Rules for Rituals

[Guest guest]

I agree with this viewpoint; all the legalism over rules of worship seems

totally beside the point to me. Jesus was quite turned off by the legalism

in religion at his time, so he deliberately broke the rules in such a way as

to undermine them. I think Amma is similar in her approach-- LOVE LOVE LOVE

and don't get hung up on all the legalism. =-== om--= Nick

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

The rules for rituals have resulted in major human suffering at least

over the last several centuries. In order for some people to be able

to remain ritually pure, other people were given the unclean jobs and

then discriminated against. Amma doesn't EVER say anything about

what direction to face when you sleep or where, if anywhere, to place

your altar, etc. In fact the stone that is the centerpiece for her

brahmasthanam temples doesn't face anywhere in particular, does it?

 

If you really want to get technical, none of us white Americans

should be doing puja. We can't enter many of the Hindu temples in

India. We weren't born Hindus. Per the conservatives, we are outside

the caste system. That means we are all technically untouchable and

not only are we not qualified to perform Hindu rituals but also

weshould not touch anyone authorized to perform them, no matter what

direction we're facing. We are mlecchas, people who don't speak

Sanskrit and have little culture. (The latter some people might agree

with.) This stance on the part of conservative ritualistic Hindus is

the outcome of concern about rules for rituals. What direction to

face. How to hold the conch, etc.

 

This is yet another beautiful thing about Amma (in case you needed

another item). She knows the suffering these rules have caused.

She'd like us to purify our minds so that we can get to Self-

knowledge. She wants us to do our one hour a day or one day a week

service for the good of all, etc. Remarkably simple actions, some

designed to clean our minds, some designed to alleviate suffering:

that's what Amma enjoins. It doesn't seem like any of the things

Amma encourages -- saying Lalita Sahasranama everyday, getting and

saying a mantra, singign bhajans -- none of them are exclusive to one

group. None of them can cause suffering to anyone. Be grateful for

her extraordinary insight. Be grateful that you are okay with her,

good enough for a hug, good enough for a mantra if you want one, good

enough to be in her family, no matter what direction you're facing.

 

Aikya

[Guest guest]

> Amma doesn't EVER say

> anything about

> what direction to face when you sleep or where, if

> anywhere, to place

> your altar, etc. In fact the stone that is the

> centerpiece for her

> brahmasthanam temples doesn't face anywhere in

> particular, does it?

 

Doesn't the murti in those temples have four faces

(like Brahma) so it faces in all directions?

>

> If you really want to get technical, none of us

> white Americans

> should be doing puja. We can't enter many of the

> Hindu temples in

> India.

 

I didn't have problems entering temples in

Rishikesh/Haridwar (which was swarming with Europeans

and Aussies), or Mathura/Vrindavan (where they're used

to Western Hare Krishna devotees). But the Vishwanath

Temple in Varanasi was guarded by some of the toughest

soldiers in the Indian army, whose job it was to keep

out anyone who didn't look sufficiently Brahmin.

 

>We weren't born Hindus.

 

No, but I would have identified myself as "Hindu" on

the 2001 Census of Canada, had it asked about

religion.

 

Per the

> conservatives, we are outside

> the caste system. That means we are all technically

> untouchable and

> not only are we not qualified to perform Hindu

> rituals but also

> weshould not touch anyone authorized to perform

> them, no matter what

> direction we're facing. We are mlecchas, people

> who don't speak

> Sanskrit and have little culture. (The latter some

> people might agree

> with.)

 

So would the late Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami

(publisher of Hinduism Today) be considered an

untouchable, barred from temples in India, and not be

allowed to perform pujas? He was a white guy, born in

the U.S., and not becoming a Hindu until in his 20s.

Until he passed away late last year, for some half a

century he devoted himself to affirming the path of

Sanatan Dharma in the west and bringing together both

Indian-born and Western Hindu devotees.

 

I've been studying Sanskrit for some 10 years. Am I

still a mleccha? IMHO, some of the Western

"converts" to Hinduism know more Sanskrit and have

studied the scriptures more diligently than those born

in India.

 

Perhaps we North Americans have little culture.

Nonetheless, Indians are glomming on to U.S. pop

culture, if the proliferation of McDonalds, KFC, Pizza

Hut, etc. across Bharat Mata is any indication. Tiger

Woods and Brittney Spears haven't yet replaced Sachin

Tendulkar (captain of India's cricket team) and the

many Bollywood stars as pop culture icons, but the gap

is closing.

 

> It doesn't seem like any

> of the things

> Amma encourages -- saying Lalita Sahasranama

> everyday, getting and

> saying a mantra, singign bhajans -- none of them are

> exclusive to one

> group. None of them can cause suffering to anyone.

