liberation and grace

[Guest guest]

although our traditions understand liberation differently, does the

Hindu way of seeing things connect liberation to grace from the gods,

or is that not a Hindu concept. for me, liberation was something only

attainable through God. what is a Hindu's relationship with the gods?

Or do they speak of a relationship 'as such'. It seems that Ganesh's

devotees speak of him in personal and even loving terms.

 

Yours truly, Bill

[Guest guest]

Namaste Bill,

 

I have enjoyed your posts so far, they have been very refreshing and

illustrate a true seeking of light.

 

I thought I'd take a stab at responding to your post.

 

> although our traditions understand liberation differently,

 

Without attempting to open up a theological debate I would say that

Christian and Hindu traditions don't really understand liberation

differently. It just depends on your interpretation of the teachings.

IMO, liberation, or union with God, is one and the same in both

traditions. It comes through Self-realization (Christ

consciousness), after which one enters union with the Divine (the

Father). When Christ said " No one enters the Father but through Me"

(forgive me if this is not the exact wording), I understand that he

was saying that one must first find the Christ within (the atman or

Self) and having realized the Christ within one may enter into union

with the Father. Conversely a rich man, or one who has many inner

possessions (attachments, egotism, etc) can not enter the Kingdom of

Heaven. Meaning that he cannot find the Christ within nor find the

Father. So from my perspective and interpretation I don't really see

too many differences in the traditional teachings. The differences

seem to lie within the orthodox institutions that have been built

over the centuries. In which the inner meaning of the teachings has

been neglected or misinterpreted.

 

 

>does the Hindu way of seeing things connect liberation to grace from

the gods, or is that not a Hindu concept.>

 

There are so many different schools within Hinduism that to yes for

all of them may not be correct. But generally speaking I would

suggest that yes it does. Liberation comes through the grace of the

Divine (whatever the form, be it God, Goddess, or Guru).

 

>for me, liberation was something only attainable through God. what

is a Hindu's relationship with the gods?>

 

Again it depends on the Hindu. Some schools see god as being

impersonal, others personal. However in my understanding most

understand whatever God or Goddess it is to be a form of the one

ultimate Divine God. Often a Hindu will have a personal god with

whom they develop a particular relationship with by worshipping that

god, meditating on them, etc. Although one may have a personal god

(or even two or three) they will still recognize other God forms and

celebrate their festivals and honor them in temples.

 

> Or do they speak of a relationship 'as such'. It seems that

Ganesh's devotees speak of him in personal and even loving terms.>

 

Yes some of them do speak about relationships as such. Particular

the bhakti (devotional) schools. Though devotion and love of God is

hard to escape no matter what path one follows.

 

 

Blessed Be,

 

Neil

[Guest guest]

-

Bill Rogers

 

Sunday, May 20, 2001 7:12 AM

liberation and grace

although our traditions understand liberation differently, does the Hindu way of

seeing things connect liberation to grace from the gods, or is that not a Hindu

concept. for me, liberation was something only attainable through God. what is

a Hindu's relationship with the gods? Or do they speak of a relationship 'as

such'. It seems that Ganesh's devotees speak of him in personal and even loving

terms.Yours truly, Bill

I like your question, Bill -- but I'd like to broaden it out, if you

don't mind. I suspect I am not the only non-Hindu on this list. I think it

would be interesting if all of us from differing perspectives were to share our

views.

 

Personally, I am an Spiritual eclectic & a pantheist. Let me think

aloud here for a bit. I feel some definitions might help clarify things a

bit. Keep in mind that these are just my definitions. Not trying to

constrain anyone else into my worldview.

 

In pantheism, everything is god. Ganesh, Jesus, you, me, the chair I

am sitting on, and the microbes in the air I breathe. So are the elements

like Fire, Water, Air, and Earth. Mayhaps on some grand idealistic plane I

can see how all the gods taken together are God. One unified whole. But

for me, that is a philosophical construct. In daily life, I deal with some

small scattering of the gods, not God.

