samadhi

[Guest guest]

Sat Nam Paul,

 

> It sounds like you think you're liberated. Congratulations O wonderful

> person!

 

I don't "think" I am liberated. I _know_ that everyone is. "The mind is the

cause of bondage and liberation", it is said. We are already free, we are

already Buddhas, we are already Sat, we are already Brahman. It is just the

ego that makes it hard to see. It is very Piscean to tell people how hard,

or nearly impossible, it is to be free, to be beautiful, to be blissful. How

hard it is to reach God, who is everywhere. That we are, since you mentioned

it, "sinful".

 

What did Krishna say in the Bhagavad Gita? "Those who chant My name with

love can buy Me very cheaply". What did Vasishta tell Rama? "Take away a

person's ego and only God remains." Why think God is far and unreachable? If

He weren't right here, within all of us, we would stand no chance of ever

attaining Him.

 

About sin... where is there sin in God? If so many yoga paths have something

in common, it is the knowledge and experience of the fact that only God IS,

and there is nothing beyond that. Sin and virtue are constructs of the mind,

they are dual notions. Duality is not divinity. So if we agree that

everything is One, where do we see sin in it? It is said in the Vedas -

 

Om purnamadam purnamidam - Om, this is perfect, that is perfect

Purnat purnamudacyate - From the perfect springs the

perfect

Purnasya purnamadaya - If from the perfect the perfect is

taken

Purnamevavasisyate - The perfect remains.

 

There is greater force in reminding someone that they are perfect, than it

is in telling them they are sinners. "You are perfect - behave up to it" -

versus - "You are a sinner, you don't deserve to see God". Milarepa used to

be a murderer before becoming a saint... "I bow to you, for you are a Buddha

to be", used to say Avalokiteshvara to everyone.

 

Of course the ego gets in the middle and doesn't let one see their own

Self... That is why we do KY, we chant, we meditate, we receive Shaktipat,

we live in ashrams, we do seva - not to become God, because we already are

one with Him, but to help get rid of the ego. "You plus ego is not you. You

minus ego is God", says Yogi Bhajan.

 

Savikalpa Samadhi is talked about both in Kashmir Shaivism and Nichiren

Buddhism, at least - two traditions I am somewhat familiar with. I think

everyone would agree samadhi is not an end in itself. That being said, I

will leave you with a Sufi quote - "You can break a mosque, you can break a

church, but never break a human heart, for that is where God dwells."

 

Love and blessings to all,

Satsang Kaur

[Guest guest]

Dear Paul,

It sounds like you think you're liberated. Congratulations O wonderful

person!

 

I have no argument with what you said. In reading Hari Bol's post, I fell

into the trap of comparing my spiritual development with others, and your

reply has helped me to see once again how truly foolish that is. : ) You do

sound angry, however, and though it seems necessary and even right at times

to be so, it's hard on the heart. Therein lies my concern for you.

Many Blessings,

Bob Knight

littlebird108 [littlebird108]

Sunday, July 15, 2001 8:55 PM

Kundaliniyoga

samadhi

[Guest guest]

Sat Nam,

 

My husband will likely have something to say to you, but I would like to

share what my thoughts are. I think there is a balance between what you and

my husband are saying. You are affirming our potentials, which is very

positive. But I think we should temper that with the reality of our current

situations here on earth. To ignore the fact that most of us are very much

in illusion and have a lot of work to do is not healthy. It is too easy to

lock up those parts of ourselves we don't approve of and just pay attention

to the "spiritual" parts of ourselves that seem qualified for enlightenment.

I see this as being very common amongst those on a spiritual path,

especially those closely involved with organizations (and their associated

judgements). Also we should not forget the beauty, purity, and sacredness

of samadhi. That is partially what Paul meant by not 'selling it cheap'.

He is very familiar with the Bhagavad Gita and Vasishtha's Yoga, so he will

probably have some comment on your scriptural references.