> Be grateful for

> her extraordinary insight. Be grateful that you are

> okay with her,

> good enough for a hug, good enough for a mantra if

> you want one, good

> enough to be in her family, no matter what direction

> you're facing.

>

 

YES!!! I couldn't have said it better!

 

and as Krishna says in the Gita (chapter 9, sloka 26):

 

Any offering of a leaf, flower, fruit or water, made

to Me in devotion, by an earnest soul, I lovingly

accept.

 

 

Keval

 

 

 

Health - Feel better, live better

http://health.

[Guest guest]

> Doesn't the murti in those temples have four faces

> (like Brahma) so it faces in all directions?

> >

 

The image that I have seen of the stone that is installed in Amma's

Brahmasthanam temples shows a flat stone with figures in bas-relief.

I've never been to one of the temples adn only seen photographs. I

never see this stsone standing up so I had thought that it was

installed in the floor.

 

I don't know what the tradition is regarding Brahma but it seemed

like the four (originally five) heads suggest space or all-

directions, directions only being possible where there is space, the

first element.

 

> So would the late Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami

> (publisher of Hinduism Today) be considered an

> untouchable, barred from temples in India, and not be

> allowed to perform pujas? He was a white guy, born in

> the U.S., and not becoming a Hindu until in his 20s.

> Until he passed away late last year, for some half a

> century he devoted himself to affirming the path of

> Sanatan Dharma in the west and bringing together both

> Indian-born and Western Hindu devotees.

 

Yes. He quickly became known as someone who was bringing people back

to Hinduism. I remember the time in the eighties when Americans in

his group first talked excitedly about no longer having trouble

entering temples when they traveled with Guruji. At that point I

think he had been a leader for nearly 20 years.

 

> I've been studying Sanskrit for some 10 years. Am I

> still a mleccha? IMHO, some of the Western

> "converts" to Hinduism know more Sanskrit and have

> studied the scriptures more diligently than those born

> in India.

 

I see your point of view and it may be somewhat true. Surely Dr.

David Frawley is well respected in India. Opinions like the ones I

described don't spring from truth. Neither did caste injustice

result from truth.

 

We are very fortunate to have Amma. To me she is not only a nice

holy woman who gives hugs but is a true leader presenting a new

approach that can remove past ignorance and prevent future injury of

the individual and society. I say that as someone who has also

studied. I immersed myself in Hinduism before studying Vedanta with

Swami Dayananda because I thought I needed to know it in order to

understand him. The blessing of the exploration for me was the many

wonderful people I met who have been models for me.

 

For those who love complexity and study, there is a vast ocean of

scholarship on the upanishads and related texts that unfold the

vision of the Self. There are the itihasas. Amma refers often to

Ramayana.

 

Maybe it all comes down to a scale between fear (lack of faith) to

love (presence of faith). I'm not sure I saw faith, shraddha, as the

fulcrum between love and fear before. It's true that we don't love

unless there is faith, trust, confidence somehow. There's a

difference between doing something as beautifully as one possibly can

and operating from anxiety.

 

It reminds me of garland making. One carefully makes a beautiful

garland following all the rules and then someone who doesn't know any

better comes by and smells it. Uh-oh. So then, where is the deity

for whom the scent of the garland is supposed to be reserved? Is God

only in the statue or the picture? Does one discard the garland

because that one long appreciative sniff has rendered it "used" and

not appropriate to offer?

 

Aikya

 

 

 

>

> Perhaps we North Americans have little culture.

> Nonetheless, Indians are glomming on to U.S. pop

> culture, if the proliferation of McDonalds, KFC, Pizza

> Hut, etc. across Bharat Mata is any indication. Tiger

> Woods and Brittney Spears haven't yet replaced Sachin

> Tendulkar (captain of India's cricket team) and the

> many Bollywood stars as pop culture icons, but the gap

> is closing.

>

> > It doesn't seem like any

> > of the things

> > Amma encourages -- saying Lalita Sahasranama

> > everyday, getting and

> > saying a mantra, singign bhajans -- none of them are

> > exclusive to one

> > group. None of them can cause suffering to anyone.

> > Be grateful for

> > her extraordinary insight. Be grateful that you are

> > okay with her,

> > good enough for a hug, good enough for a mantra if

> > you want one, good

> > enough to be in her family, no matter what direction

> > you're facing.

> >

>

> YES!!! I couldn't have said it better!

>

> and as Krishna says in the Gita (chapter 9, sloka 26):

>

> Any offering of a leaf, flower, fruit or water, made

> to Me in devotion, by an earnest soul, I lovingly

> accept.

