Guest guest Posted January 4, 2003 Report Share Posted January 4, 2003 In practical terms, if we are to avoid similar excess in the future, we must acknowledge that it does not matter one whit what scripture says or what the good people of this list think. What matters is what those villagers believe and think. They're the ones with the knives, and the neighbors of potential victims. I see zero attempt to enter into dialog with them, and therefor I see no reason to assume such excesses will not occur again. I fear for India. Even now she flaunts an absolute genius to ignore poverty, be it physical, intellectual or spiritual...or even logical: ....and wallows in a weird self-righteousness that allows untouchables to be lynched (this happened in December 2002) for conveying dead cows from one place to another (the common assumption, unchecked of course, that the cows were freshly killed). It is my understanding that there exists a grain surplus...yet millions starve... India, this is very sad. I fear for you. s Kali_Ma, samvidaananda natha <samvidaananda> wrote: > > Sree mathre namah > dear sri krishnan, > my hearty congratulations for an irrefutable and an impregnable retort for the said scribe's ignoramous and whimsical remarks on Kalika purana. your brevity and and the tone of the content of your letter has to be acclaimed. the logic is firm and irrefutableand also unimpeachable. i once again congratulate on your acerbic reply. > That the practice of simplicity and patience is only the reason which we have got from our lineage of teachers, gurus, seers is established beyond doubt. but the dharma which we are safegaurding is all capable to sustain any such vehement abuse and malevolence as it has sustained innumerable attacks from the Kala yavanas (abbyssinians, people of central, afro, europe cultures) of the sri krishna period and later the mongols, turks, moslems, europians, and english and whom not. but the dharma is still alive and ever pure and it continues to be as the saying goes in sanskrit, > " Dharma eva hato hanti - Dharmo rakshati rakshitah" > people who do not keep or value Dharma would be vanquished and people who safe gaurd it are kept safe. > i am happy and we all should be happy that condemnation is the only solution for any abuse, whatsoever and whomsoever and whatever might the suject be. > always at the feet of my guru, > Samvidaananda saktha > > > Krishnan Kanna <kanna_krishnan@h...> wrote: > Hari Om Oz Yogiji, > > My humble salutation to all those who have read this interesting yet disappointing article. > > This article is not for the faint hearted in fact it could only satisfy those with no heart and mind as well, as it has a lot of area left unanswered showing the author did not have the heart to do Her own research before jumping into conclusion but rely on those who believe they understood better. > > > > With all due respect I do not think Samata Ullah knows what she is talking (or rather repeating like parrot about just like most who are fast to judge rather than to understand) Firstly her starting line refers to Kali as Goddess of Destruction. I do not know which scripture said so neither do Kali Purana nor Srimad Devi Bhagavatham , Devi Gita nor other related tantric shashtras said so at least not without inner meaning . The author stated Goddess of Destruction does she mean destruction of inner ego or destruction of the world or destruction of arising thought in our mind!!!!! > > But she is right to say many things are not known about this Goddess this is because many have not learnt under proper guru with proper understandings of the Sanskrit language. > > > > Firstly Kalika Purana is not a tantric book but a puranic book scripture. There is a vast difference between vedic, tantric and puranic scriptures. The shastras are divided into sruthi and smirthi. Thus we would not classify this purana as "divinely revealed". As a metaphor I would say vedas are the textbook and the puranic text are the glossary which helps its understanding. Whilst the tantrik text are those which is applicable today for practicality of this age. In Principle of Tantra Volume 1 Arthur Avalon have listed out the group of books that are still available then (most of tantra scriptures was lost even at his time) but now I wonder how many tantrikas would have read any one of them(those in that list). Arthur Avalon who translated Mahanirvana Tantra himself asserts in the foreword of the same book that he have not completely translated the entire Mahanirvana text itself. So what we have is a half-finished book. To understand more about tantra shahstra please refer to Sir Arthur Avalon books on the subject matter because today a lot of practitioners claim they are tantrikas without understanding the basic scripture of tantrism. > > An example is the author