 

Maybe I'm biased because I'm in love with him, but I value his opinion on

these subjects because he has seen what is ahead for him and has had to come

back and do the work this lifetime. My experience is more gentle and

flowing, and the Sanskrit and Gurumukhi terminologies are not those that

come from inside for me, though I do feel potency in them. I like Japji

very much and have had some very powerful experiences chanting "Hare Krishna

Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare, Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare

Hare and I of course love the kundalini yoga mantras, else I wouldn't be

here. I am definitely about love and and openness and believe in the

perfection of the universe, but I feel the need to acknowledge and work with

the reality we are in- to be grounded, temporary or illusory (take your pick

of terms) as it may be. Though it can be very difficult at times to be here

there is always help and communion with Spirit.

 

Concerning the out of body experience comments, I just had to pipe in on

that one because I heard the term in my head as I was reading that post as

well. I think it was the "launching" reference that partially did it. I

don't see how leaving the body is samadhi, I think it has more to do with

what state your consciousness is in. I think you made the comparison based

just on the message we were talking about. I don't think it matters much

really, though.

 

I also think it is very valid to stress to practitioners of yoga that being

grounded in our bodies is important when we are practicing a lot of

meditation. In other forms of yoga, like bhakti (I am thinking of the

related mantra meditation here), the physical practice would be the service

that is done with the body. Personally I think the kriyas we do are great,

but to each his own.

 

Sat Siri Akal,

Love Always,

 

littlebird Leslie

AKA Guru Chiter Kaur

 

Satsang Kaur [satsang]

Monday, July 16, 2001 5:49 AM

Kundaliniyoga

Re: samadhi

 

Sat Nam Paul,

 

> It sounds like you think you're liberated. Congratulations O wonderful

> person!

 

I don't "think" I am liberated. I _know_ that everyone is. "The mind is the

cause of bondage and liberation", it is said. We are already free, we are

already Buddhas, we are already Sat, we are already Brahman. It is just the

ego that makes it hard to see. It is very Piscean to tell people how hard,

or nearly impossible, it is to be free, to be beautiful, to be blissful. How

hard it is to reach God, who is everywhere. That we are, since you mentioned

it, "sinful".

 

What did Krishna say in the Bhagavad Gita? "Those who chant My name with

love can buy Me very cheaply". What did Vasishta tell Rama? "Take away a

person's ego and only God remains." Why think God is far and unreachable? If

He weren't right here, within all of us, we would stand no chance of ever

attaining Him.

 

About sin... where is there sin in God? If so many yoga paths have something

in common, it is the knowledge and experience of the fact that only God IS,

and there is nothing beyond that. Sin and virtue are constructs of the mind,

they are dual notions. Duality is not divinity. So if we agree that

everything is One, where do we see sin in it? It is said in the Vedas -

 

Om purnamadam purnamidam - Om, this is perfect, that is perfect

Purnat purnamudacyate - From the perfect springs the

perfect

Purnasya purnamadaya - If from the perfect the perfect is

taken

Purnamevavasisyate - The perfect remains.

 

There is greater force in reminding someone that they are perfect, than it

is in telling them they are sinners. "You are perfect - behave up to it" -

versus - "You are a sinner, you don't deserve to see God". Milarepa used to

be a murderer before becoming a saint... "I bow to you, for you are a Buddha

to be", used to say Avalokiteshvara to everyone.

 

Of course the ego gets in the middle and doesn't let one see their own

Self... That is why we do KY, we chant, we meditate, we receive Shaktipat,

we live in ashrams, we do seva - not to become God, because we already are

one with Him, but to help get rid of the ego. "You plus ego is not you. You

minus ego is God", says Yogi Bhajan.

 

Savikalpa Samadhi is talked about both in Kashmir Shaivism and Nichiren

Buddhism, at least - two traditions I am somewhat familiar with. I think

everyone would agree samadhi is not an end in itself. That being said, I

will leave you with a Sufi quote - "You can break a mosque, you can break a

church, but never break a human heart, for that is where God dwells."