>

>

> Keval

>

>

>

> Health - Feel better, live better

> http://health.

[Guest guest]

Ammachi, "aikya" <aikya> wrote:

> The rules for rituals have resulted in major human suffering at

least over the last several centuries.

 

Not the rules, but those who blindly enforce them, just like Amma's

tour staff in the old days of "Amma said the line should move over

here, so everyone move!" (I can't really convey the snottiness

through typing)

 

1. Rules are the "ideal" in pleasing the particular deity and to get

the best results in worship, versus general devotion to Guru.

Although attention to detail is one sign of devotion.

 

2. The rules are for us to be mindful and pay attention to what

we're doing. Although your heart and mind has alot to do with it,

following certain procedures make a big difference in "worship",

verus just being a spiritual person (not all spiritual people belief

in actually "worshipping" something).

 

3. I'm sure Amma follows certain rules when installing murthis in

Her temples, and expects her pujaris to follow certain rules.

 

4. If I'm going to have a homa or puja performed by someone on my

behalf, I'd prefer they follow the prescribed rules of worship.

 

5. In this Kali Yuga, where our attention span is shorter and it's

harder to concentrate, obviously it's not possible to follow all the

specifics as in the old days.

 

6. Contrary to rebels who don't believe in any right way of doing

things, doing things the right way increases your chances of getting

the right results.

 

7. Hinduism and the Indian people are very diverse. For example,

many Vaishnavas I find to be traditionalists, while many Shaktas are

more open. Just like Mormons or Catholics might be a little more

closed off than Protestant churches, each have their dharma.

 

tom

[Guest guest]

Yes Tom and Aikya,

 

Yes- if there is Bhakti then God accepts the

worship even if there is a mistake in following the

rules. However, it is better to follow the rules of

certain rituals carefully , and then after having done

what we can, we can ask rely on the fact that The Lord

accepts the Love in our hearts more than anything

else.

 

However, we need to discriminate as to what rules may

be applicable and what may not .Some rules are given

to the disciple during initiation. For example , for

Sri CHakra puja there are a lot of elaborate rules to

be followed.

 

If you see the way Amma installs the Murti in the

Brahmastjanam emples you will finfd that Amma follows

a specific method . Also the Swami who does the

preparatory pujas does a lot of elaborate rituals etc.

 

However,speaking from what i have read, in general,

if we are worshipping out of Love for our spiritual

development and not for a specific material gain ,

then many of the rules are given secondary importance-

it is the attitude of the worshipper that is most

important.

 

BUT if one is doing a puja/homa for a specific

material objective- for example the 'putra kameshti

yaga' for begetting children- then there are very very

very specific rules to follow -`

 

The greatness of AMMA lies in Her infinite Mercy

..Even though we may make a million mistakes in doing

the practices Amma recommends, She will take care

..Amma overrides everything... merely being in Her

prescence purifies us and gives us the effect of

having done many rituals correctly- after all, all

these rituals are for mental purification and to

become unselfish- what better way to do that than just

Looking at Her who is the very definition of Purity

and selflessness.

 

Amma is so purifying .... i read an article in the

Fairfield satsang magazine they were selling- in that

article a man was saying about how he did not realise

the full greatness of Amma's darshan. He thought 'Oh

its just a nice hug thats all'. A few years later,a

vedic astrologer told him his son was going to have a

very serious automobile accident.

 

He was very worried about it- but later on when he

checked with AMMA about the astrologer's prediction ,

Amma replied:

 

'OH DONT WORRY, I REMOVED THE KARMA FROM YOUR SON

THE VERY FIRST TIME YOU ALL CAME FOR DARSHAN'!!!!

 

The man was moved deeply to understand that Amma's

darshan works at a much deeper level than just the

physical hug.

 

BUT the story does not end here-

 

at around the time the astrologer had predicted his

son's accident -

 

His son was travelling in a car with his friend and

3 others- when the car went out of control- swept

across 3 lanes of oncoming traffic - and landed safely

in the kerb -with NO ONE HURT !

 

They were all quite shocked , and shaken up of

course. But what could have been a deadly fatal

incident was miraculously averted.

 

Thus the karma was there but there was Amma's hand

protecting them.

 

anyway, i have rambled on- but my point is that

Amma's prescence itself is purifying and simply

Loving Her in our hearts gives us the protecting

effects of a million rituals done properly.

 

bala

 

 

 

 

--- aikya <aikya wrote:

>

> > Doesn't the murti in those temples have four faces

> > (like Brahma) so it faces in all directions?

