Guest guest Posted July 2, 2002 Report Share Posted July 2, 2002 << Tue, 2 Jul 2002 01:29:31 EDT pwhite0130 Re: Re: Q & A Jai Girish > Another question was whether/how/should we forgive some one who has commited > a crime/mistake > and is not repentant about this. I just returned from the Dallas session and your question brought to mind a discussion on "forgiveness" we had while savorying the fine Indian food during the convention. The question of forgiving someone else has the underlining implication that you are making a judgement about someone else. i.e. they did something wrong (be it an action toward ourselves or someone else that we consider was harmful). If we take a position of "non-judgement", then how could any action by another be such that we need to forgive? So, the forgiveness we need to extend is to forgive ourselves for making the judgement that anothers action was harmful. How about them apples? Peter>> There are 2 planes of existence and values; the Relative and the Absolute. We move and function within the parameters of Relative reality, and within those parameters of our perceived world, we are subject to physical, emotional and psychological actions and consequences. There IS good and bad behaviour, and good and bad actions (the Lord himself says this in the Gita). That is why we create laws in and among nations to define acceptable and unacceptable actions in every walk of life. However, for the seeker of the Absolute (and only for him/her), the higher aim becomes detachment from Relative reality; not judgment of those actions and behaviours. In order to be detached, we cannot even be attached to the consequences of someone else's behaviour that is hurtful to us. Therefore, "forgiveness" or more properly, "letting go" becomes a tool whereby to shed a burden,...the burden of attachment to the consequences of someone else's wrongful behaviour to us. When we carry around the judgment and consequences of that burden, our mind is not quiet and cannot focus on the Absolute 'I', because it is busy being held back by the grievances of the Relative 'i' or the individual ego. I guess an analogy would be that of a person who is hanging onto a piece of broken wood to stay afloat in the sea, instead of letting go and swimming toward the large ocean liner that is nearby and waiting to rescue him completely from the water. I think the hard thing is to operate within Relative reality while doing what one must to seek the Absolute. That is why we can ask, "how do we forgive someone who has done wrong"? "who" has done "what" and to "whom"? If we can know the answer to that, then forgiveness becomes a non-issue. Namah Shivaya, Usha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2002 Report Share Posted July 6, 2002 Some actions are harmful. If people don't identify them as such, then there's no hope for stopping them. We just lost to death from breast cancer an amazing professor, Ani Mander. Some years back, she flew to Bosnia and interviewed many women who had been raped during ethnic cleansing there. (She comes from that part of the world originally.) Through her advocacy for these women, rape during war is now considered a war crime and a crime against humanity. Last week in the paper there was a related story involving a young woman who was punished in this way to shame her family. Her preteen brother had been seen walking, unchaperoned, with an unrelated female from a different tribe. That tribe demanded the right to shame the family. The incident happened in India and involved people in remote areas. I couldn't help thinking that, if it had not been for Ani Mander's stand for the women of Bosnia, an incident between tribals in India never would be noticed, let alone given publicity in the U.S. Sometimes one should be judgmental. Sometimes it's okay to acknowlege that certain actions are harmful. Mother does it regularly, often with humour. "Tele-visham" for television comes immediately to mind. ("Visham" means poison.) Aikya Ammachi, DJUM@a... wrote: > << Tue, 2 Jul 2002 01:29:31 EDT > pwhite0130@a... > Re: Re: Q & A > > Jai Girish > > > Another question was whether/how/should we forgive some one who has > commited > > a crime/mistake > > and is not repentant about this. > > I just returned from the Dallas session and your question brought to mind a > discussion on "forgiveness" we had while savorying the fine Indian food > during the convention. > > The question of forgiving someone else has the underlining implication that > you are making a judgement about someone else. i.e. they did something wrong > (be it an action toward ourselves or someone else that we consider was > harmful). If we take a position of "non-judgement", then how could any > action > by another be such that we need to forgive? > > So, the forgiveness we need to extend is to forgive ourselves for making the > judgement that anothers action was harmful. > > How about them apples? > > Peter>> > > There are 2 planes of existence and values; the Relative and the Absolute. > > We move and function within the parameters of Relative reality, and within > those parameters of our perceived world, we are subject to physical, > emotional and psychological actions and consequences. There IS good and bad > behaviour, and good and bad actions (the Lord himself says this in the Gita). > That is why we create laws in and among nations to define acceptable and > unacceptable actions in every walk of life. However, for the seeker of the > Absolute (and only for him/her), the higher aim becomes detachment from > Relative reality; not judgment of those actions and behaviours. In order to > be detached, we cannot even be attached to the consequences of someone else's > behaviour that is hurtful to us. Therefore, "forgiveness" or more properly, > "letting go" becomes a tool whereby to shed a burden,...the burden of > attachment to the consequences of someone else's wrongful behaviour to us. > When we carry around the judgment and consequences of that burden, our mind > is not quiet and cannot focus on the Absolute 'I', because it is busy being > held back by the grievances of the Relative 'i' or the individual ego. > > I guess an analogy would be that of a person who is hanging onto a piece of > broken wood to stay afloat in the sea, instead of letting go and swimming > toward the large ocean liner that is nearby and waiting to rescue him > completely from the water. > > I think the hard thing is to operate within Relative reality while doing what > one must to seek the Absolute. That is why we can ask, "how do we forgive > someone who has done wrong"? "who" has done "what" and to "whom"? If we can > know the answer to that, then forgiveness becomes a non-issue. > > Namah Shivaya, > Usha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 11, 2002 Report Share Posted July 11, 2002 Aikya, A minor correction: On Sun, 7 Jul 2002, aikya wrote: > areas. I couldn't help thinking that, if it had not been for Ani > Mander's stand for the women of Bosnia, an incident between tribals > in India never would be noticed, let alone given publicity in the U.S. I believe this was in Pakistan, not India. Girish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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