stated "in a tantrik book dedicated to Kali worship called Kalika Purana ". Mind you this is purana and there is a Kali Tantra book as well. Both are not the same! > > > > She stated "human sacrifice to appease Kali" . I admire the authors conviction that it appease Kali Maa as if she met Kali Maa yesterday in the market and Kali Maa told her…Even Bhagwan Ramakrishna Paramahamsa never made such a claim that Kali Maa was appease by human sacrifice ……….If her contention is the scripture say so than I would say if I write water on a paper and squeeze the paper will I get water. And if Maa was so appeased by what those did in reported case then I do not know why most of them end in jail or lost their loved one's……….. > > Please look further my dear author. When Bhagawan Ramakrishna wanted to offer himself she stopped him. When a Brahmana was offered to Her in Srimad Bhagavatham she arose and killed the offerers. When Kalidasa hit his head with view of taking his life for his dumbness on the Kali Maa temple she stopped him and gave him jnana siddhi. When Tenali Ramakrishnan had Her vision and laughed at the idea of Maa getting cold which nose she will sneeze (She gave darshan in form of Mahakali) with she gave him the boon of wisdom . All these people above offered their life at Her feet but She gave Her love instead. Why ??? > > > > Secondly I wonder why the author did not realize the thugees of British India are not hindus but muslims who was actually killing the wealthy man who happens to be British man who was squandering India once . I wonder why she did not talk of the possibility of the wisdom of governor then to get the public mass support who are largely Hindus this was propagated to catch the robbers and destroy the robbers. See how easy for me to create another speculation and use the historical circumstances to substantiate it . (Anyway I am not alone in this assertion some are already doing research in this area as well, even the text book principle of aryan – dravidian myth in India are being re-studied as it was written by researcher in post colonial era) > > Thirldy her citation of Bhagavad Gita 2;26-28 was not meant for this purpose (reincarnation cycle to justify human sacrifice!!!) .A proper guru from proper lineage would have corrected Her pre- conceived idea. This verse was not meant to justify human sacrifice at all. It is easy to take a statement of it's original context and interpret it according to one's own limited mind. It was meant to show the true inner soul does not die nor takes birth. Thus grieve of death was caused by attachment to the outer garment called body. In order for you to grieve you mind must have made perception based on the message sent by physical eyes (which is not the correct perception of reality) attachment between the physical body and the beginningless and endless Brahman who with the limitation are bound in the body as Atman . > > > > Even based on this doctrine alone it baffles me what is the purpose of sacrificing the body, blood, goat, animal etc. etc. made out of filth , liquid and mucus and why on earth will Maa be interested in that ??? Because if I am Her I will be more interested in the emancipation of soul rather than the body that is changed like clothes in each cycle of birth and death. Why would giving this cloth(body) that will go off anyway should please Her ………Strangely not a single author stated on the article have given a reason for that …………..Instead they have chosen to merely echo what is the rest of the authors stated ………….And non of them are from proper Guru parampara nor proper lineage ………… > > She stated "hindu fatalism plays important role in the mentality behind human sacrifice since people think they will see the sacrificed person again. Oh.my dear author this I believe is your own reasoning because none of the Hindus kill anybody thinking the reincarnation will work for them and they will meet back later . Because the reincarnation cycle works according to karma and by bad action you would be born lower and does not promise that you will meet the same person again………. > > > > She further stated" human sacrifice to Kali………….