> Whilst your points are

indeed effective, I would like to ramble a couple of my thoughts, as

somebody who had been deeply attached to ISKCON in the past:

>

> 1) When it is accepted that becoming a Vaishnava is paramount

and not the varna-affiliation, I am not able to reconcile with the

fact that ISKCON gives "brahmana initiation" to all and sundry

(including Women!!!) which has no prior vedic pramanas, even in our

Sampradayam, our AchAryAs never tampered with the varna system,

granted they made it a strong point that being a Srivaishnava is

more important. Brahmana initiation for ladies and ladies chanting

Gayathri in ISKCON - I don't know if it is western influence, or

implicitly vEdic. I would love to be corrected on this regard.

>

> 2) Worse, many of our "Iyengars" take "initiation" from western-

born SwAmis and Goswamis of ISKCON - thus symbolically relegating

all their responsibilities to our Ramanuja Matham, sporting the Gopi

Chandanam which is different from Sri Vaishnava sampradayam. Worse,

I know of so-called SrivaishnavAs who sport fantastic thirumaN

during socio-religious occasions but immediately revert to the Gopi-

Chandanam at home - which reflects the pitiable condition of our

sampradayam. Also, I can't understand the logic beyond young

unmarried males/females from Srivaishnava families being "initiated"

in ISKCON, thus accepting Gaudiya Sampradayam. I once asked a very

nice ISKCON sannyasi about the same - if they respect Srivaishnavism

so much, why should they initiate disciples from SV, instead of just

asking them to just follow the Srivaishnava Matham? His answer was,

disciples even from Srivaishnava families unconditionally surrender

to Him explaining their lack of interest in SV, he initiates

> them only then. I couldn't doubt Him.

>

> 3) Granted, there are many positively influential points in

ISKCON that we learn from - food-style, commitment, etc.

Unfortunately we are losing many of our brethen - young and old

alike to a different sampradayam with philosophies and practices

orthogonal to ours.

>

> Dasan,

> Kidambi Soundararajan.

>

> Azhvar EmberumAnAr JeeyAr ThiruvadigalE Saranam

> http://www.vedics.net

>

> Visit your group "ramanuja" on the web.

>

> ramanuja

>

> Terms of

Service.

>

> Photos

> Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in

your hands ASAP.

>

January 11, 2006

what is the vEdic pramAna? - Is it consistent with the sAstrAs? 2) Their

allowing women to temples and even do deity worship during untoward days -

again, what is the history, what is the pramAnA? The philosophy that they

preach - being a brAhmAnA is not the goal, but becoming a vaishnava is.

Becoming a vaishnava supercedes the varna system, according to GV (even SV, for

that matter). Then why should they give brahmana initiation to everyone? Again,

I don't mean to be casteist here. Becoming a brahmana is not a caste-related

theory btw, atleast in the modern day. We have had excellent devotees in our

sampradaya who didn't belong to the brahmana caste, right from many of the

AzhwArs to excellent AchAryAs like vilAnchOlaip piLLai. None of them desired to

become brahmanas - they just glorified the Lord and his devotees, that is all.

As the days progress, synthesis of religion and

liberal ideologies - I don't know if it is going to have a happy ending or not.

-adiyEn dAsan, Kidambi Soundararajan.

Photos Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP.

