Reg. Gayathri Mantram and ISKCON - and simple puja

[Guest guest]

Dear Sri Mohan swamin, Sri Kidambi Soundararajan Swamin and others,

 

Please be assured that I am not interested in eliciting an

apology from anyone on behalf of ISKCON, Sri Sampradaayam or anyone

else. I am the least qualified person to speak for any of these

groups. All that I wrote was with a view to encouraging tolerance

between sampradaayams, and reiterating the need for us to be fully

informed about these differences, before we might pass judgement on

another group. Sri Kidambi Soundararajan swamin, I am equally

guilty of value judgements based on my own western upbringing and

ask you to forgive me for the same. In the words of Periyaazhvaar

(but literally applied), I am only a "siRiya NYaanaththan"!

 

Sri Mohan swamin, I think I may have had a case of crossed

wires when answering your point. I am grateful for your timely

reminder that it is more important to inculcate service of

God/others within oneself than emphasise the role of varna, when it

comes to Vaishnavam. And of course the misconception that Sri

Vaishnavism is the preserve of brahmins is a damaging one which, I

agree, no one should go away thinking. Since the initial question

was to do with the significance of gaayatri in Vaishnava thought,

with Sri Pritesh swamin also providing us with the Gaudiya view, I

thought I would relate what I had observed of the differences

between in approach between these two traditions in giving gaayatri

initiation (focussing therefore by implication on brahmins in both

sampradaayams, I am sorry if this came across as implying that they

are more important than anyone else, which of course is not true).

I completely agree that whether one has Vedic initiation or not,

from a Vaishnava point of view this is completely secondary to

inculcating dasatvam/sheshatvam within oneself.

 

As you yourself say, chanting of gaayatri or any other Vedic

practice then becomes yet another process by which we serve Him. In

both sampradaayams, those who consider themselves brahmin no doubt

do so with this in mind.

 

My only last point on this would only be that we also be

careful what we say is the Sri Vaishnava aachaaryas' position on

eligibility for Vedic initiation. We are all no doubt aware that

the *majority* view of acharyas is that this is birth-based; however

Sri Pritesh Swamin gave the important example of a non-Indian

gentlemen who has presumably been given upanayanam by a genuine Sri

Vaishnava acharya and now heads the Australian wing of a Sri

Vaishnava organisation. I believe there at least a couple more such

examples. So even on this issue I would suggest caution when we are

asked 'what is the Sri Vaishnava view on who should chant gaayatri' -

it would seem that, from the example set by some of our revered

acharyas, it is not quite as black and white as we may have

previously thought.

 

If members would like to move onto a different topic, I found

another question by Sri Pritesh very interesting, that of pre-

samaashrayanam devotees performing simple pooja/archana. Is there

any accepted view on this? My grandfather taught me a simple pooja

procedure based on some of the mantras and paasurams from the

Tiruvaaraadhanam which I use (I am also yet to undergo

samaashrayanam), but I would be very interested to hear any other

members' views or experiences.

 

sarvAparAdhAn kShamasva

with praNAmams

namO nArAyaNAya

 

Ranjan

 

 

 

ramanuja, vimalkumar ranganathan

<panardasan> wrote:

>

> SrI:

> SrimatE rAmAnujAya nama:

>

> Dear Sri Ranjan Swamin and others,

> I humbly and gladly stand

corrected. Again, I have the highest reverence for ISKCON for its

high standards and vigor, and even my family has thick connections

with the movement. I have always had been a bit uncomfortable with

what had been discussed - perhaps because of the value systems I

knew, and ofcourse, misunderstandings from my part. I am in total

agreement that in the bigger picture, we are all Vaishnavas who

relish in serving the Lord and his devotees. I also seek the pardon

of any devotees attached to ISKCON if they are offended with what I

wrote.

>

> adiyEN dAsan,

> Kidambi Soundararajan.

>

> AzhwAr emperumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE Saranam.

