Digest Number 109

December 5, 2000

Hi

Please let us not post anything against any Living ( or Non Living) Master

here. Let this egroup be a forum where people focus on Amma and Love God and

see the good in all. This is NOT the place to discuss the pros and cons of

other Gurus .

And as an aside, i have to say that many many Sai devotees are Amma devotees

too, and Sai Baba has sent people to Amma and VICE VERSA, and She gave a

mantra to a friend of mine ( who loves BOTH Sai and Amma and who is very

close to Her and constantly is helping people etc) that was 'applicable to

both' ( what he was told by a swami).

Also, many Sai devotees were the ones who helped Amma's first tour- Timothy

Conway who wrote the beautiful book 'Women of Power and Grace' mentions this

and is a Sai devotee.

I personally have been helped by Baba through dreams afew times in

'crisis' points- and even though Amma is my Guru and my Pathway , I remain

grateful for the advice.

I used to attend Sai centers regularly as much as Amma bhajans, and not once

did i come across any teaching that was contradictory to Amma and some of my

best friends are Sai devotees who spend their energy and time in so much

Seva.

We cannot judge any Mahatma, and we cannot ascertain whether rumours are

true.- and if i may add, it is none of our business.

We are here to see the GOOD in all, and please do not mention anything

against any Guru here. Many may be offended.

Our business is to Love Amma, Love all and do sadhana.

Forgive me if i sound strong, but yes i cant help it. Wjile i too have been

saddened by these rumors , i know for a fact that Amma has sent some people

to Sai Baba. That ends the matter for me. She would not send ANYONE in a

path She thought was less than Divine.

bala

>Ammachi

> Digest Number 109

>5 Dec 2000 14:24:13 -0000

>

>Aum Amriteswarayai Namaha!

>

>Ammachi-

>

>------

>

>There are 4 messages in this issue.

>

>Topics in this digest:

>

> 1. Re: Digest Number 108

> sprose1

> 2. Re: Digest Number 108

> DCarlin111

> 3. Re: Digest Number 108

> Ellen Lamb <jyotsna2

> 4. Re: Digest Number 108

> Rick Archer <rickhome

>

>______________________

>

>Message: 1

> Mon, 4 Dec 2000 19:23:08 EST

> sprose1

>Re: Digest Number 108

>

>Hey.

>

>Does anybody know if it is true that Ammachi had all the books refering to

>Sai Baba burned? I am sure everyone is aware that Baba has been charged

>with

>pederasty, and has been at it for years. Sorry to say, but we must face

>facts, right?

>

>______________________

>

>Message: 2

> Mon, 4 Dec 2000 19:50:25 EST

> DCarlin111

>Re: Digest Number 108

>

>In a message dated 12/4/00 7:24:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,

>sprose1

>writes:

>

><< Hey.

>

> Does anybody know if it is true that Ammachi had all the books refering

>to

> Sai Baba burned? I am sure everyone is aware that Baba has been charged

>with

> pederasty, and has been at it for years. Sorry to say, but we must face

> facts, right? >>

>I never heard of such a thing. What is pederasty anyway?!

>

>______________________

>

>Message: 3

> Mon, 4 Dec 2000 19:01:44 -0800 (PST)

> Ellen Lamb <jyotsna2

>Re: Digest Number 108

>

>Since I worked in the library at Amritapuri, I feel

>qualified to venture at least a partial answer here.

>Mother never allowed Sai Baba books in Her library.

>There were different reasons given for this, i.e.

>(1) The facilities are nicer there, and She's afraid

>people will go there instead of here. (Ha! I was

>actually told this though!) and (2) She doesn't have

>books on any other living masters. My suspicion was

>that there was a deeper reason, and it feels pretty

>confirmed by what you say. Years ago there was a book

>(Lord of the Air) about Sai Baba which said the same

>thing. I didn't like a lot it said, but I felt the

>author was being totally honest about that. I really

>have no knowledge about these things, only that Mother

>is my All in All, and I am so happy that is true.

