Meat, Leather, Plants, Caffeine

[Guest guest]

Hello Everyone,

 

I have been reading what others have to say about vegetarianism.

I have many thoughts about these things but am not sure really

where I stand on them all. Maybe you could help.

 

So, a true vegetarian would not own ANY products made from

animals such as leather shoes, purse, wallet, coats, anything

in your car or house made of leather?

 

I also wonder about this: In a book, The Secret Life of Plants,

they say that plants have a consciousness and even the THOUGHT

of a person cutting their leaves off strikes fear in them. They

are THAT sensitive. How would a vegetarian respond to this point?

On one hand you could say that God put plants here for us to

eat but could that not be said about animals also? Maybe the only

real safe way to eat fruits and vegetables is when they have

naturally fallen off the tree and we pick it up and eat it as a

gift from nature?

 

Obviously, most of us have to eat SOMETHING. I certainly agree

that meat slows one down and limits higher consciousness to a

degree. I am not certain how significant the karma is for eating

it is though. Would it be equal to killing a human? Less? But

more than killing plants? All things contain God in them so,

would robbing the life of anything could be considered bad karma?

"Thou Shalt Not Kill" is a rather broad statement.

 

Also I was wondering about caffeine. Isn't their caffeine in Yogi

Tea the way YB calls for it to be made? Or is it a matter of degree?

If so, could we just eat a little bit of meat or own just one pair

of leather shoes? Is the karma incurred for these things equal to

the attainment of the one doing it? In other words, a true master

would accrue much more karma for eating meat than say someone who

has never heard of vegetarianism or is ignorance of the law no

excuse?

 

I really appreciate any light you all could shed on these topics and

welcome all viewpoints.

 

Peace,

 

Randy

[Guest guest]

Hello!

 

 

I think your questions are really good and I'd like to try to answer from my

perspective, being a vegetarian.

>

>

> Hello Everyone,

>

> I have been reading what others have to say about vegetarianism.

> I have many thoughts about these things but am not sure really

> where I stand on them all. Maybe you could help.

>

> So, a true vegetarian would not own ANY products made from

> animals such as leather shoes, purse, wallet, coats, anything

> in your car or house made of leather?

 

 

Yes, that is true. Our personal philosophy is that if something we need is

at all available to us in non animal sources we will regect the animal

source. If leather were to come for an animal that died naturally (without

inflicted violence) that would be OK with me. But, as it stands in our

culture right now a lot of animals are killed everyday and it is violent and

cruel, not done with honor or true need, and on top of it the animals live

tortured lives, seemingly half dead from the time they are born which is a

great offence to inflict on another living being. An example of how we have

had to compromise is with hiking boots. We tried the vegetarian kind, but

they were hopelessly not water proof. So, We use leather boots for hiking

because at times such footwear is required for us. So, it is really a

personal dance with what is right for you.

 

 

>

> I also wonder about this: In a book, The Secret Life of Plants,

> they say that plants have a consciousness and even the THOUGHT

> of a person cutting their leaves off strikes fear in them. They

> are THAT sensitive. How would a vegetarian respond to this point?

> On one hand you could say that God put plants here for us to

> eat but could that not be said about animals also? Maybe the only

> real safe way to eat fruits and vegetables is when they have

> naturally fallen off the tree and we pick it up and eat it as a

> gift from nature?

 

Great book! I would give two answers to that question. One is that when we

offer our food to God it is spiritualized and we have read in scripture and

believe that God prefers vegetarian food. The second and more practically

understood point is that it is impossible to live on this earth without

causing death. Suffering and death go hand and hand with this life. So I

have no hopes of not seeming to be the cause of death for plants. But, I do

try to cause the least amount of harm I can. Animals are much higher on the

food chain, so they eat a lot of plants to grow and then if we eat them we

are eating a lot of plants and an animal. People have eaten animals in a

lot of cultures, and perhaps that was OK, especially when people truly

honored the spirit of the animal. But I don't think we should delude

ourselves that things are still that way. Slaughterhouses are a modern

invention and cause a tremendous amount of suffering, disease, and death.

There is nothing honorable or noble or respectful about it.