 

Then there are the polytheists. They seem to perceive some aspects of

the Universe as gods & others as not. There are pantheons -- like the Hindu

pantheon, the gods & goddesses of Wicca, etc. Some pantheists seem to lean

real close to monotheism. I hear some Hindus speak of all the various gods &

goddesses as being manifestations of some One-God. Shiva's name comes up in

some of these essays I read. As I am not a Hindu I cannot speak here with

any authority, but it seems like some Shivites are saying all the rest of the

Hindu pantheon are but aspects of their god Shiva. Looks kinda like a

monotheistic current within polytheism from where I sit. But as I said, I am

not a Hindu & I may be missing a lot.

 

The monotheists confuse me the most. I live in the US & have had

strong contact with both Catholics & Protestant sects for decades. After

moving to the South I began to hear fundamentalists say that Catholics were not

Christian. In the North, Catholics sure considered themselves Christians.

But I digress. I was raised Catholic. They claim to be monotheistic, but

with their tri-une godhead I would say they are more trinitarians than

monotheists. Then there are the fundamentalist sects. On one level, I

perceive all Christian sects as dualistic. God /Devil, good /evil,

divine/human, etc. Their whole focus seems on the dualistic struggle. Not

very monotheistic from my perspective. The Christians say there is but one

God, but they always seem to need to put something which is *not god* into the

picture someplace.

 

 

Back to how I relate to the gods & goddesses. I perceive an ecology

of entities. I see there are many differences between myself & Ganesh (for

example). But I do not worship. I interact. We love each other. But I am

neither child nor servant. If I am punished for my actions it is by my own

ignorance &/or stupidity. For example -- my teeth are rotting out from eating

sugar for decades. My human body will most probably ear out someday & it will

die. No god is punishing me. Just the consequence of my actions. I do my

best to live a life in which I learn to be a happier & more balanced person.

Part of the learning is making mistakes. The gods are my companions. They

sometimes assist me to understand things. What I do for them is very

unclear, but I feel strongly that my relationship with them is a two-way

street.

 

Liberation (as I see it) is (in part) transcending the limitations of

wherever I am in life. I feel we (all of us on the physical plane & beyond)

are building something. We are evolving what we are building as we build it.

Part of that building is me liberating myself from old genetic programs which

are not useful (kill people who anger me, lie to obtain sexual favors, etc.).

Another part of this building is to envision the future as better than today,

work out as many details as possible, then do what I am able to fulfill that

vision. And yes, I understand that all this is illusion -- a product of the

Maya of linear time & of the concept that "I" am doing anything. But these

illusions (so long as I do not take them too seriously) seem to me to provide

tools & perspective for a fulfilling & interesting game within Maya.

 

I believe the gods & goddesses are evolving as well. Everything works

to be liberated from past misconceptions which may have been useful for a

while, but are no longer valid. Our conceptions of the gods change over

time, but I believe the reality of the gods (if they can be said to have any

reality) also (IMO) changes. But, then again, I am an evolutionist. I

believe it is the nature of all of us to work together to make more interesting

games. Mayhaps I am just deluded.

 

I do not believe any god can liberate me. And if s/he could, I would

refuse it. I work in concert with all of manifest creation to evolve & grow

& liberate myself. I do not want to sound overly egotistical here. I work

in concert with all the others whose lives I touch -- human, animal, gods, &

all else. Not me working alone. I would not know how to be alone. I am

part of the matrix. As is Ganesh & Christ & Satan & Kernunos & Isis & the

Elemental Forces and the chair upon which I sit & the computer who toils with

me daily to spread interesting ideas throughout the cosmos. My perceptions

spread wide -- but they are but the minutest fragment of the matrix as a whole.

All -- in my view -- are connected & seeking liberation.

 

And I come full circle. I guess from this perspective I am a

monotheist. But not one who posits a duality of god/man or good/evil. But

God as the unifying all which is each of us & the connection which brings all

together.

 

Alobar

 

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"Happiness is the exercise of vital powers along lines of excellencein a life

affording them scope." - Aristotle."...do not reject these teachings as false

because I am crazy. Thereason that I am crazy is because they are true."