>

>--- sprose1 wrote:

> > Hey.

> >

> > Does anybody know if it is true that Ammachi had all

> > the books refering to

> > Sai Baba burned? I am sure everyone is aware that

> > Baba has been charged with

> > pederasty, and has been at it for years. Sorry to

> > say, but we must face

> > facts, right?

> >

>

>Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.

>/

>

>______________________

>

>Message: 4

> Mon, 04 Dec 2000 22:40:55 -0600

> Rick Archer <rickhome

>Re: Digest Number 108

>

>Pederasty is having sex with boys. But who's to say it's true? Anyone can

>accuse another of anything. John Lennon accused Maharishi Mahesh Yogi of

>things which I know for a fact were not true.

>--

>Rick Archer

>Archer Graphics & Consulting

>618 Lindenwood Court

>Fairfield, IA 52556

>Phone: 515-472-9336

>

>Donate food free every day: http://www.thehungersite.com

>Save the Rain Forest everyday: http://www.saverainforest.net

>Help homeless animals for free: http://www.whitly.com

>

>Ellen Lamb <jyotsna2

>Ammachi

>Mon, 4 Dec 2000 19:01:44 -0800 (PST)

>Ammachi

>Re: Digest Number 108

>

>Since I worked in the library at Amritapuri, I feel

>qualified to venture at least a partial answer here.

>Mother never allowed Sai Baba books in Her library.

>There were different reasons given for this, i.e.

>(1) The facilities are nicer there, and She's afraid

>people will go there instead of here. (Ha! I was

>actually told this though!) and (2) She doesn't have

>books on any other living masters. My suspicion was

>that there was a deeper reason, and it feels pretty

>confirmed by what you say. Years ago there was a book

>(Lord of the Air) about Sai Baba which said the same

>thing. I didn't like a lot it said, but I felt the

>author was being totally honest about that. I really

>have no knowledge about these things, only that Mother

>is my All in All, and I am so happy that is true.

>

>--- sprose1 wrote:

> > Hey.

> >

> > Does anybody know if it is true that Ammachi had all

> > the books refering to

> > Sai Baba burned? I am sure everyone is aware that

> > Baba has been charged with

> > pederasty, and has been at it for years. Sorry to

> > say, but we must face

> > facts, right?

> >

>

>Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.

>/

>

>eGroups Sponsor

>Aum Amriteswarayai Namaha!

>

>Ammachi-

>

>______________________

>

______________________________\

_____

Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

December 5, 2000

COVER STORY: SAI BABA

A God Accused

Allegations of sexual molestation continue to dog Sai Baba during the 75th

anniversary celebrations. But will they stick?

By Vijay Jung Thapa with Lavina Melwani in New York and Syed Zubair Ahmed in

London

ALLEGATIONS AND THEIR STATUS

SHADOW PLAY

What happens when faith shatters? For the former devotees of Sathya Sai Baba,

it's as if in an instant they have lost their god forever. It is a

devastating experience that transports them from promised moksha to a private

hell. A disillusionment that has three stages-denial, grief and outrage. In

the end the anger, they say, pervades everything. Today, a small but growing

number of devotees-both foreign and Indian-all settled abroad, are rallying

in anger, alleging that their divine avatar is nothing more than a sexual

abuser of boys and young men.

One of them is Jeff Young, an American who was till recently president of the

Sai Baba Organisation in the south-central region of the US. He alleges that

his son Sam was sexually molested by the godman from 1977 (when Sam was 16)

to the summer of 1999-an allegation that was first carried in The Daily

Telegraph of London. When contacted by INDIA TODAY, Young confirmed the

charges. "The sexual abuse included Baba grabbing Sam's head and forcing him

to give oral sex ... Baba would fondle and suck on Sam's penis and get angry

because he could not get an erection. Sam said he did not like boys that way.