 

I've read the book you are referring to, and we have quite a lot of plants

that we work very closely with. Plants are very sensative and we do

communicate with them. When we harvest herbs and plants for eating, I don't

think those plants are all that terrified. They do benefit from being

injested by humans. It is part of the circle of life. We are made up of

what we eat, so the consciousness of plants is a part of us. I don't like

to think about what it is like to merge with the consciousness of an animal

that has lived its life in torment and died in a state of terror. I do

acknowledge that it seems some people are meant to eat meat at this time in

their lives. It can aid in being grounded for some. But, I really

encourage people to eat animals that had better lives, whose meat is

considered organic or close to it. I think that does help a lot. For that

matter, we eat organic fruits, vegetables, and grains as well.

 

 

>

> Obviously, most of us have to eat SOMETHING. I certainly agree

> that meat slows one down and limits higher consciousness to a

> degree. I am not certain how significant the karma is for eating

> it is though. Would it be equal to killing a human? Less? But

> more than killing plants? All things contain God in them so,

> would robbing the life of anything could be considered bad karma?

> "Thou Shalt Not Kill" is a rather broad statement.

>

 

I'm not sure about the karmic reaction. Some people feel that if you kill a

cow you will return as a cow and be killed. Personally I don't have a deep

understanding about how that all works, I think it is mysterious. I do

think that it is good to minimize the harm we do in our lives, and that has

practical benefits like improving the condition of the earth and world

hunger.

 

 

> Also I was wondering about caffeine. Isn't their caffeine in Yogi

> Tea the way YB calls for it to be made? Or is it a matter of degree?

> If so, could we just eat a little bit of meat or own just one pair

> of leather shoes? Is the karma incurred for these things equal to

> the attainment of the one doing it? In other words, a true master

> would accrue much more karma for eating meat than say someone who

> has never heard of vegetarianism or is ignorance of the law no

> excuse?

>

 

That is a good question. From what I've heard the small amount of black tea

in Yogi Tea is good medicinally. The caffeine dosage would be extremely

small. Personally I don't put it in, nor do I practice yoga on a sheepskin.

So, maybe it would be interesting to hear the opinions of some of us here

that do. Like I said, I do have one pair of leather shoes, though. I think

the karmic reaction to meat eating and such activities would feel more

pronounced to someone who is the master type you speak of if only because

they are more sensative to it. People who are heavily entrenched in maya or

whatever it is that results in the position of not being at all interested

in spiritual life, seem to not notice those kinds of things very much.

Perhaps they do at some other time in the future or whatever it is, but they

don't seem too concerned with the spiritual debt they place themselves in or

maybe just aren't seeing through the layers they have placed around

themselves for whatever reason. I hope I'm not rambling too much here, but

it seems like a subtle point.

 

> I really appreciate any light you all could shed on these topics and

> welcome all viewpoints.

>

> Peace,

>

> Randy

>

 

Good luck in your quest for understanding.

 

Jaya Radhe,

 

Love Always,

 

littlebird Leslie

AKA Guru Chiter Kaur

[Guest guest]

I have been a vegetarian for the past five years or so, even going as far as

eating only raw and living foods (sprouted seeds, nuts and beans). It was

necessary for awhile and it helped me to open up to spiritual energy and to

become more sensitive to energy. I work as a professional psychic counselor

and healer here in Hawaii.

 

Almost one year ago, I had a very significent kundalini rising experience

and felt quite out of balance for awhile, so I added some cooked food to my

raw food diet. It helped a bit, but I still felt a lot of nervous energy

running through me. Then recently I went of a Candida Program and started

adding cooked beans to my diet. Some beans do not digest well and my

digestion was already weak to begin with (which is why I went on an all raw

diet in the first place - all enzymes are in tact).

 

I decided to add some fish to my diet. It digested better than beans and I

felt more grounded than I have in a long time. I tried not to focus on how

yuckky it would be to eat a dead animal. Instead, I blessed my food. I

thanked the fish for giving up its life to nourish me. I thanked its soul

and sent light to it with good wishes that it continue to learn, love and

grow upon its chosen path of evolution. I affirmed that I only wanted to

pick the higher vibrations of the fish, its love and freedom and

peacefulness. Any fear that the fish may have had I sent light to and

visualized it being transformed within the light. I sent Reiki to my meal

through this process and then I ate the fish. I felt fine, a little

stronger than I have in a long time and I have no ill feelings or regrets.

Also, my readings and healings are the same. I probably really needed that

concentrated protein because readings and healings do take a lot of energy

to do.

