interesting insights -- followup to s websters question

[Guest guest]

In response to the following question put forth by s webster, I have put

together some thoughts which I believe myself to be a useful way of looking at

things:

In an earlier post you said that the senses can only

perceive the past eg. light bounces of an object and

is then transmitted to the eye, same with the ear. So

the event has already happened before it gets to us to

be perceived. It is like driving in a car but we are

looking out the back window.

 

Then how can we become aware of the event at the

instant that it has occurred?? I ma not taking about

the future but for example the moment the ball is kick

become aware at that instant.

 

My thoughts on this:

Well, if we follow up on the station-wagon model of our perception, then indeed

the obvious question is "where then is the present, if all that I see, hear,

touch, taste, or smell is nothing but the past?" I believe the problem here is

that we automatically assume (that wonderful ego at work) that a "present"

exists and that we experience what exists at any moment. However, if we look at

this from the physics perspective -- i.e., if we extend the analogy of the

particle-wavefunction, then it would appear that "now" doesn't exist until a

moment after experience. This implies that there are no "objects" actually

present "right now". The perceived universe is created on a moment-by-moment

basis. From Swamiji's perspective he actually sees "the present" which is

nothing but the SELF; from our perspective, we are trained and conditioned to

see only "what was" because we rely on our senses, and our attachments to the

world to formulate our "mental picture" of what is happening around us.

Therefore, swamiji is able to see what actually is -- that is, he is ever

absorbed in the experience of "what is" which is nothing but the SELF (i.e., the

one that perceives, rather than the perceived). This may be the conceptual basis

for understanding what "moksha" means -- to annihilate the mind which sees past

events, so that awareness is forever tuned to the infinite present, which hasn't

become anything 'physical' yet -- until your conditioned mind begins the process

of placing 'expectation' on that present; so in essence, you get exactly what

you hope for. Swamiji is beyond this, because he neither maintains any hopes,

desires, or any form of mental conditioning -- he is the Avadhoota; forever

immersed in that bliss of self-awareness, from which he acts spontaneously,

without motives, without any selfishness. We on the other hand, always base our

actions on past, on expectations, on hopes, desires, on "what we think is good"

or "what we think is bad". In reality, there are no "bad people" or "good

people" -- only that infinite self truly exists, but because we place

"expectation" and "mental conditioning" on our perception, we can see either the

"good" or "bad" in someone else. Spirituality, is nothing more than the process

by which we remove such mental conditioning, so that we too, can become one with

that infinite consciousness -- which is nothing but Swamiji.

So long as we hold onto our perception of ourselves as "brahminindian"

"americanpoorrichgoodbadrighteousgenerousselfish" -- we can

never know the truth -- which is that we are none of these. These are human

conceptions. In God's "eyes", everyone is the SELF -- himSELF -- herSELF. So, no

one is beneath anyone else, and no one is above anyone else. So long as you

think "I am pure because I take baths regularly" or "I am pure because I do

this" -- you fail to see the truth. So long as you see "I am a rebel" or "I am a

revolutionary" you fail to see the truth. So long as you choose to become

"something" -- you move away from the truth, which is that you are the SELF at

all times, in all places, equally. So long as you see "I am this" or "I am not

that" you fail to see the truth. There is a beautiful song on Swamiji 60 CD (for

which I don't know where the original version sung by swamiji is) called "Unnadi

Okate", and this song is about the underlying awareness, known as "Shiva". The

song is in telugu, but it means that within everyone there is a constant

awareness, the perceiving intelligence; and this is nothing but Shiva himself.