Baba then promised to change himself into a beautiful woman and take Sam

inside of him but it never happened."

For the Youngs, this was a shocking assertion initially because they had

revered Baba as a god for over 20 years. They now cringe at the thought that

they felt "blessed" in the belief that the godman was ministering to their

son's spiritual welfare and allege that all along he was only subjecting Sam

to systematic sexual abuse. In one single visit, they recall, they were given

seven private interviews while Sam was called in 21 times alone.

In recent months, a litany of allegations similar to those of the Youngs has

surfaced, mostly spurred by a document called The Findings that is available

on the Internet. This document, written by a former British devotee, David

Bailey, lists graphic allegations of sexual abuse by a number of former Baba

devotees. It has acted like a catalyst for others to come out with their

stories and spawned more critical websites on Baba. Hari Sampat, a software

engineer in Chicago who served as a voluntary inner-security member in Baba's

ashram from 1992-1995, claims: "I had heard of these paedophilic activities.

I investigated them and found all of them to be true. It was then that I knew

I had to expose it all."

Sampat and others like him from the UK, US, Europe and Australia have

identified victims of sexual molestation by Baba and prompted them to give

their accounts to the media in several countries. These increasing

allegations are today being taken seriously in many western countries,

leading to a rash of defections from Sai Baba groups. In Britain, following

The Daily Telegraph story, Labour MP Tony Colman raised the issue in

Parliament. A former home office minister Tom Sackville also took up the

matter saying, "The authorities have done little so far and that is

regrettable." There is a movement now to urge the British Government to issue

warnings to people wanting to visit Baba's ashram.

In Australia too, The Sunday Age carried an article on Baba's sexual abuse.

In Munich, Germany, Jens Sethi, a former devotee who claims he was molested,

has filed a complaint in the public prosecutor's office. In Sweden, the

central Sai group has closed down and so too has a school based on programmes

devised by educationists at the Baba ashram in Puttaparthi. In the US,

disillusioned devotees are "e-bombing" Foreign Secretary Madeleine Albright's

office every day. When contacted by INDIA TODAY, a State Department official

in Washington said, "Our embassy in Delhi and our consulate in Chennai have

been made aware of these allegations. But this appears to be an issue for the

Indian courts."

The impact of these allegations is difficult to discern within the Sai

community. The majority of the devotees dismiss them. Says Sheela Kumar, an

Indian devotee from the Caribbean who also teaches in a Sai Bal Vikas: "Every

avatar has enemies. Even Christ had enemies. What Baba has done, no one else

has. This creates jealousy." Others higher up in the Sai Baba ashram reason

that these allegations have been going on since decades. Adds a senior member

of the Sai Organisation: "With every criticism, Sai Baba becomes more and

more triumphant."

The coterie that surrounds Baba attacks the molestation charges in two ways.

One, by simply denouncing the whole thing as an "anti-Hindu"

attack-especially since most of those making the charges are foreigners. And

two, by preaching that everything Baba does is a "teaching." Even if he is

doing something that looks immoral or wrong, they claim, he is doing it

because of a purpose and so cannot be questioned.

The devotees are also countering the Internet war on two fronts. First,

everybody is encouraged to shun the Internet. Explains Hal Honig, a senior

Sai official in New York: "Swami tells us not to look at the Internet but at

the inner net." And secondly, by posting sites that support Baba's teachings.

One such site-The Sai Critic-urges devotees to believe only their experiences

with Baba, stating, "When doubt walks in through the front door, faith walks

out of the back door."

But Baba's rebels continue to raise issues even if the mud hasn't stuck, at

least among the devout yet. Most of them claim there is a pattern to Baba's

molestations. Usually, they add, he "chooses his victims" during his daily

darshan by granting them private interviews. Alleges Keith Ord, another

former devotee who now lives in Spain: "In the first interview he rubbed me

against his hips ... in the second, he fondled my genitals and in the last he

was more forceful and kept saying 'do you like to be close to Baba?'"