 

Love and blessings to all,

Satsang Kaur

[Guest guest]

>

> Satsang Kaur [satsang]

> Monday, July 16, 2001 5:49 AM

> Kundaliniyoga

> Re: samadhi

>

>

> Sat Nam Paul,

>

> > It sounds like you think you're liberated. Congratulations O wonderful

> > person!

>

> I don't "think" I am liberated. I _know_ that everyone is. "The

> mind is the

> cause of bondage and liberation", it is said. We are already free, we are

> already Buddhas, we are already Sat, we are already Brahman. It

> is just the

> ego that makes it hard to see. It is very Piscean to tell people how hard,

> or nearly impossible, it is to be free, to be beautiful, to be

> blissful. How

> hard it is to reach God, who is everywhere. That we are, since

> you mentioned

> it, "sinful".

>

 

Everyone liberated? Of course on one platform of knowledge everyone is

eternally liberated, but bondage is experienced by practically everyone.

One reason for this is that Krishna takes pleasure delivering lost souls

back to Him. The ignorance and bondage He has put us in by His illusory

energy is real (as is His illusory energy), and temporary, and it cannot be

counteracted by theoretical knowledge. The jnani may see everyone as

liberated, but the bhakta loudly chants the Lords name for the benefit of

fallen souls, and for the pleasure of Krishna. The result of jnana is

salvation, but the result of bhakti is love of God. Compared to the ocean

of bliss that is prema-bhakti, the hapiness of jnana is like the water

contained in the footprint of a calf.

 

 

> What did Krishna say in the Bhagavad Gita? "Those who chant My name with

> love can buy Me very cheaply". What did Vasishta tell Rama? "Take away a

> person's ego and only God remains." Why think God is far and

> unreachable? If

> He weren't right here, within all of us, we would stand no chance of ever

> attaining Him.

>

 

Krishna told Arjuna that we are brahman and that we should surrender to Him

because He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He also told Arjuna that

his enemies were sinful and that if Arjuna didn't kill them there would be

no benefit because Krishna had already arranged their deaths.

It's interesting that you mention Vasistha. I studied Vasistha's Yoga

intensely for a couple of years, right up until Krishna asserted His reality

to me, overshadowing Vasistha's instructions to Rama. Vasistha's teachings

to Rama are not practical for us because Ramacandra is the Personality of

Godhead, whereas we are not. This is a very important distinction, and is

often missed by jnanis.

The reason to think of God as far and unreachable is that devotional

service in separation produces a higher grade of love of God than devotional

service performed where Krishna is personally present. Krishna often

separates Himself from Srimati Radharani just to invoke this higher rasa.

 

 

> About sin... where is there sin in God? If so many yoga paths

> have something

> in common, it is the knowledge and experience of the fact that

> only God IS,

> and there is nothing beyond that. Sin and virtue are constructs

> of the mind,

> they are dual notions. Duality is not divinity. So if we agree that

> everything is One, where do we see sin in it? It is said in the Vedas -

>

> Om purnamadam purnamidam - Om, this is perfect, that is perfect

> Purnat purnamudacyate - From the perfect springs the

> perfect

> Purnasya purnamadaya - If from the perfect the

> perfect is

> taken

> Purnamevavasisyate - The perfect remains.

 

 

Everything is in God, and yet there are His internal energy, His external

energy, and His marginal energy. His internal energy constitutes spiritual

nature, His external energy constitutes material nature, and His marginal

energy constitutes the living entities, us.

Your translation is like what I used to see when I read books translated by

people who tend to glorify Krishna's brahmajyoti more than Krishna Himself.

Srila Prabhupada also translated it: "The Personality of Godhead is perfect

and complete, and because He is completely perfect, all emanations from Him,

such as this phenomenal world, are perfectly equipped as complete wholes.

Whatever is produced of the Complete Whole is also complete in itself.

Because He is the Complete Whole, even though so many complete units emanate

from Him, He remains the complete balance."