This Shiva is in Me, in You, and in everyone. This Shiva, due to his innate

energy (shakthi), witnesses the activities of Prakriti (represented by

Parvathi). When Shiva gazes upon Parvathi (awareness looks through the mind) it

perceives the Thandavam (the eternal cosmic dance of Shiva and Parvathi which is

noticed in every atomic nucleus, in every molecule, in every chemical,

electrical or other interaction, from the sub-atomic nucleus, to the very

beginning of the big bang). When that same Shiva goes into deep meditation, the

world goes into cosmic dissolution, and ceases to exist. That Shiva is both the

sustainer of worlds, as well as the destroyer of worlds. When his third-eye

(jnana netram) is closed, his other two eyes are open, perceiving the world of

senses, objects, mountains, and so on; when his two eyes close in deep

meditation, his third eye opens, dissolving the entire universe. He creates and

dissolves the worlds through his causeless spontaneous will. The flow of Ganga

from his matted locks, represents the energy of the kundalini. The flow of this

kundalini controls the enlightenment of all mankind -- however, if it was

released all at once, the energy of the kundalini is so strong that it would

instantly destroy the creation (i.e., the comic dissolution). In order to save

his deceased ancestors from ignorance of samsaara, Bhaghiratha wanted to bring

down this energy of the Kundalini (represented by the Ganga) and therefore did a

great penance. However, Ganga (kundalini) said that if she came down all at

once, the earth (and all material creation) could not take the force of her fall

(i.e., dissolution would occur); therefore, Bhaghiratha requested Shiva to

control this energy, to which Shiva accepted. Therefore, the enlightenment of

all mankind is controlled by the flow of this energy which flows in a controlled

manner from the matted locks of Gangadhara (Shiva). In a sense, Shiva is the

"valve" that controls the flow of this energy in man -- therefore he is depicted

as the presiding deity of the Ajna chakra just below the Sahasrara chakra (in

the region of the third eye in man, between his eye-brows), he occupies the

position of "Guru" who is the controller and bestower of Jnanam.

I believe Swamiji has a very nice quote relating to this on his Calendar:

"God is asleep in rocks... God is awake in plants... God is moving in animals...

God is thinking in man...If we remove our desire, we will see God..."

Swamiji is always here and now (the "present" or "datta"); we are always focused

on what was 1-step before (the past). This is why we are constantly faced with

the "drama" of everyday existence -- we believe that our perceived reality is

important, that we are helpless, that we must do something to secure our future,

and so on. We do not have enough trust in God to simply "let things be as they

are and know that god is the responsible agent behind all progress."

Swamiji on the other hand, knows what is truly important. If you remove the

attachment to desires, to ideas, to conceptions of "good" and "bad", to hopes,

to dreams, and to your innate belief in "righteousness" -- you will learn to

appreciate everyone, you will see the sattvic in everyone, you will stop

choosing your friends based on their "successes and failures", "how can this

person help me", and instead you will befriend the world; and you will find the

Guru in yourself -- that is Swamiji -- who is always there in "the present"

moment, where "I" and "You" do not exist. The ego forces us to face the "past",

and when this ego is removed or made "transparent" we immediately see "what is

now" -- and that is nothing but the Lord himself. In ordinary life, the SELF

seems imaginary -- something untouchable or inapproachable -- while the ego

seems real. When you find the guru within, the ego becomes the illusion, and the

SELF becomes the reality. This is the point of all scriptures, of all learning,

of all puja's, of all shiva rathris, of all life itself -- at least so I have

come to understand.

With that I think a good resolution for Shiva Rathri is: may the Guru within

shine and clear the darkness of the ego. May Swamiji help us all to find that

inner light. Jai Guru Datta!

Srii Guru Datta,

pradyumna

s webster <legal041 wrote:Thank you for your kind words. I am

forwarding this to

the group so they may also respond.

Can i also follow this up with a question?

 

In an earlier post you said that the senses can only

perceive the past eg. light bounces of an object and

is then transmitted to the eye, same with the ear. So

the event has already happened before it gets to us to

be perceived. It is like driving in a car but we are

looking out the back window.

 

Then how can we become aware of the event at the

instant that it has occurred?? I ma not taking about

the future but for example the moment the ball is kick

become aware at that instant.

 

How can we then face forward so we can see where we

are going?

 

Or if we can only perceive the past or if there is

only the the past then what is in the future? Or what

is the event that is the catalyst that creates an

event or Karma???

 

Jai Guru Datta

 

 

--- Pradyumna Upadrashta

wrote:

>

> The idea is that we seek to resolve our conflicts by

> external means, when really the source of conflict

> is within. What is within you, is what you will see

> "externally." This is not contradictory to what the

> bhagavad gita or what sri swamiji has said. Let us

> first analyze what we even mean by the word

> "externally" -- we will find that such "external"

> things don't really exist -- everything is indeed

> "internal".

> It is not that we are "sent" to the earth; but that

> the "earth" and the "people" are products of our

> imagination. Think about this -- have you ever seen

> anything in life that is not "seen with the eyes, or

> heard with the ears, etc."? How do you know that the

> person you are talking to is "real" and not simply

> another aspect of your mind? If you cannot see the

> world, without the glasses of the "mind" -- then how

> do you know the world exists at all, if you didnt

> have the mind to perceive it? Therefore, all

> conflicts are within the mind alone.

> It is for you to think over and try to understand

> these questions -- are the earth and my family and

> all these various multitudes of beings real if I do

> not have the mind to perceive them? (i.e., the

> infamous... if a tree fell in the forest, and no one

> was there to see it fall... did a tree really fall?)

> It depends on one's perspective.