Baba, the critics allege, also frequently molests young students who study in

the schools and colleges of his ashram. Says one such former student Krishna

Kumar, who now works in Singapore: "Four of my classmates told me how Baba

would occasionally oil their genitals." At first, most devotees believe this

experience has something to do with "awakening the kundalini". Claims Sampat:

"But they usually realise soon that this behaviour has nothing to do with

kundalini and is pure lust." Students like Kumar allege that most people in

the ashram know about these activities and the boys that Baba chooses are

dubbed "in-form boys". These in-form boys, the critics add, get academic

leeway and are not really expected to follow the rules of the ashram.

However, the form only lasts for a month or so and then these boys are

dropped by Baba and subjected to much torment by their peers. For many of

these young boys, the critics point out, the "molestations" are traumatising

because they can't tell their parents who are usually devotees themselves.

They suffer from depression and guilt pangs of having failed their god who

was only "testing" them.

As of now, there are no complaints that have been filed in India. Does that

mean that most of the molestations were taking place with only westerners?

Jed Geyerhahn, an American who alleges he was molested by Baba when he was

16, disagrees: "I just think the western boys are talking about it, the

Indian ones aren't. The western boys have less at stake." Critics point to

the sheer power of Baba in India and how his devotees are in the highest

rungs of the government. It would take a lot of guts to take on Sai Baba Inc,

they add.

Even among the western cases, except for one person, no one has moved court

against Baba yet. Critics says this is because they know they won't have the

power to summon Baba to court-the allegations pertain to Indian jurisdiction.

Besides, even if a case is filed in India, to prove homosexual abuse is

difficult. Criminal law experts say the offence would come under Article 377

of the Indian Penal Code that lists sodomy as an offence. However, if actual

sodomy hasn't taken place, as in all these cases, then proving "an unnatural

act" is very difficult.

But, in the end, most of these disillusioned devotees say they are determined

to fight-to initiate some kind of legal action and keep building pressure

until something snaps. Glen Meloy, who was a Baba devotee for 26 years and

now mobilises victims, is more succinct. "I put Baba in the highest pinnacle.

For me, he was the God of gods," he says. "Now you're talking to someone who

is putting in the same devotion to expose him." But the truth may still prove

elusive.

-with Arthur J. Pais in San Francisco

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December 5, 2000

Dear Ones,

I think it's always ok to ask questions, even and maybe especially about

Gurus. I appreciate the news article that was sent. Who knows? The Dalai Lama

encourages people to take their time while in the process of committing to a

teacher or guru. I chose Amma because I felt Her to be for real. She always

comes through. I do not know about others.

I do have a couple of ideas to share which have been validated in talks

by Amma's Swamis. One is that devotion benefits the devotee whether or not

the guru is enlightened (although it helps.) The other is that a person can

feel him/herself to be enlightened, can have spiritual powers and can appear

to be enlightened to others but if there is any ego left at all it can

sabotage the person completely. The more expanded we become in our spiritual

growth the more subtle and tricky the ego becomes. This dilemma continues

until True enlightenment occurs.

I am not saying that this is true about anyone in particular. All I feel

sure about is that Amma is truly and fully enlightened. For anyone out there

who is in the throes of ego illusion (which includes most of us), subtle or

gross (pun intended) I suggest that we pray. In Amma's Divine

Love, Amalia

December 5, 2000

I agree with Bala that these kinds of messages should not be

discussed here and there are probably tons of e-groups outside where

you can discuss this kind of nonsense endlessly

I cannot understand why people are so offended by masters teaching

love and peace. I am sure you will find similar kinds of allegations

against AMMA - you can refer to her biography for all kinds of

allegations and insults she had to go through

In India when I was growing up I heard that Sai was a fraud/magician

and Osho was a sex-guru. But when I was mature enough to feel the

truth myself, one look at Sai in one of his video-tapes was enough

for me to feel deep within that he was divine and after reading two

lines of an Osho book I could sense he was for real. These feelings

cannot be communicated properly, there are only felt, of course this

awareness came to me only after my heart opened meeting Ammachi. No

matter what allegations or non sense I listen from anybody else will

make me change my feelings because its not based on the head or the

outside world but of the heart.