January 11, 2006

all.i think this is my first mail in this forum after being a member for more

than 3 months.i have been following most of the discussion sincerely and i hav

also learned alot.i thought of adding few words to this subject about

ISKCON.its true that there are many things going on which is against our

sampradaya and if we vaisnavites tend to correct,then we are labelled as cast

conscious etc etc.expecially in the place that im born and brought

up(malaysia)this beleive is almost in every corner of the country.im proud that

it is following bhagavatham and bhagavad gita in close but certain things are

very strange.i beleive probably its to suit western vaishnavites but then i

think certain things are causing confusion and even i would say great dosham.il

give few examples from what i know besides what has been pin pointed.firstly

women cahnting gayatri japam has been dealt in detail and we know the reason

why it should

not be said why women.adiyen being a pattar brahmin,do not tell in spite of

knowing in and out of it but then some of my college friends are having

cassetes and cd's out of it and in western music pattern which is composed by

ISCKON(not sure which center). the gayatri mantra told with english slang is

jus unexplanabile...it sounds like a mixture of many things loosing its

originality.beside this,girls or women with menses can take part in all pooja

in the temple.the explanation given are sometimes unbeleivable,(radha with sri

krishna is always with him in spite of she being women having all hormone

changes.some even have agrued with me that once in isckon,all women are

gopikas',so they will always be with god. when we say part of explanation,we

are claimed to be orthodox,etc etc.the concept in ISCkon is noble and need to

be saluted but at the smae time if these corrections are done it will be

perfect for all the

followers.they should not confuse vaishnavism and brahminism. brahmanan is by

birth and by not by any initiation.one can argue that lifestyle is also a

parameter,agreed.taking into that in consideration,i believe that is more

suitable for any man who si leading a vedic life. what is the hunger into

getting initiated being a brahmin when god is not looking at any of these when

it comes getting his blessings. he accepts everyone. basically people should

love themself,live and improve lifestyle towards vedic life than trying to

change identity.this mails not meant to hurt any party but its jus to make few

comments and suggestion on how to be a perfect society.may god bless all the

noble work of all people towards sri vaishnavamadiyen,shamini gayatri

krishnanramanuja, Vijaya Raghavan <svrvan> wrote:>>

Swamin,> > These are some of

thughts collected from different kalakshepams.> > 1. Iskon, initiates every

one into vaishnavism, though a different form. They do this as initiation to

vaishnavism. I dont think they make evrybody brahmins. Again though this we can

say is a western concept, is actually a process started by our own emperumanar

even.> > Only difference is the initiation of women which is purely a

retrogade step and they will learn by themselves.> > 2. Even bagwan says "

Sarva dharman parityajya....." Swami Desikan says "Anyatha saranam nasti ....."

.. As longas any sould surrenders to him and him alone we have to welcome that.

Mukur swami use to tell 'My lord carries the padam of the beloved on his head".

This we have to celebrate the lord in them as he would like to handle them

solely and follow them.>

> 3. As for as the Thiruman and the Gopi goes, before thiruman during the

times of ram and Krsna they wore only sandal on their heads. This was taught to

me by one SESHADRI swami during my pratmic class.> > 4. Yes we have to save

our culture as it explains the travails of the sould from the Jada jivan to this

level. This way of living and culture needs to be preserved by explaining the

significance of each of our rituals as that alsone can make our sampradayam

sustain.> > PLS DO CORRECT IF I AM WRONG PARTLY OR FULLY.> >

DASAN/raghavan> > vimalkumar ranganathan <panardasan> wrote:> >

SrI:> Dear Sri Mohan

Swamin,> Whilst your points are indeed

effective, I would like to ramble a couple of my thoughts, as somebody who had

been deeply attached to ISKCON in the past:> > 1) When it is accepted that

becoming a Vaishnava is paramount and not the varna-affiliation, I am not able

to reconcile with the fact that ISKCON gives "brahmana initiation" to all and

sundry (including Women!!!) which has no prior vedic pramanas, even in our

Sampradayam, our AchAryAs never tampered with the varna system, granted they

made it a strong point that being a Srivaishnava is more important. Brahmana

initiation for ladies and ladies chanting Gayathri in ISKCON - I don't know if

it is western influence,

or implicitly vEdic. I would love to be corrected on this regard. > > 2)

Worse, many of our "Iyengars" take "initiation" from western-born SwAmis and

Goswamis of ISKCON - thus symbolically relegating all their responsibilities to

our Ramanuja Matham, sporting the Gopi Chandanam which is different from Sri

Vaishnava sampradayam. Worse, I know of so-called SrivaishnavAs who sport

fantastic thirumaN during socio-religious occasions but immediately revert to

the Gopi-Chandanam at home - which reflects the pitiable condition of our

sampradayam. Also, I can't understand the logic beyond young unmarried

males/females from Srivaishnava families being "initiated" in ISKCON, thus

accepting Gaudiya Sampradayam. I once asked a very nice ISKCON sannyasi about

the same - if they respect Srivaishnavism so much, why should they initiate

disciples from SV, instead of just asking them to just follow the

Srivaishnava Matham? His answer was, disciples even from Srivaishnava families

unconditionally surrender to Him explaining their lack of interest in SV, he

initiates> them only then. I couldn't doubt Him. > > 3) Granted, there

are many positively influential points in ISKCON that we learn from -

food-style, commitment, etc. Unfortunately we are losing many of our brethen -

young and old alike to a different sampradayam with philosophies and practices

orthogonal to ours. > > Dasan,> Kidambi Soundararajan. > > > >

Azhvar EmberumAnAr JeeyAr ThiruvadigalE Saranam > http://www.vedics.net> > > >

> > > >

> > > Visit your group "ramanuja" on the web.> > To

from this group, send an email to:> ramanuja>

> > >

> > > > > > > >

> Photos> Got holiday prints? See all

the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP.>

Photos – Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover Photo Books. You design it and we’ll bind it!