(which is not followed by all hindus ,only by choice by people who want to worship Devi, Durga better known as Kali) " . Once again the author have not gone to Dakhneswar temple nor Kalighat temple . A lot of people are under impression that the human sacrifice are stopped at Kalighat because of moral obligation .Why non have asked the priest who have followed traditional worship whether they have actually changed anything? If so why ? Every time there is will be a writer who claims there is evidence at Kalighat but they have not done proper research to back this claim .Yet the traditional priest do not do such things today. Bhagawan Ramakrishna worshiped Maa Kali did he offer human sacrifice ? Ramprasad prayed to Maa did he offer human sacrifice ? Kamalakanta prayed to Kali Maa ,did he offer human sacrifice? Actually we do not know but they didi not say so in any of their teaching to us did they ? The author have so many saints footstep to follow yet the author choose to use some person who offered a child !!!!!!!This is what happens without proper guru guidance. Today only those without proper guru lineage are offering blood (inetrpreting the text on their own) some even offer whatever they feel "nice" without thinking what is the end result they want to achieve( like liberation or pleasure for thousand years !!). They claim they love mother and following bhakthi path but they would have not read Narada Bhakthi Sutra or Sandilya Bhakthi Sutra nor Srimad Bhagavatham . Theirs is what I feel good I do attitude not backed up by scriptural authority or proper guru lineage . At kalima2 proper sanskrit interpretation are given in English including English transliteration of each mantras used in Kali Puja according to their tradition supported by other traditional scriptures like Chandi Path, Srimad Devi Bhagavatham and Devi Gita as well that is what ideally a traditional approach should be ……… > > > > Author said "Human sacrifice …………..practiced in vedic India ………………… a male child was sacrificed every Friday evening " was taken from Encyclopedia Britannica Standard Edition CD which clearly show that it is not even stated in Kalika Purana .Why Friday ? Why not no moon day or eclipse day only the encyclopedia writer knows the truth of this assertion not even the author!!!!! > > The 55 year old trader story had a lot of similarity with other religious fanatics in other religion .Ram Sevak was clearly not even doing what was stated in Kalika Purana like smear his body with blood, chopped of his daughters tongue and ate the flesh(where is this in Kalika Purana). Why can't one see this was not even according to literal interpretation of Kalika Purana ……………The story itself gave the real doer of the entire tragedy not interpretation of Kalika Purana by her loving devotee but supposedly spirit that possessed Chowhan's daughter in law !!!Look how the author has used it to make her point. This like saying Charles Manson followed bible to do what he did !!!! > > > > Then the author jumped to Mithun Naskar case and another religious fanatic was alleged to use Kalika Purana to achieve his objectives. And the list continues…………………….But did they follow the actual Kalika Purana text ? No! I will explain why below …….. > > > > The author than goes on to cite BR Ambedkar in his book" Riddles to Hinduism" to justify the literal translation of the Kalika Purana text itself. The author realizing BR Ambedkar is neither from proper religious institution nor from proper guru lineage what more in Kali or kaulic worship tradition uses his credibility as writer of modern constitution of India to justify his credibility in this interpretation. > > Every scriptural text has inner meaning which can only be realized by sadhana (spritual practice) guided by authentic guru .But instead this author have followed a layman interpretation . Have you heard a blind leading a blind? Next time I want to learn religious scripture I will look for a constitution writer to teach me ………The author would say Krishna has thousand lovers instead of gopis .Kartikeya has two views. Kali is naked .Ganesa is a god with elephant face .5 pandavas enjoyed one Draupadi……We can go on and on with literal interpretations but it will not give any spiritual significance to any one of us . Instead let us try to obtain the scripture and search for the true guru to lead us to true understanding .For your information Kalika Purana exist in the English translation today in 3 version , the Bengal version, the other Guhawathi edition( Biswanarayan Shahstri) and finally some chapter translation by Prof Van Kooij. None have worked on the inner meaning as of yet ………………… despite about 7 manuscripts existing in the world. > > > > > > Let me give you an example of what inner meaning means(shastra rahasyam) ; > > "Swami Satyananada in Kali Puja stated Raktabija ,who performed great austerities was awarded the boon that whenever a drop of his blood would touch the ground ,in that very same place a new Raktabija would be born with same vitality ,courage and strength ,the same capacity to captivate the mind. Rakta means red the color ,it also means the blood and passion most specifically it means a passion for something-Desire. Bija means the seed, Raktabija literally translates the Seed of Desire > > See how he manifest in action. In order to accomplish his desire ,he multiple into countless new desire with same intensity .the same capacity of captivating the mind, all of which seeks