>

> Mohan Sagar <madhuriandmohan@t...> wrote:

> Sri Ranjan,

>

> My sincere apologies for conveying the wrong message. Please be

rest

> assured that I have utmost respect for ISKCON and have served as

an

> active member of our local temple's advisory board for several

years. I

> also consider several devotees as close, personal friends.

>

> I hope with this in mind, you can better understand the intent of

my

> concerns. What I have been observing in the subsequent postings

is the

> misrepresentation that Sri sampradayam is mainly comprised of

Brahmin

> (Iyengars) and that the Gayatri mantra somehow plays some

significant

> role in becoming a Sri Vaishnava. The varna system - whether we

> believe is birth-based or not - is a state of the body. One's

being a

> brahmana by birth or choice obligates that person to certain rules

and

> codes of conduct that exclude him from the society at large. The

> practice of Vaidika rituals and proper observation of sastra is

also

> important. Whether or not the Iyengars of today follow this is

another

> story, but we all must agree that this what Vedas say - at least

from

> our understanding of it.

>

> But, from the Sri Vaishnava perspective, which I would agree only

> accepts the birth-based varna concept, caste is really a condition

of

> the body. Being a Vaishnava, as our Acharyas say, is a condition

of the

> soul. It involves the realization of "dasatvam" in ISKCON or

> "seshatvam" in the Sri sampradayam, the feeling that one lives to

serve

> the Lord for His Pleasure. Such a psychological/spiritual

position is

> expressed quite differently, through chanting the Holy Name,

serving

> fellow devotees, and so on. Such activities have nothing to do

with

> varna or gender. Even the role of Vaidika rituals change for

those who

> regard themselves to be Brahmin because they are done in His

Service

> without expectation of personal reward. . Therefore, I am of the

> opinion that if one follows a Vaishnava school, the role of this

> dastavam/seshatvam should be emphasized, keeping the Vaidika

rituals in

> proper context as being the svadharma of those who wish to engage

in

> rituals for the Lord's Service. It is in keeping this mood of

servitude

> that I see ISKCON serving as a model to other Vaishnava schools of

thought.

>

> I hope this helps to clarify my position.

>

> adiyen

> Mohan

>

>

>

>

>

>

> > Sriman Mohan, as to why ISKCON has adopted use of the

gaayatri

> >mantra, I am sure anyone who asks them will know that they see

> >themselves as a fully Vaidika sampradaayam. Anyone who has

closely

> >observed an ISKCON worship service will notice that their

poojaris

> >(often non-Indians, who have been given yagnyopaveetam) do recite

> >vedic mantras during worship including Purusha suukta, Vishnu

suukta

> >and others, and if you ask them about their practice you will

find

> >that they do in fact perform trikaala sandhyaavandanam. This

isn't

> >just my guess, I happen to have discussed these issues in detail

a

> >couple of times with a prominent Gaudiya Vaishnava academic in

the

> >UK who also performs priestly duties for many Indian Hindu

> >families.

> >

> > Any student of Gaudiya sampradaayam will also know that they

> >don't to the 'birth' based view of varna prevalent in

Sri

> >sampradaayam - hence their giving of yagnyopaveetam to non-birth

> >brahmins. Your observation that the chanting of Vedas is

restricted

> >by birth may be the understanding of most Sri Vaishnava acharyas,

> >but I think we should respect the strongly held conviction of the

> >Gaudiyas on this. They too will be able to quote vedic pramaaNam

> >stating that 'individuals displaying the required characterists

are

> >eligible for gaayatri'. Any further discussion of this would

> >probably spiral into the caste-by-birth-or-qualities debate which

> >has happened too many times on other lists. My point is that

> >recitation of Gaayatri and Vedas has a very secure, and

sampradaayic

> >position in ISCKON which we should respect.