January 11, 2006

Dear Sri Kidambi Soundararajan,

Thanks for your reply, of course I understand that you too hold

Gaudiyas in high respect. Let me make it clear that I in no way am

trying to find fault with you or others, but I merely feel that

their sampradaayam deserved defending on this issue (although

perhaps it is presumptuous of me to do so!). Maybe I have a soft

spot for their 'liberal values' as you call them due to being

brought up in the UK, but hopefully I will try and make my point

without bias.

Coming to your point on women and yagnyopaveetam: I am fearful

of this descending into the usual "why women shouldn't chant vedas"

debate but since you asked I am suggesting some references. I don't

know if this is the exact pramANam ISKCON use but it's a guess.

Anyone familiar with the major upanishads will know of the

figures of Gargi and Maitreyi. These women were instrumental in

bringing about the existence of the respective upanishads they are

in, they asked the very questions that needed to be answered.

As a result this would obviously imply that since these women

were the first to utter these veda mantras, perhaps they would claim

that there cannot be a blanket ban on women chanting the Vedas.

Like I said, I don't know their pramaaNam, but this is my guess.

Also you may be able to find articles on "Women and the Vaidika

Matham" or some similar title by Sriman Sadagopan Swami on the

bhakti list archives, in which he even gives an account in the Vedas

of women performing yagnyas. In this article, the 'rishikas'

(female rishis) responsible for receiving the revelation of certain

Veda mantras are also discussed - again implying that women would

have chanted these mantras (However, I do not take this to presume

that Sriman Sadagopin Swami's views agree with ISCKON's, it would be

presumptuous of me to make such a guess). If ISCKON wanted to use

the above as a shastraic justification, I think this is very

convincing (although as with everything, needs to be discussed by

the acharyas of the respective mathams in depth).

Again your statement "why should they give brahmana initiation to

everyone" that troubles me somewhat, I think I went into some detail

in my previous email describing that they most certainly do not give

it to *everyone*. Those who get it are very strictly vetted and

they are made to show their committment to living the vedic life.

Which is much more than can be said for today's birth brahmin

community, as a whole. I certainly know relatives who got rid of

their 'pooNal' as soon as they were sure no-one was looking! I am

sure many of you can relate similar experiences.

In the ISKCON community, I think it is only the people who do

deity worship that are given brahmana initiation. Again like I

said, the ones who are fully prepared to live the *strict* Vedic

lifestyle. Most lay devotees do not get brahmana initiation, and

the only mantra they will chant is the Hare Krishna mantra. In fact

the Gaudiya matha are so good at safeguarding Vedas only to those

with brahmana initiation that many lay devotees don't even know any

quotes from the Vedas!!!

It seems to me your worry is with the idea that they give

brahmana initiation to any non-Indian/brahmin jaati people *at

all*. Well, I have seen their pramANam for this: take a look at the

Satyakaama Jabala episode in Chaandogya upanishad (what more

authority do they need?) and the Vajrasuchika upanishad. In the

former, Satyakama Jabala, though of questionable parentage, was

given upanayanam and studied the Vedic wisdom with his teacher.

Therefore, ISCKON may cite this as proving that brahmaNa status

isn't only by birth. Again, I am not saying this is my view (I

haven't made my mind up yet!) but I am saying - there are certainly

arguments to support the ISCKON view.

This is what I mean by a firm shastraic footing - I don't think

we can claim that the Gaudiyas don't have this shastraic backing. I

think we need to be careful that our cultural upbringing doesn't get

projected onto our expectations of what we think shaastras *should*

say. Needless to say, understanding the Vedas and shaastras is a

complex issue and needs to be done with the help of Vedic scholars

and achaaryas themselves - but let us not presume that ISCKON

doesn't have any Vedic scholars of its own - do we know they don't

for sure?

If you are referring to the dharmashaastra injunctions saying

only birth-dvijas and men should chant Vedas - ok then, once every

one of us birth brahmins is actually keeping every single rule of

every dharmashaastra (I bet less than 1% of actual birth brahmins

are even getting close to succeeding in this), then I will agree

that we are in a position to criticise the ISCKON sampradaayam on

this. But not until then.