fulfillment as well .As we find a desire for one thing, one drop of blood has touched the ground and immediately, automatically a new something is required to fulfill that desire .Another drop. > > This goes on indefinitely, causing a continual necessity to act. Every time a Seed of Desire touches the ground ,a new Seed of desire is born in that same very place .Ultimately the entire earth has been filled with Seeds of Desire. > > Seeing this and understanding fully well the tremendous importance of and significance of all pervasiveness of desire, the gods became extremely dejected. In great alarm we all called the Divine Mother for help, "Oh Compassionate Kali, stick you your tongue and drink up all the desire of existence. Only your mouth has sufficient capacity to consume all desire. And when you will have digested all desires the gods will be free from desire " > > I do not know about the author but this makes more sense to me . If you gave this to the author she would have made a literal interpretation and it would have only depicted as Kali Ma `s favorite drink is blood juice !!!!! > > I myself have read what Rudhir Adhayay stated and working with my gurudeva hoping one day we could publish entire Kalika Purana with it's inner meaning but this will take some time but even in literal interpretation let us look at few points; > > The chapter is by Lord Shiva to his 3 sons Betal , Bhairavar and Bhairava not to you or me. Usually in nigama or agama shastras it will by Lord Shiva to Maa Parvathi or Maa Parvathi to Lord Shiva and there will be an indication it is for the disciple or devotees to follow . The author did not indicate whether it was for common lay men also or was it to only his 3 sons > There is reference to vaishnavi tantra thus it is only appropriate to look at Vaishnavi tantra text before interpreting the rudhir adhayay chapter . The author did not do this as well > "It is through sacrifice that prince obtains bliss heaven and victory over enemy" . The question to ask here do you consider an ordinary devotee a prince or is this applicable only to the princes or king of the country??? Author was not bother to research on this as well? > "The blood of…………….pleasure for one year………………human species produces pleasure of thousand year……………".As Maa Kali devotee are you seeking pleasure or moksha? What do you think Ramakrishna, Ramprasad was seeking was it pleasure or Her holy feet ? > I love the detail description but let us see another verse ; > "Let not Brahman ever offer a lion or tiger or his own blood ………..If a Brahman sacrifices either a lion a tiger or a man …….he goes to hell and passes but a short time in this world attended with misery and misfortune" > > > > The author should first distinguish the difference between Brahman, brahmin and brahman.Remember in Srimad Bhagavatham when a pure brahmana was offered to Kali Maa Her idol broke and She sprang out to kill Her devotees > > So now a prince only can do it and not even a brahman can offer man's blood not even his own to Maa Kali > > Brahmin ideally is he who seeks God .Thus those who seeks her for ultimate realization or darshan and not for pleasure alone like stated earlier goes to hell by such practice > > The next verse talks about Ksshatriya who could only" offer human shape with butter!!!! " > So you now got to be either a" vaisya (merchant) or a sudra to do this worship", not even tantrika who is from Brahmana sect can do offering. Anyway a tantrika is better of following tantrik text so I wonder in the case earlier are they real tantrikas. . At this point I wonder how would those English man and ladies Kali Maa devotees are classified as Brahmin, or Vaisya or sudras ? Who are interested can ask the author what caste are they if they are out of India and want to follow Kalika Purana or may be I should ask the constitutions writer again ??? > Now if you further read the text says ,"Brahman or chandalas cannot be offered nor kstariya" .That leaves only with vaishya the merchant but the next statement says," nor a father" so I wonder how was Ram Sevak who was a father could be sacrificed according to Kalika Purana when Kalika Purana do not allow it !!!!! > The text goes on to say " nor the one who is unwilling". Is the author saying Mithun Naskar was a willing one . Does that not sound absurd??? > "If human sacrifice is performed without consent of prince the performers incurs sin." I wander all those did in the story actually got confirmation from their prince or not . Author did not go into this as well as usual……………. > Only ministers and the prince can offer human sacrifice but "only at time of war". I did not realize any of the 2 cases before as prince nor at time of war…….. > The text also states "the blood must be drawn …….from a man pure in mind and body and free from fear……….." If