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

> Azhvar EmberumAnAr JeeyAr ThiruvadigalE Saranam

> http://www.vedics.net

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Bhagavad gita Culture Thirumalai Ways of

Successor Sri

>

>

>

>

>

> Visit your group "ramanuja" on the web.

>

>

> ramanuja

>

> Terms of

Service.

>

>

>

> Photos

> Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events,

holidays, whatever.

>

[Guest guest]

encouraging tolerance between sampradaayams, and reiterating the need for us to

be fully informed about these differences, before we might pass judgement on

another group. Sri Kidambi Soundararajan swamin, I am equally guilty of value

judgements based on my own western upbringing and ask you to forgive me for the

same. In the words of Periyaazhvaar (but literally applied), I am only a

"siRiya NYaanaththan"! Sri Mohan swamin, I think I may have had a case of

crossed wires when answering your point. I am grateful for your timely

reminder that it is more important to inculcate service of God/others within

oneself than emphasise the role of varna, when it comes to Vaishnavam. And of

course the misconception that Sri Vaishnavism is the preserve of brahmins is a

damaging one which, I agree, no one should go away thinking. Since the initial

question was to do with the

significance of gaayatri in Vaishnava thought, with Sri Pritesh swamin also

providing us with the Gaudiya view, I thought I would relate what I had

observed of the differences between in approach between these two traditions in

giving gaayatri initiation (focussing therefore by implication on brahmins in

both sampradaayams, I am sorry if this came across as implying that they are

more important than anyone else, which of course is not true). I completely

agree that whether one has Vedic initiation or not, from a Vaishnava point of

view this is completely secondary to inculcating dasatvam/sheshatvam within

oneself. As you yourself say, chanting of gaayatri or any other Vedic

practice then becomes yet another process by which we serve Him. In both

sampradaayams, those who consider themselves brahmin no doubt do so with this

in mind. My only last point on this

would only be that we also be careful what we say is the Sri Vaishnava

aachaaryas' position on eligibility for Vedic initiation. We are all no doubt

aware that the *majority* view of acharyas is that this is birth-based; however

Sri Pritesh Swamin gave the important example of a non-Indian gentlemen who has

presumably been given upanayanam by a genuine Sri Vaishnava acharya and now

heads the Australian wing of a Sri Vaishnava organisation. I believe there at

least a couple more such examples. So even on this issue I would suggest

caution when we are asked 'what is the Sri Vaishnava view on who should chant

gaayatri' -it would seem that, from the example set by some of our revered

acharyas, it is not quite as black and white as we may have previously thought.

If members would like to move onto a different topic, I found another

question by Sri Pritesh very interesting, that of

pre-samaashrayanam devotees performing simple pooja/archana. Is there any

accepted view on this? My grandfather taught me a simple pooja procedure based

on some of the mantras and paasurams from the Tiruvaaraadhanam which I use (I am

also yet to undergo samaashrayanam), but I would be very interested to hear any

other members' views or experiences.sarvAparAdhAn kShamasvawith praNAmamsnamO

nArAyaNAyaRanjanramanuja, vimalkumar ranganathan

<panardasan> wrote:>> SrI:> SrimatE rAmAnujAya nama:> > Dear Sri

Ranjan Swamin and others,> I humbly and

gladly stand corrected.