If some one has any objections to my e-mail please reply to me

directly and not to the list.

Ravi

Ammachi , "Balakrishnan Shankar"

<balakrishnan_sh@h...> wrote:

> Hi

>

> Please let us not post anything against any Living ( or Non Living)

Master

> here. Let this egroup be a forum where people focus on Amma and

Love God and

> see the good in all. This is NOT the place to discuss the pros and

cons of

> other Gurus .

>

> And as an aside, i have to say that many many Sai devotees are Amma

devotees

> too, and Sai Baba has sent people to Amma and VICE VERSA, and She

gave a

> mantra to a friend of mine ( who loves BOTH Sai and Amma and who is

very

> close to Her and constantly is helping people etc) that

was 'applicable to

> both' ( what he was told by a swami).

>

> Also, many Sai devotees were the ones who helped Amma's first tour-

Timothy

> Conway who wrote the beautiful book 'Women of Power and Grace'

mentions this

> and is a Sai devotee.

>

> I personally have been helped by Baba through dreams afew times in

> 'crisis' points- and even though Amma is my Guru and my Pathway , I

remain

> grateful for the advice.

>

> I used to attend Sai centers regularly as much as Amma bhajans, and

not once

> did i come across any teaching that was contradictory to Amma and

some of my

> best friends are Sai devotees who spend their energy and time in so

much

> Seva.

>

> We cannot judge any Mahatma, and we cannot ascertain whether

rumours are

> true.- and if i may add, it is none of our business.

>

> We are here to see the GOOD in all, and please do not mention

anything

> against any Guru here. Many may be offended.

>

> Our business is to Love Amma, Love all and do sadhana.

>

> Forgive me if i sound strong, but yes i cant help it. Wjile i too

have been

> saddened by these rumors , i know for a fact that Amma has sent

some people

> to Sai Baba. That ends the matter for me. She would not send ANYONE

in a

> path She thought was less than Divine.

>

> bala

>

> >Ammachi

> > Digest Number 109

> >5 Dec 2000 14:24:13 -0000

> >

> >Aum Amriteswarayai Namaha!

> >

> >Ammachi-

> >

> >-

-----

> >

> >There are 4 messages in this issue.

> >

> >Topics in this digest:

> >

> > 1. Re: Digest Number 108

> > sprose1@a...

> > 2. Re: Digest Number 108

> > DCarlin111@a...

> > 3. Re: Digest Number 108

> > Ellen Lamb <jyotsna2>

> > 4. Re: Digest Number 108

> > Rick Archer <rickhome@c...>

> >

>

>___________________

___

>

>___________________

___

> >

> >Message: 1

> > Mon, 4 Dec 2000 19:23:08 EST

> > sprose1@a...

> >Re: Digest Number 108

> >

> >Hey.

> >

> >Does anybody know if it is true that Ammachi had all the books

refering to

> >Sai Baba burned? I am sure everyone is aware that Baba has been

charged

> >with

> >pederasty, and has been at it for years. Sorry to say, but we

must face

> >facts, right?

> >

>

>___________________

___

>

>___________________

___

> >

> >Message: 2

> > Mon, 4 Dec 2000 19:50:25 EST

> > DCarlin111@a...

> >Re: Digest Number 108

> >

> >In a message dated 12/4/00 7:24:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> >sprose1@a...

> >writes:

> >

> ><< Hey.

> >

> > Does anybody know if it is true that Ammachi had all the books

refering

> >to

> > Sai Baba burned? I am sure everyone is aware that Baba has been

charged

> >with

> > pederasty, and has been at it for years. Sorry to say, but we

must face

> > facts, right? >>

> >I never heard of such a thing. What is pederasty anyway?!