Again I submit this with the utmost respect for yourself and the

other learned members and hope that it is taken in the spirit of

enquiry and debate, please forgive me if any offence is caused.

sarvAparAdhAn kShamasva

namO naaraayaNaaya

aaNDaaL tiruvaDigalE sharaNam

with praNaamams,

Ranjan

January 12, 2006

Dear Bhagwathas,

As i know about Iskcon, they follow

Pancharathra aghama vidhi in doing deity worship at

temples. Only intiated brahmins are allowed to do

arthi, deity decorations etc. and not other devottees

who are not given brahmin initiation.Entry to the

temple room is restricted only to the brahmin

initiated devottees.I think this can clarify why they

give brahmin initiation to the selected devottees who

are very sincere,pure and honest in devotional

service.

Krishna dasee

Vedavalli Ranganathan.

>

> Thanks for your reply, of course I understand

> that you too hold

> Gaudiyas in high respect. Let me make it clear that

> I in no way am

> trying to find fault with you or others, but I

> merely feel that

> their sampradaayam deserved defending on this issue

> (although

> perhaps it is presumptuous of me to do so!). Maybe

> I have a soft

> spot for their 'liberal values' as you call them due

> to being

> brought up in the UK, but hopefully I will try and

> make my point

> without bias.

>

> Coming to your point on women and

> yagnyopaveetam: I am fearful

> of this descending into the usual "why women

> shouldn't chant vedas"

> debate but since you asked I am suggesting some

> references. I don't

> know if this is the exact pramANam ISKCON use but

> it's a guess.

>

> Anyone familiar with the major upanishads will

> know of the

> figures of Gargi and Maitreyi. These women were

> instrumental in

> bringing about the existence of the respective

> upanishads they are

> in, they asked the very questions that needed to be

> answered.

>

> As a result this would obviously imply that

> since these women

> were the first to utter these veda mantras, perhaps

> they would claim

> that there cannot be a blanket ban on women chanting

> the Vedas.

> Like I said, I don't know their pramaaNam, but this

> is my guess.

> Also you may be able to find articles on "Women and

> the Vaidika

> Matham" or some similar title by Sriman Sadagopan

> Swami on the

> bhakti list archives, in which he even gives an

> account in the Vedas

> of women performing yagnyas. In this article, the

> 'rishikas'

> (female rishis) responsible for receiving the

> revelation of certain

> Veda mantras are also discussed - again implying

> that women would

> have chanted these mantras (However, I do not take

> this to presume

> that Sriman Sadagopin Swami's views agree with

> ISCKON's, it would be

> presumptuous of me to make such a guess). If ISCKON

> wanted to use

> the above as a shastraic justification, I think this

> is very

> convincing (although as with everything, needs to be

> discussed by

> the acharyas of the respective mathams in depth).

>

> Again your statement "why should they give

> brahmana initiation to

> everyone" that troubles me somewhat, I think I went

> into some detail

> in my previous email describing that they most

> certainly do not give

> it to *everyone*. Those who get it are very

> strictly vetted and

> they are made to show their committment to living

> the vedic life.

> Which is much more than can be said for today's

> birth brahmin

> community, as a whole. I certainly know relatives

> who got rid of

> their 'pooNal' as soon as they were sure no-one was

> looking! I am

> sure many of you can relate similar experiences.

>

> In the ISKCON community, I think it is only the

> people who do

> deity worship that are given brahmana initiation.

> Again like I

> said, the ones who are fully prepared to live the

> *strict* Vedic

> lifestyle. Most lay devotees do not get brahmana

> initiation, and

> the only mantra they will chant is the Hare Krishna

> mantra. In fact

> the Gaudiya matha are so good at safeguarding Vedas

> only to those

> with brahmana initiation that many lay devotees

> don't even know any

> quotes from the Vedas!!!

>

> It seems to me your worry is with the idea that

> they give

> brahmana initiation to any non-Indian/brahmin jaati

> people *at

> all*. Well, I have seen their pramANam for this:

> take a look at the

> Satyakaama Jabala episode in Chaandogya upanishad

> (what more

> authority do they need?) and the Vajrasuchika

> upanishad. In the

> former, Satyakama Jabala, though of questionable

> parentage, was

> given upanayanam and studied the Vedic wisdom with

> his teacher.

> Therefore, ISCKON may cite this as proving that

> brahmaNa status

> isn't only by birth. Again, I am not saying this is

> my view (I

> haven't made my mind up yet!) but I am saying -

> there are certainly

> arguments to support the ISCKON view.

