Guest guest Posted September 5, 1999 Report Share Posted September 5, 1999 Zenbob wrote: > Each of these worthy examples had personal >failings, human limitations and in some cases fatal flaws. The old adage, >"Familiarity breeds contempt" is perhaps too strong an example...but those >who most set themselves up as "masters" and perfected leaders, also set >themselves up for the greatest "fall." Idealistic, young, and faithful >followers, students and devotees often do not find these all too human flaws >until it is "too late." They have invested so much personal time, devotion, >money into the quest and have in many ways become inexorably linked to the >path, organization and teacher in the minds of others that to "back out" or >reveal that the "emperor might be at least partly clothed at best" is very >difficult, if not impossible. Part of this problem is the expectation of >perfection and infallibility. So a good teacher, one who is truly profoundly >wise does not place themselves into this deadly corner. Such is the example >of my Martial Arts instructors, who clearly expressed their own limitations, >faults and never made claims of complete mastery. I think Zenbob that you have written autobiographically and honestly yourself and that is truly praiseworthy... When I began instructing a Yoga class months ago I decided not to charge any fees as there plenty of Yoga for fee businesses everywhere... now I think much has been gained in this process and that there is a powerful dynamic spiritually when the class is advancing awakening their pranic energy and progreessing on the path, largely because no fee was asked I believe... If spiritual knowledge is sold it paradoxically cheapens it and places a price on it... like an initiation you pay for or a diploma you pay for, somehow you walk away feeling cheapened...as far as possible we need to keep money out of the picture... I give away free yoga t-shirts... we have free lessons ... we meet in free places... it's synergistic and cool! - Art lgregory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 1999 Report Share Posted September 5, 1999 However, there seems to be a universal law that says one must give in order to receive... In my experience, an exchange of some sort works for the better on many levels for all concerned. It's not about the $ specifically. Only that $ is energy... ---------- >lgregory (The Clan) >Kundaliniyoga >Re: Digest Number 169 >Sun, Sep 5, 1999, 9:50 AM > >lgregory (The Clan) >I think Zenbob that you have written autobiographically and honestly >yourself and that is truly praiseworthy... When I began instructing a Yoga >class months ago I decided not to charge any fees as there plenty of Yoga >for fee businesses everywhere... now I think much has been gained in this >process and that there is a powerful dynamic spiritually when the class is >advancing awakening their pranic energy and progreessing on the path, >largely because no fee was asked I believe... If spiritual knowledge is >sold it paradoxically cheapens it and places a price on it... like an >initiation you pay for or a diploma you pay for, somehow you walk away >feeling cheapened...as far as possible we need to keep money out of the >picture... I give away free yoga t-shirts... we have free lessons ... we >meet in free places... it's synergistic and cool! - Art > > >lgregory > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > >ATTENTION ONElist MEMBERS: Get your ONElist news! >Join our MEMBER NEWSLETTER here: ><a href=" http://clickme./ad/newsletter2 ">Click Here</a> > >------ >"OUR DESTINY IS TO BE HAPPY" > - Yogi Bhajan > >Check out our website: >http://www.gtmark.com/ky/index.htm > >Sponsored by Yoga Technology Press >publishers of a popular range of books >on Kundalini Yoga and Meditation. >http://www.yogatech.com > >To from this list, go to >ONElist Member Center, or send mail to >Kundaliniyoga- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 1999 Report Share Posted September 5, 1999 In a message dated 9/5/99 8:40:11 AM Pacific Daylight Time, lgregory writes: << If spiritual knowledge is sold it paradoxically cheapens it and places a price on it... like an initiation you pay for or a diploma you pay for, somehow you walk away feeling cheapened...as far as possible we need to keep money out of the picture... I give away free yoga t-shirts... we have free lessons ... we meet in free places... it's synergistic and cool! - Art >> Dear Art: Great response! Wow, you bring up a thorny and complex issue and we will not hear the end of it for a long time, I am willing to bet. I am meaning the issue of charging for "spiritual" or "developmental" classes. In a perfect world, I agree with your "pure form" of thinking on this. So, bear in mind, nothing I will say further is to detract from your opinions, choices or worthy work that you do. I wish more people had the strength and means to do as you do. However, this is not a perfect world, and all life has value...even the hours of life of a dedicated and honest Teacher. I cannot condemn those people that honestly come to a decision regarding their time and life and choose to charge a reasonable or modest price for their knowledge and skill. We all expect the plumber to charge, to pay for a haircut, etc. I think that most sincere Teachers who offer training that is purely "spiritual" make every effort to "give away" as much as they possibly can and to offer free services and classes when they can afford to do so. The old expression "time is money" is old, but still somewhat valid. If one expects another living creature to sacrifice the most valuable thing it possesses (life/time) in order to make his/her life more fulfilling, then it is right that they should be willing to provide some exchange for this sacrifice. It might be volunteer work, cleaning the dojo or center, tutoring other students, helping to build structures, providing foods for Darshan, hosting