> >

>

>___________________

___

>

>___________________

___

> >

> >Message: 3

> > Mon, 4 Dec 2000 19:01:44 -0800 (PST)

> > Ellen Lamb <jyotsna2>

> >Re: Digest Number 108

> >

> >Since I worked in the library at Amritapuri, I feel

> >qualified to venture at least a partial answer here.

> >Mother never allowed Sai Baba books in Her library.

> >There were different reasons given for this, i.e.

> >(1) The facilities are nicer there, and She's afraid

> >people will go there instead of here. (Ha! I was

> >actually told this though!) and (2) She doesn't have

> >books on any other living masters. My suspicion was

> >that there was a deeper reason, and it feels pretty

> >confirmed by what you say. Years ago there was a book

> >(Lord of the Air) about Sai Baba which said the same

> >thing. I didn't like a lot it said, but I felt the

> >author was being totally honest about that. I really

> >have no knowledge about these things, only that Mother

> >is my All in All, and I am so happy that is true.

> >

> >--- sprose1@a... wrote:

> > > Hey.

> > >

> > > Does anybody know if it is true that Ammachi had all

> > > the books refering to

> > > Sai Baba burned? I am sure everyone is aware that

> > > Baba has been charged with

> > > pederasty, and has been at it for years. Sorry to

> > > say, but we must face

> > > facts, right?

> > >

> >

> >Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.

> >/

> >

>

>___________________

___

>

>___________________

___

> >

> >Message: 4

> > Mon, 04 Dec 2000 22:40:55 -0600

> > Rick Archer <rickhome@c...>

> >Re: Digest Number 108

> >

> >Pederasty is having sex with boys. But who's to say it's true?

Anyone can

> >accuse another of anything. John Lennon accused Maharishi Mahesh

Yogi of

> >things which I know for a fact were not true.

> >--

> >Rick Archer

> >Archer Graphics & Consulting

> >618 Lindenwood Court

> >Fairfield, IA 52556

> >Phone: 515-472-9336

> >

> >Donate food free every day: http://www.thehungersite.com

> >Save the Rain Forest everyday: http://www.saverainforest.net

> >Help homeless animals for free: http://www.whitly.com

> >

> >Ellen Lamb <jyotsna2>

> >Ammachi

> >Mon, 4 Dec 2000 19:01:44 -0800 (PST)

> >Ammachi

> >Re: Digest Number 108

> >

> >Since I worked in the library at Amritapuri, I feel

> >qualified to venture at least a partial answer here.

> >Mother never allowed Sai Baba books in Her library.

> >There were different reasons given for this, i.e.

> >(1) The facilities are nicer there, and She's afraid

> >people will go there instead of here. (Ha! I was

> >actually told this though!) and (2) She doesn't have

> >books on any other living masters. My suspicion was

> >that there was a deeper reason, and it feels pretty

> >confirmed by what you say. Years ago there was a book

> >(Lord of the Air) about Sai Baba which said the same

> >thing. I didn't like a lot it said, but I felt the

> >author was being totally honest about that. I really

> >have no knowledge about these things, only that Mother

> >is my All in All, and I am so happy that is true.

> >

> >--- sprose1@a... wrote:

> > > Hey.

> > >

> > > Does anybody know if it is true that Ammachi had all

> > > the books refering to

> > > Sai Baba burned? I am sure everyone is aware that

> > > Baba has been charged with

> > > pederasty, and has been at it for years. Sorry to

> > > say, but we must face

> > > facts, right?

> > >

> >

> >Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.

> >/

> >

> >eGroups Sponsor

> >Aum Amriteswarayai Namaha!

> >

> >Ammachi-

> >

>

>___________________

___

>

>___________________

___

> >

>

____________________

_______________

> Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download :

http://explorer.msn.com

December 5, 2000