the father did not have fear why he tried to move away?? > > The author than goes to the discussion of "himsa" and "ahimsa" but I suppose her understanding of ahimsa is limited to her reading of Gandhiji writing alone . Next she will say Mahabharatha war is himsa so is battle of Krurshetra and battle of Gods against asuras in all puranas are all himsa as well. > > Again the author said ," the Kali temple at Calcutta". There is no such temple as Kali Temple in Calcutta but a lot of Kali Maa temples here !!!!This shows the author have not even understood the Kali tradition well. The tradition continues for a reason unknown to the author and not to follow Kalika Purana alone ….The author feeling for goats is permissible unless she herself is busy eating chicken burger and hotdogs. But Bhagawan himself use to move away when sacrificial of goat is done for Maa Kali . The reason he gives is because he sees Maa even there but he do not ask other to refrain as well. Why is this because everybody is in his or her own spiritual evolution process. It would not be right to argue with the kindergarten boy that the world is round until he comes to level two in his schools when this is taught by his teacher .So Bhagawan refrain from taking part but never stopped others. When asked he explained the reason. On contrary the author did not do this with any of the Kali temple in Calcutta(seek the answer herself). She did not even ask but made her judgement based on others perception. > > Again the author did not show any direct evidence but stated Dr.Rajendralal Misra state there is an evidence but Dr.Rajendralal Misra then states his friend Babu Hemachandra Ker says it is performed in the eastern district of Bengal. His magistrate friend should no better because even in law this will not even be accepted as hearsay evidence and how do we know this is following Kalika Purana procedure and not some killing that is done in name sake of offering but actually with hidden agenda as we saw the cases cited was not following the text as well ……….. > > The part on question to Hindus near to be addressed ……………… > > The author does not understand what is Hinduism. She does not realize the basic tenets of Hinduism as well. She needs to study the Vedanta philosophy to see the one in all and all in one first. This is what happen if you do not go through proper learning process but merely read whatever you get you hands on…………. > > The conception of Aryan-Dravidian is being refuted now and does not hold water as it use to . Dear author please read the latest historical finding on this matter as your argument is based on all formulation. > > When Lord Krishna talked about all path he did not say in particular he talked about ahimsa or himsa .Her confusion on this principle is because of interpretation the scripture on Her own. The scripture would always look contradictory on the surface but deep inside they all will share the same basic tenets of truth to understand this she need to a proper guru guidance > > > > The author asserts that tantric practiced himsa while another part of Hinduism practice ahimsa First tantra brings realization by bhoga (transcending enjoyment of material world) and veda by yoga. The tantric do not do "injury" to obtain emancipation instead take the very things reviled and forbidden by the ordinary member of society because even to classify some thing as wrong you need to attach negativism to it . Thus the tantrika transcends the mind's limited perception of wrong and right and no proper tantrikas would continue taking them after the attachment is broken .If he continues than please understand that he is attached to it (might be worse than before ) . That is why practice of panca makara 5 forbidden act like eating meat, taking wine are the very thing done to transcend it .Because this 5 things was the very thing that was refrained by the society they lived in and looked to be the most wrong thing to be done . Bhagwan Ramakrishna use to say the tantra practice are like riding on tiger if you make a mistake and fall the tiger would eat you …. So pancha makara sadhana is not for all. How could you eat meat and say I am practicing pancha makara when you can go and buy them in market burn it slightly to retain the juice and eat them with your family for dinner. What is the effect of practicing coition when you do not lose your virginity by 28 you would be ridiculed by your very friends in the society. What is there to practice taking liquor when you can buy them in the nearest hypermarket and get drunk all night long. Those practice was very applicable before because these were the very thing refrain by society and tantrikas take them to transcend them not for mere pleasure alone .Can a beggars say he is equal to a monk who is seeking alms just because he has a