Guest guest Posted August 24, 2002 Report Share Posted August 24, 2002 In a message dated 8/24/02 7:57:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Ammachi writes: > Does the image of Kali with her red > thong sticking out, a decapitated head in one > hand with a sword with blood on the another > rings a bell to you I Love it. I love it! "her red THONG sticking out." I heard she's trying out this for American Idol next week! Avram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2002 Report Share Posted August 24, 2002 As if I have not started or inflamed things enough, in the interests of honesty I am going to have to share another worm in the apple of Ammahood. I was in Amritapuri in '99 and I was told that two men fell from the roof of the area which was at that time used for meals. I heard that at least one died, or perhaps both. I heard that one was cruelly impaled on metal. Not a Amma-like scene. They were most likely working without protection, such as ropes or whatever you are supposed to use. First problem. They were devotees. How is it that Amma did not know that something afoul was in the midst? Do you think she knew, and chose to do nothing about it? do you really, really think that? Not even telling them to use safety equipment that professionals would not work without? I can't picture her knowing that a cruel death awaited two devotees, at the ashram, and still she did not say anything to stop it. She could have if she knew. Did it need to happen? And what does that say for being lucky enough to be a devotee in her ashram, that the Guru doesn't even spare your life? Spare me the inevitable mystical talk about how much they may have learned on the way down from the roof to their death: this would be a bit facile. The main issue comes down to omniscience and the distinction between God and Guru: not an easy issue. If omniscience is "knowing what needs to be known when it needs to be known" then you have to explain why the deaths of these men did not come up on the radar screen: not an easy issue. You then get into big and little Amma, with the big one knowing, but the little one not always knowing: but can adults believe this? It is also true that we with finite mind are trying to understand the infinite: not an easy issue. This may be the best defense, like every other religion says when tragedy strikes, to wit, we cannot understand God. But, can we really not ask these questions?? We amy not know the answers, but can we really not ask the questions? If she didn't pick up on this, in her own ashram, how do we know she will be there for us when we need her: are we so important and so different than those two? I realize this topic is not for everyone. One of the reasons I think it is appropriate to ask it is that Westerners are generally too believing, too credulous. It is a doubt of mine and I think I am being open in asking it. There are different levels, so to speak, in our relation to Amma, which can somehow co-exist, unresolved. We might as well be honest about our doubts. Avram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2002 Report Share Posted August 24, 2002 Ammachi, sprose1@a... wrote: > As if I have not started or inflamed things enough, in the interests of > honesty I am going to have to share another worm in the apple of Ammahood. I > was in Amritapuri in '99 and I was told that two men fell from the roof of > the area which was at that time used for meals. I heard that at least one > died, or perhaps both. I heard that one was cruelly impaled on metal. Not a > Amma-like scene. > > They were most likely working without protection, such as ropes or whatever > you are supposed to use. First problem. > > They were devotees. How is it that Amma did not know that something afoul > was in the midst? Do you think she knew, and chose to do nothing about it? > do you really, really think that? Not even telling them to use safety > equipment that professionals would not work without? I can't picture her > knowing that a cruel death awaited two devotees, at the ashram, and still she > did not say anything to stop it. She could have if she knew. Did it need to > happen? And what does that say for being lucky enough to be a devotee in her > ashram, that the Guru doesn't even spare your life? Spare me the inevitable > mystical talk about how much they may have learned on the way down from the > roof to their death: this would be a bit facile. The main issue comes down > to omniscience and the distinction between God and Guru: not an easy issue. > If omniscience is "knowing what needs to be known when it needs to be known" > then you have to explain why the deaths of these men did not come up on the > radar screen: not an easy issue. You then get into big and little Amma, > with the big one knowing, but the little one not always knowing: but can > adults believe this? It is also true that we with finite mind are trying to > understand the infinite: not an easy issue. This may be the best defense, > like every other religion says when tragedy strikes, to wit, we cannot > understand God. But, can we really not ask these questions?? We amy not > know the answers, but can we really not ask the questions? If she didn't > pick up on this, in her own ashram, how do we know she will be there for us > when we need her: are we so important and so different than those two? > > I realize this topic is not for everyone. One of the reasons I think it is > appropriate to ask it is that Westerners are generally too believing, too > credulous. It is a doubt of mine and I think I am being open in asking it. > There are different levels, so to speak, in our relation to Amma, which can > somehow co-exist, unresolved. We might as well be honest about our doubts. > Avram Are you certain Amma was in the ashram at the time since she's away more than 50% of the time? L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2002 Report Share Posted August 24, 2002 While I would not like to get into a full discussion on this issue, I would like to observe a few things, that are generally agreed upon by the scriptures also called as "sruti" in hindu terms. 