> As for the analogy with quantum physics -- the idea

> is that, the process of observation, will inevitably

> obscure the reality of the object. A particle can

> neither be said to be a 'particle' or a 'wave' since

> it has both properties, but since we measure using a

> particular kind of experiment, we get the two

> different outcomes that support both views. This is

> proof that we alter our perceptions of things when

> we label them as 'this' or 'that'. But this is an

> extremely extremely subtle point. We don't know

> enough about consciousness to say much about this

> yet from a scientific viewpoint. However, it makes

> philosophical and logical sense that your mind

> creates your world around you -- because what is the

> world around you except your mind? Have you smelled

> anything without using your mind? Have you seen

> anything without using your mind? Have you

> experienced anything without using your mind?

> Doesn't the mind "taint" or "create" in that sense

> everything we see all around us? What does a flower

> really look like, if we didn't perceive it with our

> eyes and process this information with our minds?

> What are the eyes? Do they even exist, if they were

> not perceived by the mind? We know we have eyes

> because we see that other people (who only exist

> really in our minds) have eyes... we infer that we

> also have eyes, and confirm this with a mirror....

> But, is the mirror real? Isn't it also something

> that is perceived by the eyes? Isn't it also

> processed by the mind? This goes to the very heart

> of the issue. What are we? Who are we? Can I trust

> that the body that I see, hear, touch, feel -- is

> real? Does it have independent existence whether I

> observe it or not? Or is it more like the dream

> state -- where everything is real, so long as I

> believe in the dream? Then we wake

> up................. (what happened to the dream?

> isn't it real anymore? it seemed so real before? we

> lived a whole life in the dream, didn't we? yet,

> here we are back.... as if none of it happened....

> what is that? isn't that the same as what we

> experience here? how is your dream reality,

> different from your waking reality? are we even

> awake now?)

> Think even deeper on these questions.... you'll

> start to unfold the very truth behind all this that

> we see hear touch and smell. Krishna once said in

> the "Udhava Gita" that "what you see, hear, touch,

> taste, or smell... know that you can never know what

> it REALLY is...." In other words, we color reality

> with our minds, and then we become attached to the

> objects that really only exist in our minds.... even

> I exist in your mind.... just as you exist in my

> mind.... but there's no way for me to point to any

> direction in space, or any point in time... that

> isn't actually part of my mind! So, eliminating all

> that we perceive with our senses, and process with

> our minds.... what remains... is the true SELF...

> that is the GOD we all seek....

> What i'm saying is... when we change our minds...

> the entire world changes instantly...

> Ramana Maharshi had a great quote on this idea:

> "In order to avoid the pain of walking on stones and

> thorns, rather than trying to cover the entire world

> with leather, we can walk on sandals...."

> Change must take place from within, as individuals.

> It cannot come from the societal level, each

> individual must seek to change themselves, and find

> out "who am I?". This frees us from all kinds of

> troubles and worries. Just ask yourself... who am I

> really? What is this that I see around me? Why do I

> attach myself to this? Why do I run away from this?

> I am glad you are able to freely express yourself.

> It is far better to ask a question than simply

> remaining silent and not even trying. I enjoyed your

> questions, they were insightful and got me thinking

> as well.

> Jai guru datta.

> s webster wrote:Jai Guru Datta

>

> I don't understand. I apologize for the lack of

> skill

> properly expressing myself and my thoughts. I will

> attempt to outline my questions?

>

> Are you saying that we as Souls/Beings are sent to

> the

> earth? The earth then already have been designed and

> made and exists? So then is this plane of existence

> real???? Are enveloped by the pre-existence of where

> we are at present???

>

> If this does not exist then what is around me a

> manifestation of my own thoughts and Karma? Does not

> the study support that contention?

>

> If self realization and spirituality has nothing to

> do

> with the changing of the environment or society

> behaves doesn't that contradict the Gita which

> states

> the all of this does not exist. And that Swamiji

> says

> only exist in the Lord.

>

> If it has nothing to do with the environment then

> how

> when we have changed our attitudes, perspectives or

> even become self aware our interactions have changed

> and doesn't this change the "external environment

> and

> society"???

>

> I have some additional questions but I will post it

> in

> another email to make it easier for me to read and

> understand.

>

> --- Pradyumna Upadrashta

>

>

> ______________________________

> The centipede was happy quite

> until a bird said, in fun,

> "Which foot goes after which?"

> This raised his mind to such a pitch

> he lay distracted in a ditch

> considering how to run.

>

>

>

>

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______________________________

The centipede was happy quite

until a bird said, in fun,

"Which foot goes after which?"

This raised his mind to such a pitch

he lay distracted in a ditch

considering how to run.

 

 

 

 

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