 

My personal feeling is that people need different diets, at different times

in their lives, but they must tune into their bodies to know what it needs.

A lot of vegetarians are unbalanced and flightly and a lot are not. My main

accomplishment with adding fish to my diet, if even for a short while was to

get over my JUDGING it and the narrow mindedness that sometimes accompanies

vegetarian mindstreams (myself included).

--------------------

 

>

[Guest guest]

Hi,

 

These are complex questions for sure. In reference to caffeine, the main problem

with is it is a central nervous system stimulant. Originally it

was only used for medicinal purposes. Science has discovered that a small amount

of caffeine - it works out to about 1/4 to 1/3 a cup of coffee

for me - stimulates neuro-transmitter production without having the stimulant

effect on the central nervous system. This is probably why it shows

up in small amounts in a lot of traditional recipes.

 

I agree with the comments about the leather. It is unfortunate but our culture

simply has not produced much in the way of non-leather shoes and so

forth. Hopefully, as more people become vegetarian and demand it, a quality

industry will grow up and there will be good, high quality,

fashionable clothing without leather. However, for now, leather and animal

byproducts are used everywhere, often in places you would have never

thought of - whatch out for gelitin caps! So you do your best and figure out

what you can do without going crazy.

 

Sheepskins are definately a controversy. The traditional yogic view is that it

protects the magnetic field of the practitioner. It is also said

that if you meditate on an animal skin - as long as you are not party to the

death of the animal - it is possible to liberate the soul of the

animal that was once living in that skin. Of course in today's market driven

economy it is tough to decide whether or not you are party to the

animals death when you buy the skin...consumer demand etc.

 

Which brings us to the point about plants and animals. As anyone who has pets

knows, animals definately have souls. And anyone who works with

plants knows, plants definately have a consciousness, as does everything in

creation. One of the interesting distinctions, however, is that when

you kill an animal that creature is dead, period. Plants however, can regenerate

themselves. They have a kind of group consciousness that is

expressing itself through the fruit or vegetable or grain or nut that we eat.

Its essence is in it seed and it constantly regenerates itself

accordingly. It is therefore not so easy to actually "kill" a plant.

 

Seva Simran

 

littlebird108 wrote:

 

> Hello!

>

> I think your questions are really good and I'd like to try to answer from my

> perspective, being a vegetarian.

> >

> >

> > Hello Everyone,

> >

> > I have been reading what others have to say about vegetarianism.

> > I have many thoughts about these things but am not sure really

> > where I stand on them all. Maybe you could help.

> >

> > So, a true vegetarian would not own ANY products made from

> > animals such as leather shoes, purse, wallet, coats, anything

> > in your car or house made of leather?

>

> Yes, that is true. Our personal philosophy is that if something we need is

> at all available to us in non animal sources we will regect the animal

> source. If leather were to come for an animal that died naturally (without

> inflicted violence) that would be OK with me. But, as it stands in our

> culture right now a lot of animals are killed everyday and it is violent and

> cruel, not done with honor or true need, and on top of it the animals live

> tortured lives, seemingly half dead from the time they are born which is a

> great offence to inflict on another living being. An example of how we have

> had to compromise is with hiking boots. We tried the vegetarian kind, but

> they were hopelessly not water proof. So, We use leather boots for hiking

> because at times such footwear is required for us. So, it is really a

> personal dance with what is right for you.

>

> >

> > I also wonder about this: In a book, The Secret Life of Plants,

> > they say that plants have a consciousness and even the THOUGHT

> > of a person cutting their leaves off strikes fear in them. They

> > are THAT sensitive. How would a vegetarian respond to this point?

> > On one hand you could say that God put plants here for us to

> > eat but could that not be said about animals also? Maybe the only

> > real safe way to eat fruits and vegetables is when they have

> > naturally fallen off the tree and we pick it up and eat it as a

> > gift from nature?

>

> Great book! I would give two answers to that question. One is that when we

> offer our food to God it is spiritualized and we have read in scripture and

> believe that God prefers vegetarian food. The second and more practically

> understood point is that it is impossible to live on this earth without

> causing death. Suffering and death go hand and hand with this life. So I

> have no hopes of not seeming to be the cause of death for plants. But, I do

> try to cause the least amount of harm I can. Animals are much higher on the

> food chain, so they eat a lot of plants to grow and then if we eat them we

> are eating a lot of plants and an animal. People have eaten animals in a

> lot of cultures, and perhaps that was OK, especially when people truly

> honored the spirit of the animal. But I don't think we should delude

> ourselves that things are still that way. Slaughterhouses are a modern

> invention and cause a tremendous amount of suffering, disease, and death.