1) the law of karma is too subtle to understand, and any such event that happens is due to the result of past actions. If a mahatma feels that what is going to happen is best for the "soul's evolution" - evolution here, from a spritual perspective and not from the perspective of the seer, he may or may not change the course of karmic destiny. Thus what seems to be the right course of action that is to be done (or that should have been done) might not necessarily be an enlightened action. 2) in reality all seva done to a master or god advances the spiritual evolution by a huge extent say by a couple of births or permanently - much faster than any amount of individual spiritual practices that one does. In the current context, those who have read On the road to freedom vol 1, might recall, mother's words to swami paramatmandanda: "son, if mother removes your pain now, you might have to take another birth and suffer same or even more. Whereas if you experience this in this birth itself and exhaust the karma, you may not have to take another birth" ----- this is just to show that the what seems to be a "correct action" to the normal eye might not in reality be an "enlightened" action. And finally, I urge all in the list to use moderation when it comes to using expressions like "con-artist" (from a different mail, but related to this thread) or "wormhood" . I apologize if these words have an impolite or even worse, a rude tenor. The views expressed here are my own- and have nothing to do with the personae I have tried to interpret. Thanks all! sprose1 [sprose1] Saturday, August 24, 2002 1:28 PM Ammachi Re: Digest Number 576 As if I have not started or inflamed things enough, in the interests of honesty I am going to have to share another worm in the apple of Ammahood. I was in Amritapuri in '99 and I was told that two men fell from the roof of the area which was at that time used for meals. I heard that at least one died, or perhaps both. I heard that one was cruelly impaled on metal. Not a Amma-like scene. They were most likely working without protection, such as ropes or whatever you are supposed to use. First problem. They were devotees. How is it that Amma did not know that something afoul was in the midst? Do you think she knew, and chose to do nothing about it? do you really, really think that? Not even telling them to use safety equipment that professionals would not work without? I can't picture her knowing that a cruel death awaited two devotees, at the ashram, and still she did not say anything to stop it. She could have if she knew. Did it need to happen? And what does that say for being lucky enough to be a devotee in her ashram, that the Guru doesn't even spare your life? Spare me the inevitable mystical talk about how much they may have learned on the way down from the roof to their death: this would be a bit facile. The main issue comes down to omniscience and the distinction between God and Guru: not an easy issue. If omniscience is "knowing what needs to be known when it needs to be known" then you have to explain why the deaths of these men did not come up on the radar screen: not an easy issue. You then get into big and little Amma, with the big one knowing, but the little one not always knowing: but can adults believe this? It is also true that we with finite mind are trying to understand the infinite: not an easy issue. This may be the best defense, like every other religion says when tragedy strikes, to wit, we cannot understand God. But, can we really not ask these questions?? We amy not know the answers, but can we really not ask the questions? If she didn't pick up on this, in her own ashram, how do we know she will be there for us when we need her: are we so important and so different than those two? I realize this topic is not for everyone. One of the reasons I think it is appropriate to ask it is that Westerners are generally too believing, too credulous. It is a doubt of mine and I think I am being open in asking it. There are different levels, so to speak, in our relation to Amma, which can somehow co-exist, unresolved. We might as well be honest about our doubts. Avram <http://rd./M=231282.2213020.3686934.2152211/D=egroupweb/S=1705 075991:HM/A=1190491/R=0/*http:/clickserve.cc-dt.com/link/click?lid=41000 000000411527> Aum Amriteswarayai Namaha! Ammachi <> Terms of Service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2002 Report Share Posted August 24, 2002 The heavens declare God's grandeur and the radiance from which they arise. Each dawn tells of this beauty; each night shines with this grace. Their testimony speaks to the whole world and reaches to the ends of the earth. In them is a path for the sun, who steps forth handsome as a bridegroom and rejoices like an athlete as he runs. He starts at one end of the heavens and circles to the other end, and nothing can hide from his heat. God's universe is perfect, awing the mind. God's truth is subtle, baffling the intellect. God's law is complete, quickening the breath. God's compassion is fathomless, refreshing the soul. God's justice is absolute, lighting up, the eyes. God's love is radiant, rejoicing the heart, more precious than the finest gold, sweeter than honey from the comb. Help me to be aware of my selfishness, but without undue shame or self judgment. Let me always feel you present, in every atom of my life. Let me keep surrendering my self until I am utterly transparent. Let my words be rooted in honesty and my thoughts be lost in your light, Unnamable God, my essence, my origin, my life-blood, my home. ~Psalm 19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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