FW: Perspectives....

[Guest guest]

Namah Shivaya.

 

Whether or not this is an urban myth, it is worth reading.

 

 

 

At a fund-raising dinner for a school that serves learning-disabled

children, the father of one of the school's students delivered a speech that

would never be forgotten by all who attended.

 

After extolling the school and its dedicated staff, he offered a question.

 

"Everything God does is done with perfection. Yet, my son, Shay, cannot

learn things as other children do. He cannot understand things

 

as other children do. Where is God's plan reflected in my son?"

 

The audience was stilled by the query. The father continued. "I believe,"

the father answered, "that when God brings a child like Shay into the world,

an opportunity to realize the Divine Plan presents itself. And it comes in

the way people treat that child."

 

Then, he told the following story: Shay and his father had walked past a

park where some boys Shay knew were playing baseball. Shay asked, "Do you

think they will let me play?" Shay's father knew that most boys would not

want him on their team. But the father understood

 

that if his son were allowed to play it would give him a much-needed sense

of belonging.

 

Shay's father approached one of the boys on the field and asked if Shay

could play. The boy looked around for guidance from his teammates. Getting

none, he took matters into his own hands and said, "We are losing by six

runs, and the game is in the eighth inning. I guess he can be on our team

and we'll try to put him up to bat in the ninth inning." In the bottom of

the eighth inning, Shay's team scored a few runs but was still behind by

three.

 

At the top of the ninth inning, Shay put on a glove and played in the

 

outfield. Although no hits came his way, he was obviously ecstatic just to

be on the field, grinning from ear to ear as his father waved to him from

the stands.

 

In the bottom of the ninth inning, Shay's team scored again. Now, with two

outs and bases loaded, the potential winning run was on base. Shay was

scheduled to be the next at-bat. Would the team actually let Shay

 

bat at this juncture and give away their chance to win the game?

 

Surprisingly, Shay was given the bat. Everyone knew that a hit was all but

impossible because Shay didn't even know how to hold the bat properly, much

less connect with the ball. However, as Shay stepped up to the plate,

 

the pitcher moved a few steps to lob the ball in softly so Shay could

 

at least be able to make contact. The first pitch came and Shay swung

clumsily

 

and missed.

 

The pitcher again took a few steps forward to toss the ball softly toward

Shay. As the pitch came in, Shay swung at the ball and hit a slow ground

ball to the pitcher. The pitcher picked up the soft grounder and could

easily have thrown the ball to the first baseman. Shay would have been out

and that would have ended the game.

 

Instead, the pitcher took the ball and threw it on a high arc to right

field, far beyond reach of the first baseman. Everyone started yelling,

"Shay, run to first. Run to first." Never in his life had Shay ever made it

to first base. He scampered down the baseline, wide-eyed and startled.

Everyone yelled "Run to second, run to second!"

 

By the time Shay was rounding first base, the right fielder had the ball. He

could have thrown the ball to the second baseman for a tag. But the right

fielder understood what the pitcher's intentions had been, so he threw the

ball high and far over the third baseman's head. Shay ran towards second

base as the runners ahead of him deliriously circled the bases towards home.

 

As Shay reached second base, the opposing shortstop ran to him, turned him

in the direction of third base, and shouted, "Run to third!" As Shay rounded

third, the boys from both teams were screaming, "Shay! Run home!" Shay ran

home, stepped on home plate and was cheered as the hero, for hitting a

"grand slam" and winning the game for his team.

 

"That day," said the father softly with tears now rolling down his face,

"the boys from both teams helped bring a piece of the Divine Plan into this

world."

 

 

We all have thousands of opportunities a day to help realize your God's

plan. So many seemingly trivial interactions between two people

present us with a choice: Do we pass along a spark of the Divine? Or do we

pass up that opportunity, and leave the world a bit colder in the process?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Jai Kenna:

 

 

> Yet, my son, Shay, cannot

> learn things as other children do. He cannot understand things

>

> as other children do. Where is God's plan reflected in my son?"

>

> The audience was stilled by the query. The father continued. "I believe,"

> the father answered, "that when God brings a child like Shay into the

> world,

> an opportunity to realize the Divine Plan presents itself. And it comes in

> the way people treat that child."

>

 

This sounds like the typical "Why does God do this to me?" type question.

 

It always amazes me that people who ask such questions ignore the Soul (or

Spirit or Higher Self or Who You Really Are ... take your pick).

 

It is the Soul that decides to take on a birth. As some put it, it is the

child that chooses the parents not the parents who chose the child.

 

The Soul takes on a life in order to acquire the experiences It needs for the

Spiritual Growth It desires. If taking on a life in a defective body serves

that purpose best, the Soul will do so. It takes great courage to take on a

life that has great challenges. Yet, this is the fast track, is it not?

 

Does God have a Divine Plan for each of us? I don't think so. The Soul sure

does! And it has nothing to do with money, position, power or anything else

material or physical.

 

Peter

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

> > Yet, my son, Shay, cannot

> > learn things as other children do. He cannot understand things

> >

> > as other children do. Where is God's plan reflected in my son?"

> >

>

>This sounds like the typical "Why does God do this to me?" type question.

>

>It always amazes me that people who ask such questions ignore the Soul (or

>Spirit or Higher Self or Who You Really Are ... take your pick).

>

>Peter

>

 

Peter,

 

I too ask such questions. The reason is simple. I am talking

from my own experience of sorrow, not from some pie-in-the-sky

statements from scriptures.

 

As long as the soul is intangible, but my experiences are

tangible, I will rely on experiences rather than theories

of souls or higher selves. What is sad is when someone

is neither here nor there -- they cannot fully experience

this world because of the stuff they have heard about higher

selves, but they are still bound to the world, and hence

cannot experience the so-called bliss of the higher self

continuously.