classes in their home, etc. Nothing is truly free, except that which is provided by the Universe...air, water, freedom. But we need to show appreciation for the things we receive, to honor and value them. Sadly, in Western society, quite often people do not value a thing unless it costs them dearly...then they are mindful. As one teacher joked during a seminar I attended a few years ago, "I had somehow come to the attention of a wealthy business investor who wished to take my class, but complained that he did not feel comfortable attending the regular classes, as he would be pestered by students wanting to get tips and advice from him. Also, he was willing to pay any price for a personal, one on one session. I agreed, and said that he should meet me the next day at my hotel at precisely 1PM. He arrived punctually and asked how much would the session cost. I told him $25,000. He was a bit shaken, but dutifully wrote out the check. He sat and waited. I smiled and then said, 'Love others.' I stood and extended my hand, thanking him for taking the session. He was flabbergasted. 'You charge me $25,000 and all you say is "love others!"' he yelled. 'Yes, because, now you will always remember that this was your most valuable lesson in life.'" This story may lose something, since it is not in the warm and compassionate aura of the teacher who told this, but hopefully you get the idea. When someone asked what he did with the check, the Teacher laughed and said, "I saved the check for several years...kept it until I met the investor again, almost five years later. He was now building homes for poor families and had given up his investment business. When I asked him why he laughed and said, "I never forgot your expensive lesson. It just chewed me up for months...I was so angry...but a deal is a deal. Then I noticed that the check never cleared the bank. My accountant sent you note after note asking that you deposit the check, but it never cleared. Finally I just stopped worrying about it...but I never forgot those two words. It changed everything in my life." It was then that I pulled out the check and handed it to him...still uncashed. I think that this was a fine spiritual moment. He took the check and hugged me. I think he still has it, framed on his wall." So, sometimes we must play games to lure students into believing that something has great value. And no, it need not always be financial...but it must be something that they truly value. It might be a special technique...a blessing, etc. I knew many students who worked themselves up into a frenzy just to receive the blessings of certain well known "holy gurus" who would bless them with a peacock feather. I have peacock feathers and can also bless them, but they somehow were not interested in my blessing. They were foolish. A blessing from anyone given generously and in love is worth more than a blessing given because of a donation, an obligation or because it is being televised by the media. I am most interested in hearing other opinions on this tough subject of "to charge or not to charge for training." Be wary, of course, of those who would offer to provide you with exceptional Tantra training in a motel room for a one time fee of a hundred dollars or more, "but no kinky stuff or violence" as these are not well regarded Tantra teachers, and this type of training is not looked upon with favor by local constabularies in most communities. ) Blessings Love, Zenbob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 1999 Report Share Posted September 6, 1999 In a message dated 9/5/99 7:45:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ZEN2WRK writes: << I am most interested in hearing other opinions on this tough subject of "to charge or not to charge for training." >> Zenbob.... I have been teaching for about a year. I do charge for classes that I teach on my own.....the places such as the Y or a fitness studio where I also teach sets their own rates. This question came up during teacher training, as alot of us would be having friends taking our classes....and how could we possibly charge our friends money? Our answer was very simple and very direct....in this society, people do not value something that they do not pay for in some way...usually monetarily. We tend to value something more if we have to work and pay for it. I tend to agree with this statement. I will be adding a new class to my schedule this fall...one for teenage girls (friends of my daughter). There is one 14 year old who this class will mean very much to; however, her family is not-well-to-do. I could let her take the class for free....it wouldn't hurt me at all, but I want her to value the class and learn as much from it as she can and being 14 years old, I am not sure how much she will value something she gets for free. Kids seem to take so much for granted because so much is given to them. She and I have talked at length about values, spirituality, etc. and we have come up with a barter system. For each class she takes from me, she will do one chore at my home, where she spends a great deal of time. It could be something as simple as weeding my garden...but we have both agreed that this is for the best. My opinion only. Devta Kaur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 1999 Report Share Posted September 6, 1999 In a message dated 9/6/99 12:29:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, MorgaineS writes: > > << I am most interested in hearing other opinions on this tough subject of "to charge or not to charge for training." This is my process. When it was an issue to provide for one's own well-being, nothing is more righteous than to be compensated for one's qualities- and I have found that it is worth what others are willing to pay. The more one finds their time overflowing, the more one can charge. In my massage career, over a year or two, water seeked its level, and I found the perfect balance. Once I achieved financial independence I only worked with those for whom I felt empathy, and was happy to make my services gratuitous. But, I have since learned something that I believe must be an ancient insight, though I think my realization can be attributed to something Freud said about the relationship between therapist & client. Often, what is given away is considered worthless. Some form of exchange should take place between a teacher & student, as opposed to the pleasure one takes in being with friends & lovers. Then both assume a meaningful responsibility that deepens dedication. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 1999 Report Share Posted September 6, 1999 In a message dated 9/6/99 10:54:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Aruftu writes: << Once I achieved financial independence I only worked with those for whom I felt empathy, and was happy to make my services gratuitous. But, I have since learned something that I believe must be an ancient insight, though I think my realization can be attributed to something Freud said about the relationship between therapist & client. Often, what is given away is considered worthless. Some form of exchange should take place between a teacher & student, as opposed to the pleasure one takes in being with friends & lovers. Then both assume a meaningful responsibility that deepens dedication. >> Dear Arufta: Your words are thoughtful and reflect some excellent ideas, that I believe most of us should try to keep in mind. As you express, "some exchange" provides a sense of value to the experience...and sharing is not sharing if one person gives and the other receives. Love, like other experiences of value must be a shared experience. Blessings Love, Zenbob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 1999 Report Share Posted September 6, 1999 In a message dated 9/6/99 9:29:31 AM Pacific Daylight Time, MorgaineS writes: << For each class she takes from me, she will do one chore at my home, where she spends a great deal of time. It could be something as simple as weeding my garden...but we have both agreed that this is for the best. My opinion only. >> Dear Devta: Your approach seems wise and flexible. As I have said, it need not be money that is exchanged. Value is the key...and this can be quite an individual and personal thing. I once taught a series of classes on weekends for students learning electronics and seeking to master service skills for VCR's and TV's. Since it was free, I merely asked that all those in attendance be willing to jot down notes and make them available to others in their regular classes who had expressed an interest, but where their family commitments and jobs prevented their attendance in the free VCR classes. Of course, next, I had to find some way of making the "free notes" something that these students would also value. So I brought in some VCRs and required that these students use the notes to perform basic service procedures, under the watchful eyes of the students who had attended the full series of workshops. Ah, bliss! I found that I had created both new teachers and eager students. Blessings Love, Zenbob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 7, 1999 Report Share Posted September 7, 1999 I first did yoga in 1975, when I was 15 and used to bring fresh homemade bread as my offering of exchange. It would take most of the day to make 2 loaves and a lot of kneading. I felt very good about giving as well as receiving and the KY classes changed my life... Sat Siri ---------- >MorgaineS >Kundaliniyoga >Re: Digest Number 169 >Mon, Sep 6, 1999, 10:28 AM > >MorgaineS > >In a message dated 9/5/99 7:45:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ZEN2WRK >writes: > ><< I am most interested in hearing other opinions on this tough subject of >"to > charge or not to charge for training." > >> > >Zenbob.... > >I have been teaching for about a year. I do charge for classes that I teach >on my own.....the places such as the Y or a fitness studio where I also teach >sets their own rates. This question came up during teacher training, as alot >of us would be having friends taking our classes....and how could we possibly >charge our friends money? Our answer was very simple and very direct....in >this society, people do not value something that they do not pay for in some >way...usually monetarily. We tend to value something more if we have to work >and pay for it. I tend to agree with this statement. I will be adding a new >class to my schedule this fall...one for teenage girls (friends of my >daughter). There is one 14 year old who this class will mean very much to; >however, her family is not-well-to-do. I could let her take the class for >free....it wouldn't hurt me at all, but I want her to value the class and >learn as much from it as she can and being 14 years old, I am not sure how >much she will value something she gets for free. Kids seem to take so much >for granted because so much is given to them. She and I have talked at >length about values, spirituality, etc. and we have come up with a barter >system. For each class she takes from me, she will do one chore at my home, >where she spends a great deal of time. It could be something as simple as >weeding my garden...but we have both agreed that this is for the best. >My opinion only. >Devta Kaur > >--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > >ONElist: your connection to like-minds and kindred spirits. > >------ >"OUR DESTINY IS TO BE HAPPY" > - Yogi Bhajan > >Check out our website: >http://www.gtmark.com/ky/index.htm > >Sponsored by Yoga Technology Press >publishers of a popular range of books >on Kundalini Yoga and Meditation. >http://www.yogatech.com > >To from this list, go to >ONElist Member Center, or send mail to >Kundaliniyoga- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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