Again, I have the highest reverence for ISKCON for its high standards and vigor,

and even my family has thick connections with the movement. I have always had

been a bit uncomfortable with what had been discussed - perhaps because of the

value systems I knew, and ofcourse, misunderstandings from my part. I am in

total agreement that in the bigger picture, we are all Vaishnavas who relish in

serving the Lord and his devotees. I also seek the pardon of any devotees

attached to ISKCON if they are offended with what I wrote. > > adiyEN

dAsan,> Kidambi Soundararajan.> > AzhwAr emperumAnAr jeeyar

thiruvadigaLE Saranam.> > Mohan Sagar <madhuriandmohan@t...> wrote:> Sri

Ranjan,> > My sincere apologies for conveying the wrong message. Please be

rest > assured that I have utmost respect

for ISKCON and have served as an > active member of our local temple's advisory

board for several years. I > also consider several devotees as close, personal

friends.> > I hope with this in mind, you can better understand the intent of my

> concerns. What I have been observing in the subsequent postings is the >

misrepresentation that Sri sampradayam is mainly comprised of Brahmin >

(Iyengars) and that the Gayatri mantra somehow plays some significant > role in

becoming a Sri Vaishnava. The varna system - whether we > believe is

birth-based or not - is a state of the body. One's being a > brahmana by birth

or choice obligates that person to certain rules and > codes of conduct that

exclude him from the society at large. The > practice of Vaidika rituals and

proper observation of sastra is also > important.

Whether or not the Iyengars of today follow this is another > story, but we all

must agree that this what Vedas say - at least from > our understanding of it.>

> But, from the Sri Vaishnava perspective, which I would agree only > accepts

the birth-based varna concept, caste is really a condition of > the body.

Being a Vaishnava, as our Acharyas say, is a condition of the > soul. It

involves the realization of "dasatvam" in ISKCON or > "seshatvam" in the Sri

sampradayam, the feeling that one lives to serve > the Lord for His Pleasure.

Such a psychological/spiritual position is > expressed quite differently,

through chanting the Holy Name, serving > fellow devotees, and so on. Such

activities have nothing to do with > varna or gender. Even the role of Vaidika

rituals change for those who > regard themselves to be Brahmin because

they are done in His Service > without expectation of personal reward. .

Therefore, I am of the > opinion that if one follows a Vaishnava school, the

role of this > dastavam/seshatvam should be emphasized, keeping the Vaidika

rituals in > proper context as being the svadharma of those who wish to engage

in > rituals for the Lord's Service. It is in keeping this mood of servitude >

that I see ISKCON serving as a model to other Vaishnava schools of thought.> > I

hope this helps to clarify my position.> > adiyen> Mohan> > > > > > > >

Sriman Mohan, as to why ISKCON has adopted use of the gaayatri > >mantra, I am

sure anyone who asks them will know that they see > >themselves as a fully

Vaidika sampradaayam. Anyone who has closely > >observed an ISKCON

worship service will notice that their poojaris > >(often non-Indians, who have

been given yagnyopaveetam) do recite > >vedic mantras during worship including

Purusha suukta, Vishnu suukta > >and others, and if you ask them about their

practice you will find > >that they do in fact perform trikaala

sandhyaavandanam. This isn't > >just my guess, I happen to have discussed

these issues in detail a > >couple of times with a prominent Gaudiya Vaishnava

academic in the > >UK who also performs priestly duties for many Indian Hindu >

>families. > >> > Any student of Gaudiya sampradaayam will also know that

they > >don't to the 'birth' based view of varna prevalent in Sri >

>sampradaayam - hence their giving of yagnyopaveetam to non-birth > >brahmins.

Your observation that the chanting of Vedas

is restricted > >by birth may be the understanding of most Sri Vaishnava

acharyas, > >but I think we should respect the strongly held conviction of the

> >Gaudiyas on this. They too will be able to quote vedic pramaaNam > >stating

that 'individuals displaying the required characterists are > >eligible for

gaayatri'. Any further discussion of this would > >probably spiral into the

caste-by-birth-or-qualities debate which > >has happened too many times on

other lists. My point is that > >recitation of Gaayatri and Vedas has a very

secure, and sampradaayic > >position in ISCKON which we should respect.> >> >

> >> > > > > > Azhvar EmberumAnAr JeeyAr ThiruvadigalE Saranam >

http://www.vedics.net> > > > >

> > Bhagavad gita Culture Thirumalai Ways of

Successor Sri > > >

> > > Visit your group "ramanuja" on the web.> > To

from this group, send an email to:> ramanuja>

> > >

> > > > > > > >

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