same bowl in his hand as well ??? So you got to be careful before making blind conclusion. The end is the same the approach is different…………. > > The author refers to Kalighat temple but illustrated Dakhneswar Temple this show her eagerness to prove her point without proper illustration. Ironically Kenneth Wilson who cares so much for the goat might not mind wearing leather shoe and using leather crocodile wallet. In fact I would not be surprised the same Kenneth had turkey for Christmas and lamb for Easter as well. Please read Sister Elizabeth Usha Harding writing on this matter in her book. > > Again without any evidence the author points to Mr. Shanthi (usually Shanthi used for female ) stated the British stopped human sacrifice in 1821.But same British did Amritsar killing in Golden Temple . So this might be another speculation as well……………… > > The author have used the newspaper report to justify her claim and we could do the same for any sect or religion based tragedy as well (today the catholic church is having the same problem with their ministries - Maa please help my brothers over there to overcome their small problem in such a great religious institution) but mere report could not make any difference in spiritual evolution. > > Lord Jesusji when hanging on the cross prayed to God " Forgive them, O Lord for they do not know what they are doing " When the public cast the stone on the poor prostitute for sinning he asked who have not sinned before We all make mistake dear author but your ignorance is not an excuse . Please learn the traditional knowledge form those who are the real practitioners > > By following the steps of the Kali Ma saints like Annada Thakur ,Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, Ramprasad , Kamalakantha, Prahlad Chandra Bramachari we need not do this type of small sacrifice of pleasure to reach the highest summit of spiritual realization . Please read more about this devotees of Maa and what they have done for rest of Her Children in this world at kalima2 in their database . > > May Ma Kali bless us all in this spiritual endeavor! > > May the author understand the true nature of Maa Kali ! > > Your, > > Brave heart Son > > p/s ; Oz Yogiji I know the author is not you and thanks for doing some good job at kalima2 before .......... > > > > "God is both with form, formess and beyond !" - Bhagawan Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa > > > > Help STOP SPAM: Try the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > Sponsor > > > Kali_Ma > > > > Terms of Service. > www > > > > > With Mail you can get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2003 Report Share Posted January 5, 2003 Hari Om Samvidaananda Sakthaji , Jai Maa!! My humble salutation to your holy feet.Thank you for your inspiring words. All praises to Ma Saraswathy for I am only the instruments in Her hands............ Om ,Saha navavatu,saha nau bhunaktu saha viryam karavavahai tejasvinavadhitamastuma vidvisavahai. Om, May the Lord protect us.May the Lord grant us enjoyment of all actions.May we be granted strength to work together.May our studies be through and faihtful.May all our disgareement cease. Let us work together in upholding our dharmic way of life !!!! At Divine Feet of Guru , Om. >samvidaananda natha >Kali_Ma >Kali_Ma >Subject: Bravo >Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:52:00 +0000 (GMT) > > >Sree mathre namah >dear sri krishnan, > my hearty congratulations for an irrefutable and an impregnable retort for the said scribe's ignoramous and whimsical remarks on Kalika purana. your brevity and and the tone of the content of your letter has to be acclaimed. the logic is firm and irrefutableand also unimpeachable. i once again congratulate on your acerbic reply. > That the practice of simplicity and patience is only the reason which we have got from our lineage of teachers, gurus, seers is established beyond doubt. but the dharma which we are safegaurding is all capable to sustain any such vehement abuse and malevolence as it has sustained innumerable attacks from the Kala yavanas (abbyssinians, people of central, afro, europe cultures) of the sri krishna period and later the mongols, turks, moslems, europians, and english and whom not. but the dharma is still alive and ever pure and it continues to be as the saying goes in sanskrit, >" Dharma eva hato hanti - Dharmo rakshati rakshitah" >people who do not keep or value Dharma would be vanquished and people who safe gaurd it are kept safe. >i am happy and we all should be happy that condemnation is the only solution for any abuse, whatsoever and whomsoever and whatever might the suject be. >always at the feet of my guru, >Samvidaananda saktha MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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