Even still, as there are grades of knowledge within the truth, there are

grades of truth in the Vedas. The Absolute Truth is full of spirutual

variagatedness, and the invocation to Isopanisad is introduction to the

Truth, and while its truth is without question, it must be understood in the

context of the Vedas as they are, without misleading interpretation.

Isopanisad culminates in the speaker asking the Lord to move aside His

brahman effulgence so that he may see the form of the Personality of

Godhead. This gives clear information that brahman is not considered

valuable to the devotee, who does not want any obstacle obscuring his vision

of the Lord. The devotee does not ask the Lord for the ability to see

himself; he asks to see the Lord's beautiful form. The final obstacle to

devotional service and to obtaining the the Lord's personal form within

one's vision is the brahmajyoti, which invites a person to believe "I am the

Supreme. There is no God other than I," and look no further.

The Lord states in Sri Caitanya Caritamrta, "tanre `nirvisesa' kahi,

cic-chakti na mani, ardha-svarupa na manile purnata haya hani:" "When we

speak of the Supreme as impersonal, we deny His spiritual potencies.

Logically, if you accept half of the truth, you cannot understand the

whole." In this case the statement "everything is One" is incomplete. The

Lord states the Absolute Truth is "acintya-bhedaabheda-tattva,"

"inconceivable oneness and difference." Noting Oneness without mentioning

spiritual variagetedness is incomplete.

 

 

 

>

> There is greater force in reminding someone that they are perfect, than it

> is in telling them they are sinners. "You are perfect - behave up to it" -

> versus - "You are a sinner, you don't deserve to see God".

> Milarepa used to

> be a murderer before becoming a saint... "I bow to you, for you

> are a Buddha

> to be", used to say Avalokiteshvara to everyone.

 

If a person is misbehaving, it is inappropriate to tell them they are

perfect, because again it is incomplete. It is better to say, "You are

perfect, and it would be much better if you were to show it by behaving

perfectly." Greatness is not a matter of one's identity, but of the quality

of one's activity. When we see someone engaging in nonsense, that's not the

time to compliment them. Practically everyone is serving their senses

instead of engaging their senses in the service of Krishna. Telling them

they are perfect will not help them unless they are instructed on how to act

perfectly.

 

>

> Of course the ego gets in the middle and doesn't let one see their own

> Self... That is why we do KY, we chant, we meditate, we receive Shaktipat,

> we live in ashrams, we do seva - not to become God, because we already are

> one with Him, but to help get rid of the ego. "You plus ego is

> not you. You

> minus ego is God", says Yogi Bhajan.

>

 

Of the five types of liberation, Oneness with God is the only one that is

totally unacceptable to Vaishnavas. And the actual fact is that "You minus

ego" isn't God; "You minus ego" is brahman. The Absolute Truth is realized

in three stages: brahman, Paramatma, and Bhagavan. Lose the ego, and there

is no opportunity to realize God, Bhagavan.It's not ego that is undesirable;

false ego is undesirable. The false ego thinks "I am the Lord," or "I am

one with the Lord." It is a misinterpretation of one's constitutional

position or an incomplete perception of one's constitutional position. The

genuine ego thinks "I am the Lord's servant."

 

Hari bol

Paul

[Guest guest]

Dear Paul and Friends,

 

I have greatly enjoyed this discussion. We could certainly go on with it for

a very long time... No matter how much we agree or disagree, there is

unmistakable sweetness in talking about such themes. The sweetness of Hari

Bol. (as an aside, I think Bob thought Hari Bol was the name of someone on

the list - Hari Bol means "Sing the name of Hari (the Lord)" and is often

used as a salutation).

 

The world is as you see it, and we all speak from our own experiences, which

may well be different. But I think we are here for the same purpose,

ultimately. If I choose to stress the potential over the limitations it is

simply because there is no dearth of people who will remind you of your

limitations. We hear that all the time. I am looking, as Littlebird said

rightly, for a balance (I am a Libra, what can I do!). So I am trying to

remind people of what they are only rarely told - that in their innermost

being perfection dwells in all its radiance, and everyone has the chance to

discover it in this life. Hope and faith - in yourself, and in God - are I

think key ingredients.