> There is nothing honorable or noble or respectful about it.

>

> I've read the book you are referring to, and we have quite a lot of plants

> that we work very closely with. Plants are very sensative and we do

> communicate with them. When we harvest herbs and plants for eating, I don't

> think those plants are all that terrified. They do benefit from being

> injested by humans. It is part of the circle of life. We are made up of

> what we eat, so the consciousness of plants is a part of us. I don't like

> to think about what it is like to merge with the consciousness of an animal

> that has lived its life in torment and died in a state of terror. I do

> acknowledge that it seems some people are meant to eat meat at this time in

> their lives. It can aid in being grounded for some. But, I really

> encourage people to eat animals that had better lives, whose meat is

> considered organic or close to it. I think that does help a lot. For that

> matter, we eat organic fruits, vegetables, and grains as well.

>

> >

> > Obviously, most of us have to eat SOMETHING. I certainly agree

> > that meat slows one down and limits higher consciousness to a

> > degree. I am not certain how significant the karma is for eating

> > it is though. Would it be equal to killing a human? Less? But

> > more than killing plants? All things contain God in them so,

> > would robbing the life of anything could be considered bad karma?

> > "Thou Shalt Not Kill" is a rather broad statement.

> >

>

> I'm not sure about the karmic reaction. Some people feel that if you kill a

> cow you will return as a cow and be killed. Personally I don't have a deep

> understanding about how that all works, I think it is mysterious. I do

> think that it is good to minimize the harm we do in our lives, and that has

> practical benefits like improving the condition of the earth and world

> hunger.

>

> > Also I was wondering about caffeine. Isn't their caffeine in Yogi

> > Tea the way YB calls for it to be made? Or is it a matter of degree?

> > If so, could we just eat a little bit of meat or own just one pair

> > of leather shoes? Is the karma incurred for these things equal to

> > the attainment of the one doing it? In other words, a true master

> > would accrue much more karma for eating meat than say someone who

> > has never heard of vegetarianism or is ignorance of the law no

> > excuse?

> >

>

> That is a good question. From what I've heard the small amount of black tea

> in Yogi Tea is good medicinally. The caffeine dosage would be extremely

> small. Personally I don't put it in, nor do I practice yoga on a sheepskin.

> So, maybe it would be interesting to hear the opinions of some of us here

> that do. Like I said, I do have one pair of leather shoes, though. I think

> the karmic reaction to meat eating and such activities would feel more

> pronounced to someone who is the master type you speak of if only because

> they are more sensative to it. People who are heavily entrenched in maya or

> whatever it is that results in the position of not being at all interested

> in spiritual life, seem to not notice those kinds of things very much.

> Perhaps they do at some other time in the future or whatever it is, but they

> don't seem too concerned with the spiritual debt they place themselves in or

> maybe just aren't seeing through the layers they have placed around

> themselves for whatever reason. I hope I'm not rambling too much here, but

> it seems like a subtle point.

>

> > I really appreciate any light you all could shed on these topics and

> > welcome all viewpoints.

> >

> > Peace,

> >

> > Randy

> >

>

> Good luck in your quest for understanding.

>

> Jaya Radhe,

>

> Love Always,

>

> littlebird Leslie

> AKA Guru Chiter Kaur

>

> "OUR DESTINY IS TO BE HAPPY"

> - Yogi Bhajan

>

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Meditation. Also Meditation & Mantra CDs.

>

> Your use of is subject to

[Guest guest]

I agree. I must admit that I was never vegan, but I came close about six

years ago. About four years ago I moved and vegetarian choices were more

limited so I have added fish to my diet, but no other meats. I have no guilt

doing so. It was just something I had to do. It has also been beneficial for

me healthwise because being hypoglycemic I needed to add more protein to my

diet. I believe I still generally eat low on the food chain and support local

agriculture by belonging to a local CSA that is low spray and buying as much

organic produce as possible. But I also try to be nonjudgmental regarding

people I know who choose to eat meat. That is their choice. I only wish they

would be as nonjudgmental about my choices.