>

> This is what I mean by a firm shastraic footing -

> I don't think

> we can claim that the Gaudiyas don't have this

> shastraic backing. I

> think we need to be careful that our cultural

> upbringing doesn't get

> projected onto our expectations of what we think

> shaastras *should*

> say. Needless to say, understanding the Vedas and

> shaastras is a

> complex issue and needs to be done with the help of

> Vedic scholars

> and achaaryas themselves - but let us not presume

> that ISCKON

> doesn't have any Vedic scholars of its own - do we

> know they don't

> for sure?

>

> If you are referring to the dharmashaastra

> injunctions saying

> only birth-dvijas and men should chant Vedas - ok

> then, once every

> one of us birth brahmins is actually keeping every

> single rule of

> every dharmashaastra (I bet less than 1% of actual

> birth brahmins

> are even getting close to succeeding in this), then

> I will agree

> that we are in a position to criticise the ISCKON

> sampradaayam on

> this. But not until then.

>

> Again I submit this with the utmost respect for

> yourself and the

> other learned members and hope that it is taken in

> the spirit of

> enquiry and debate, please forgive me if any offence

> is caused.

>

> sarvAparAdhAn kShamasva

> namO naaraayaNaaya

> aaNDaaL tiruvaDigalE sharaNam

>

> with praNaamams,

> Ranjan

>

January 12, 2006

in high respect. Let me make it clear that I in no way am trying to find fault

with you or others, but I merely feel that their sampradaayam deserved

defending on this issue (although perhaps it is presumptuous of me to do so!).

Maybe I have a soft spot for their 'liberal values' as you call them due to

being brought up in the UK, but hopefully I will try and make my point without

bias. Coming to your point on women and yagnyopaveetam: I am fearful of

this descending into the usual "why women shouldn't chant vedas" debate but

since you asked I am suggesting some references. I don't know if this is the

exact pramANam ISKCON use but it's a guess. Anyone familiar with the major

upanishads will know of the figures of Gargi and Maitreyi. These women were

instrumental in bringing about the existence of the respective upanishads they

are in, they asked the very

questions that needed to be answered. As a result this would obviously imply

that since these women were the first to utter these veda mantras, perhaps they

would claim that there cannot be a blanket ban on women chanting the Vedas.

Like I said, I don't know their pramaaNam, but this is my guess. Also you may

be able to find articles on "Women and the Vaidika Matham" or some similar

title by Sriman Sadagopan Swami on the bhakti list archives, in which he even

gives an account in the Vedas of women performing yagnyas. In this article,

the 'rishikas' (female rishis) responsible for receiving the revelation of

certain Veda mantras are also discussed - again implying that women would have

chanted these mantras (However, I do not take this to presume that Sriman

Sadagopin Swami's views agree with ISCKON's, it would be presumptuous of me to

make such a guess). If ISCKON wanted to use

the above as a shastraic justification, I think this is very convincing

(although as with everything, needs to be discussed by the acharyas of the

respective mathams in depth). Again your statement "why should they give

brahmana initiation to everyone" that troubles me somewhat, I think I went into

some detail in my previous email describing that they most certainly do not give

it to *everyone*. Those who get it are very strictly vetted and they are made

to show their committment to living the vedic life. Which is much more than

can be said for today's birth brahmin community, as a whole. I certainly know

relatives who got rid of their 'pooNal' as soon as they were sure no-one was

looking! I am sure many of you can relate similar experiences. In the

ISKCON community, I think it is only the people who do deity worship that are

given brahmana initiation. Again

like I said, the ones who are fully prepared to live the *strict* Vedic

lifestyle. Most lay devotees do not get brahmana initiation, and the only

mantra they will chant is the Hare Krishna mantra. In fact the Gaudiya matha

are so good at safeguarding Vedas only to those with brahmana initiation that

many lay devotees don't even know any quotes from the Vedas!!! It seems to me

your worry is with the idea that they give brahmana initiation to any

non-Indian/brahmin jaati people *at all*. Well, I have seen their pramANam for

this: take a look at the Satyakaama Jabala episode in Chaandogya upanishad (what

more authority do they need?) and the Vajrasuchika upanishad. In the former,

Satyakama Jabala, though of questionable parentage, was given upanayanam and

studied the Vedic wisdom with his teacher. Therefore, ISCKON may cite this as

proving that brahmaNa status isn't only by birth.