> > >

>

> The image that I have seen of the stone that is

> installed in Amma's

> Brahmasthanam temples shows a flat stone with

> figures in bas-relief.

> I've never been to one of the temples adn only seen

> photographs. I

> never see this stsone standing up so I had thought

> that it was

> installed in the floor.

>

> I don't know what the tradition is regarding Brahma

> but it seemed

> like the four (originally five) heads suggest space

> or all-

> directions, directions only being possible where

> there is space, the

> first element.

>

> > So would the late Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami

> > (publisher of Hinduism Today) be considered an

> > untouchable, barred from temples in India, and not

> be

> > allowed to perform pujas? He was a white guy,

> born in

> > the U.S., and not becoming a Hindu until in his

> 20s.

> > Until he passed away late last year, for some half

> a

> > century he devoted himself to affirming the path

> of

> > Sanatan Dharma in the west and bringing together

> both

> > Indian-born and Western Hindu devotees.

>

> Yes. He quickly became known as someone who was

> bringing people back

> to Hinduism. I remember the time in the eighties

> when Americans in

> his group first talked excitedly about no longer

> having trouble

> entering temples when they traveled with Guruji. At

> that point I

> think he had been a leader for nearly 20 years.

>

> > I've been studying Sanskrit for some 10 years. Am

> I

> > still a mleccha? IMHO, some of the Western

> > "converts" to Hinduism know more Sanskrit and have

> > studied the scriptures more diligently than those

> born

> > in India.

>

> I see your point of view and it may be somewhat

> true. Surely Dr.

> David Frawley is well respected in India. Opinions

> like the ones I

> described don't spring from truth. Neither did

> caste injustice

> result from truth.

>

> We are very fortunate to have Amma. To me she is

> not only a nice

> holy woman who gives hugs but is a true leader

> presenting a new

> approach that can remove past ignorance and prevent

> future injury of

> the individual and society. I say that as someone

> who has also

> studied. I immersed myself in Hinduism before

> studying Vedanta with

> Swami Dayananda because I thought I needed to know

> it in order to

> understand him. The blessing of the exploration for

> me was the many

> wonderful people I met who have been models for me.

>

> For those who love complexity and study, there is a

> vast ocean of

> scholarship on the upanishads and related texts that

> unfold the

> vision of the Self. There are the itihasas. Amma

> refers often to

> Ramayana.

>

> Maybe it all comes down to a scale between fear

> (lack of faith) to

> love (presence of faith). I'm not sure I saw faith,

> shraddha, as the

> fulcrum between love and fear before. It's true

> that we don't love

> unless there is faith, trust, confidence somehow.

> There's a

> difference between doing something as beautifully as

> one possibly can

> and operating from anxiety.

>

> It reminds me of garland making. One carefully

> makes a beautiful

> garland following all the rules and then someone who

> doesn't know any

> better comes by and smells it. Uh-oh. So then,

> where is the deity

> for whom the scent of the garland is supposed to be

> reserved? Is God

> only in the statue or the picture? Does one discard

> the garland

> because that one long appreciative sniff has

> rendered it "used" and

> not appropriate to offer?

>

> Aikya

>

>

>

> >

> > Perhaps we North Americans have little culture.

> > Nonetheless, Indians are glomming on to U.S. pop

> > culture, if the proliferation of McDonalds, KFC,

> Pizza

> > Hut, etc. across Bharat Mata is any indication.

> Tiger

> > Woods and Brittney Spears haven't yet replaced

> Sachin

> > Tendulkar (captain of India's cricket team) and

> the

> > many Bollywood stars as pop culture icons, but the

> gap

> > is closing.

> >

> > > It doesn't seem like any

> > > of the things

> > > Amma encourages -- saying Lalita Sahasranama

> > > everyday, getting and

> > > saying a mantra, singign bhajans -- none of them

> are

> > > exclusive to one

> > > group. None of them can cause suffering to

> anyone.

> > > Be grateful for

> > > her extraordinary insight. Be grateful that you

> are

> > > okay with her,

> > > good enough for a hug, good enough for a mantra

> if

> > > you want one, good

> > > enough to be in her family, no matter what

> direction

> > > you're facing.

> > >

> >

> > YES!!! I couldn't have said it better!

> >

> > and as Krishna says in the Gita (chapter 9, sloka

> 26):

> >

> > Any offering of a leaf, flower, fruit or water,

> made

> > to Me in devotion, by an earnest soul, I lovingly

> > accept.

> >

> >

> > Keval

> >

> >

> >

> > Health - Feel better, live better

> > http://health.

>

>

 

 

 

 

Health - Feel better, live better

http://health.