 

Namaste,

 

Myra

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

(snip)

> My personal feeling is that people need different

> diets, at different times

> in their lives, but they must tune into their bodies

> to know what it needs.

> A lot of vegetarians are unbalanced and flightly and

> a lot are not. My main

> accomplishment with adding fish to my diet, if even

> for a short while was to

> get over my JUDGING it and the narrow mindedness

> that sometimes accompanies

> vegetarian mindstreams (myself included).

 

Here's where you hit the nail square on the head.

Bravo!

 

So many of us spend or have spent so much time on the

vegetarian quandry (myself included) but in my

PERSONAL opinion (whatever that's worth) it all comes

down to treading as lightly on the Earth as possible.

 

 

I have been predominantly vegetarian for over 10

years. I used to be vegan, but despite eating as

properly and carefully as possible, my body simply was

not healthy on a vegan diet. After much

soul-searching and many tears, in order to regain and

maintain my health I have had to add limited dairy,

eggs and VERY LIMITED amounts of fish and poultry to

my diet. This was VERY hard for me to do from an

ethical standpoint as veganism was something I felt

very strongly about.

 

But...the unfortunate fact is that (unless you have a

beloved dairy cow in your back yard and a few laying

hens) to support the dairy industry also means

supporting the meat industry. For every few gallons

of milk or dairy consumed, there is a dead veal calf.

For every egg-laying hen, there is a proportionate

number of slaughtered 'fryers'--and talk about

unhumane treatment--laying hens get some of the worst!

It's an unfortunate thing. Does that mean that we

should all just give up and eat steak and fried

chicken? I don't think so. It's just that we have to

understand and have compassion for where our food

comes from.

 

As far as leather/non-leather goods and synthetic

wools, etc are concerned... yes, there are direct

ramifications from the slaughter of cattle to obtain

leather, but there are also serious environmental

ramifications from the production of vinyl, plastics

and other synthetics--so to wear these products also

causes harm--perhaps on an even more global scale.

Mass production cotton grower dump pesticides and

fertilizers on their crops and these chemicals leach

into soil and groundwater. Logging for lumber, wood

and paper causes the deaths of numerous creatures

every day. Support any of these and you are

intrinsicly (albeit very indirectly) involved in

suffering.

 

My point is, as so many people have said, there is

almost NO WAY to exist on this earth causing NO harm.

What we should try to do is to ALWAYS strive to do as

LITTLE harm as possible--and then as Jason says,

suspend our judgements.

 

Eat low on the food chain. If your body thrives on a

pure, vegetarian diet, by all means do so. If not,

each just enough of what you need to be healthy and

don't beat yourself up about it. Offer a blessing,

thanks and gratitude for your food, whatever it is--as

whether grain, leaf or beast, it is a gift of the

earth and should be taken with reverence.

 

Buy organic whenever possible--food, clothing,

whatever you can. Buy in bulk and from local growers

if possible to cut down on pollution caused by

transporting. Recycle your trash. Recycle your

clothes. Pre-cycle. Ashew unnecessary packaging.

Shop at thrift stores. Take your own shopping bags

wherever you go. Use natural cleaners instead of

toxic chemicals. Use natural soaps, shampoos that

don't test on animals. Volunteer in your community.

Feed the homeless.......

 

....and pray and meditate on peace.....

 

It goes on and on (and yes, I'm stepping off my

soapbox now)...but my point is that if more people did

just a little bit more, there would be so much less

suffering on this planet. Vegetarians forget

sometimes that it's not just the slaughter of animals

that equals suffering.

 

I guess I really got a bit carried away, this topic

just struck a chord with me. I tried to ignore the

thread, but I just couldn't maintain and had to get in

my .02 cents.

 

Sat Nam, Peace and Blessings,

--Mel

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Hi y'all,

 

I just wanted to add my little bit as everyone else seems to be doing so.

If people on planet earth learned to be more tolerant of each other,

and non judgemental about other people's choices, the world would be a

far happier place for all. One shouldn't judge until one has walked in

another person's shoes. We are all at different stages, have different

lessons to learn, and one of the lessons in life many of us have to learn

is humility - to give up the notion that we know best for everyone else.

That is arrogance, pure and simple.

 

Love and blessings,

Avtar Kaur

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