Again, I am not saying this is my view (I haven't made my mind up yet!) but I am

saying - there are certainly arguments to support the ISCKON view. This is

what I mean by a firm shastraic footing - I don't think we can claim that the

Gaudiyas don't have this shastraic backing. I think we need to be careful that

our cultural upbringing doesn't get projected onto our expectations of what we

think shaastras *should* say. Needless to say, understanding the Vedas and

shaastras is a complex issue and needs to be done with the help of Vedic

scholars and achaaryas themselves - but let us not presume that ISCKON doesn't

have any Vedic scholars of its own - do we know they don't for sure? If you

are referring to the dharmashaastra injunctions saying only birth-dvijas and

men should chant Vedas - ok then, once every one of us birth brahmins is

actually keeping every single rule of every

dharmashaastra (I bet less than 1% of actual birth brahmins are even getting

close to succeeding in this), then I will agree that we are in a position to

criticise the ISCKON sampradaayam on this. But not until then.Again I submit

this with the utmost respect for yourself and the other learned members and

hope that it is taken in the spirit of enquiry and debate, please forgive me if

any offence is caused.sarvAparAdhAn kShamasvanamO naaraayaNaayaaaNDaaL

tiruvaDigalE sharaNamwith praNaamams,Ranjan

Win a BlackBerry device from O2 with . Enter now.

January 12, 2006

your reply, of course I understand that you too hold Gaudiyas in high respect.

Let me make it clear that I in no way am trying to find fault with you or

others, but I merely feel that their sampradaayam deserved defending on this

issue (although perhaps it is presumptuous of me to do so!). Maybe I have a

soft spot for their 'liberal values' as you call them due to being brought up

in the UK, but hopefully I will try and make my point without bias. Coming

to your point on women and yagnyopaveetam: I am fearful of this descending into

the usual "why women shouldn't chant vedas" debate but since you asked I am

suggesting some references. I don't know if this is the exact pramANam ISKCON

use but it's a guess. Anyone familiar with the major upanishads will know of

the figures of Gargi and Maitreyi. These women were instrumental in bringing

about the existence

of the respective upanishads they are in, they asked the very questions that

needed to be answered. As a result this would obviously imply that since

these women were the first to utter these veda mantras, perhaps they would

claim that there cannot be a blanket ban on women chanting the Vedas. Like I

said, I don't know their pramaaNam, but this is my guess. Also you may be able

to find articles on "Women and the Vaidika Matham" or some similar title by

Sriman Sadagopan Swami on the bhakti list archives, in which he even gives an

account in the Vedas of women performing yagnyas. In this article, the

'rishikas' (female rishis) responsible for receiving the revelation of certain

Veda mantras are also discussed - again implying that women would have chanted

these mantras (However, I do not take this to presume that Sriman Sadagopin

Swami's views agree with ISCKON's, it would be

presumptuous of me to make such a guess). If ISCKON wanted to use the above as

a shastraic justification, I think this is very convincing (although as with

everything, needs to be discussed by the acharyas of the respective mathams in

depth). Again your statement "why should they give brahmana initiation to

everyone" that troubles me somewhat, I think I went into some detail in my

previous email describing that they most certainly do not give it to

*everyone*. Those who get it are very strictly vetted and they are made to

show their committment to living the vedic life. Which is much more than can

be said for today's birth brahmin community, as a whole. I certainly know

relatives who got rid of their 'pooNal' as soon as they were sure no-one was

looking! I am sure many of you can relate similar experiences. In the

ISKCON community, I think it is only the

people who do deity worship that are given brahmana initiation. Again like I

said, the ones who are fully prepared to live the *strict* Vedic lifestyle.

Most lay devotees do not get brahmana initiation, and the only mantra they will

chant is the Hare Krishna mantra. In fact the Gaudiya matha are so good at

safeguarding Vedas only to those with brahmana initiation that many lay

devotees don't even know any quotes from the Vedas!!! It seems to me your

worry is with the idea that they give brahmana initiation to any

non-Indian/brahmin jaati people *at all*. Well, I have seen their pramANam for

this: take a look at the Satyakaama Jabala episode in Chaandogya upanishad (what

more authority do they need?) and the Vajrasuchika upanishad. In the former,

Satyakama Jabala, though of questionable parentage, was given upanayanam and

studied the Vedic wisdom with his teacher. Therefore,

ISCKON may cite this as proving that brahmaNa status isn't only by birth.

Again, I am not saying this is my view (I haven't made my mind up yet!) but I

am saying - there are certainly arguments to support the ISCKON view. This is