 

About comparing "spiritual progress" - yes it is an insidious tendency.

Which is why it is good to remember that the same core of bliss and

perfection dwells within all of us. Even if you can't see it, still know it

is there. Then you won't need to compare yourself with anyone... I stopped

making comparisons quite a while ago. I was meditating one day and nothing

much happened. I came out of it and thought, "Hm, and other people see

lights and visions..." It was just a passing thought (I knew meditation is

not about seeing lights). I went back to meditation and had barely closed my

eyes when I heard a loud "bang". I looked out the window and there were

fireworks! Talk about seeing lights... So I think I got the point then.

 

Love and blessings,

Satsang Kaur

[Guest guest]

Dear Satsang Kaur,

.. (as an aside, I think Bob thought Hari Bol was the name of someone on

the list - Hari Bol means "Sing the name of Hari (the Lord)" and is often

used as a salutation).

 

I did think Hari Bol was Paul's spiritual name, and thank you very much for

telling me the real meaning. It's a wonderful salutation, and becoming more

so each day (for me). Thank you also for expanding on the theme of spiritual

comparisons. I know that everything is happening just as it should, but

there are still times when the monkey wants a bigger banana.

Sat Nam,

Bob

 

"Blinded by Delight"....Jim Snyder

[Guest guest]

Satsang Kaur prabhu,

 

I'm glad you've taken our exchange in a healthy mood. I think it's healthy

to answer a friendly challenge, even when it may seem a little intense.

Thanks for that exercise. At least one person felt offended, but I've had

my words and so I'll go my own way. I don't want to get Leslie in trouble.

 

sincerely,

Paul

 

p.s. When one of his disciples told Srila Prabhupada that they saw lights

and visions when they meditated, he replied, "Keep chanting 'hare krishna'

and they'll go away." Lights are fun though, sometimes.

 

 

 

 

>

> Satsang Kaur [satsang]

> Monday, July 16, 2001 10:11 PM

> Kundaliniyoga

> Re: samadhi

>

>

> Dear Paul and Friends,

>

> I have greatly enjoyed this discussion. We could certainly go on

> with it for

> a very long time... No matter how much we agree or disagree, there is

> unmistakable sweetness in talking about such themes. The sweetness of Hari

> Bol. (as an aside, I think Bob thought Hari Bol was the name of someone on

> the list - Hari Bol means "Sing the name of Hari (the Lord)" and is often

> used as a salutation).

>

> The world is as you see it, and we all speak from our own

> experiences, which

> may well be different. But I think we are here for the same purpose,

> ultimately. If I choose to stress the potential over the limitations it is

> simply because there is no dearth of people who will remind you of your

> limitations. We hear that all the time. I am looking, as Littlebird said

> rightly, for a balance (I am a Libra, what can I do!). So I am trying to

> remind people of what they are only rarely told - that in their innermost

> being perfection dwells in all its radiance, and everyone has the

> chance to

> discover it in this life. Hope and faith - in yourself, and in God - are I

> think key ingredients.

>

> About comparing "spiritual progress" - yes it is an insidious tendency.

> Which is why it is good to remember that the same core of bliss and

> perfection dwells within all of us. Even if you can't see it,

> still know it

> is there. Then you won't need to compare yourself with anyone... I stopped

> making comparisons quite a while ago. I was meditating one day and nothing

> much happened. I came out of it and thought, "Hm, and other people see

> lights and visions..." It was just a passing thought (I knew meditation is

> not about seeing lights). I went back to meditation and had

> barely closed my

> eyes when I heard a loud "bang". I looked out the window and there were

> fireworks! Talk about seeing lights... So I think I got the point then.

>

> Love and blessings,

> Satsang Kaur

>

>

> "OUR DESTINY IS TO BE HAPPY"

> - Yogi Bhajan

>

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