 

Vallath Nandakumar

vallathn

 

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[Guest guest]

Peter, not to pick on you, but your description sounds awfully "new-

agey", and doesn't agree with what Amma teaches (Sanathana Dharma).

How can you expect people to recognize or follow their soul, spirit,

God, when they can't even do what's right in daily life? There are

some "humans" who are obviously new to human birth, where they

simply don't have the intelligence or intuition to do much more than

an animal lifestyle: eat, sleep, earn a living, have a little

recreation, then repeat.

 

Amma teaches what Sanathana Dharma teaches, that your birth is

according to past karmas and the mind-set held as you died during

your last birth, and that while there is 4 aims of life that people

usually strive for, the highest is moksha (not mukti). The idea

that God or our Soul has some plan for us is also something that's

common among new-agers/metaphysics, but isn't taught by Amma unless

you're referring to Mahatmas. Thinking that there's some plan (like

thinking there's a soulmate(s) for you) keeps a person searching for

that plan, meaning of their life, soulmate, etc., wasting away their

good karma and time in the process.

 

tom

 

Ammachi, pwhite0130@a... wrote:

>

> This sounds like the typical "Why does God do this to me?" type

question.

>

> It always amazes me that people who ask such questions ignore the

Soul (or

> Spirit or Higher Self or Who You Really Are ... take your pick).

>

> It is the Soul that decides to take on a birth. As some put it, it

is the

> child that chooses the parents not the parents who chose the child.

>

> The Soul takes on a life in order to acquire the experiences It

needs for the

> Spiritual Growth It desires. If taking on a life in a defective

body serves

> that purpose best, the Soul will do so. It takes great courage to

take on a

> life that has great challenges. Yet, this is the fast track, is it

not?

>

> Does God have a Divine Plan for each of us? I don't think so. The

Soul sure

> does! And it has nothing to do with money, position, power or

anything else

> material or physical.

>

> Peter

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Ammachi, pwhite0130@a... wrote:

> This sounds like the typical "Why does God do this to me?" type

question.

>

> It always amazes me that people who ask such questions ignore the

Soul (or

> Spirit or Higher Self or Who You Really Are ... take your pick).

 

Peter,

While I can intellectually appreciate your statement, as a father of

a child, I would have the same questions as Shay's father. It takes a

great deal of faith and even greater amount of grace to be able to

look past this.

 

Namashivaya,

 

Girish

[Guest guest]

Ammachi, "Tom" <tomgull@m...> wrote:

> Peter, not to pick on you, but your description sounds awfully "new-

> agey", and doesn't agree with what Amma teaches (Sanathana

Dharma).

> How can you expect people to recognize or follow their soul,

spirit,

> God, when they can't even do what's right in daily life? There

are

> some "humans" who are obviously new to human birth, where they

> simply don't have the intelligence or intuition to do much more

than

> an animal lifestyle: eat, sleep, earn a living, have a little

> recreation, then repeat.

>

> Amma teaches what Sanathana Dharma teaches, that your birth is

> according to past karmas and the mind-set held as you died during

> your last birth, and that while there is 4 aims of life that people

> usually strive for, the highest is moksha (not mukti). The idea

> that God or our Soul has some plan for us is also something that's

> common among new-agers/metaphysics, but isn't taught by Amma unless

> you're referring to Mahatmas. Thinking that there's some plan

(like

> thinking there's a soulmate(s) for you) keeps a person searching

for

> that plan, meaning of their life, soulmate, etc., wasting away

their

> good karma and time in the process.

>

> tom

>

> Ammachi, pwhite0130@a... wrote:

> >

> > This sounds like the typical "Why does God do this to me?" type

> question.

> >

> > It always amazes me that people who ask such questions ignore the

> Soul (or

> > Spirit or Higher Self or Who You Really Are ... take your pick).

> >

> > It is the Soul that decides to take on a birth. As some put it,

it

> is the

> > child that chooses the parents not the parents who chose the

child.

> >

> > The Soul takes on a life in order to acquire the experiences It

> needs for the

> > Spiritual Growth It desires. If taking on a life in a defective

> body serves

> > that purpose best, the Soul will do so. It takes great courage to

> take on a

> > life that has great challenges. Yet, this is the fast track, is

it

> not?

> >

> > Does God have a Divine Plan for each of us? I don't think so. The

> Soul sure

> > does! And it has nothing to do with money, position, power or

> anything else

> > material or physical.

> >

> > Peter

 

Tom and Peter,

 

I don't think what Peter is saying is new-agey at all. The only thing

I would change is "Does God have a Divine Plan for each of us? I

don't think so. The Soul sure does". The soul is a divine spark, a

small portion of the Divine/God manifest in the being. It is this

spark of the Divine that reincarnates and continues to take on new

bodies so that it can have certain life experiences and evolve. It is

this part of the being that aspires and evolves. Sri Aurobindo spoke

in great length on this. He called the soul the psychic being, that

part of us that takes on new bodies and continues to grow and evolve

after death. Whether someone is conscious of their soul or not does

not change the fact that it exists. Part of the aim of human life is

to wake up to this and recognize this divine spark, the soul, as the

essence of their being. I have heard Amma, hersef, speaking about the

soul which continues after death during a quesion and answer session.

She spoke a little bit about the journey it takes between lives, etc.

 

Lisa

[Guest guest]

Lisa,

 

#1---You say what Peter is saying isn't New-Agey, but you don't give

evidence.

 

#2---You said, "...to take on new bodies so that it can have certain

life experiences and evolve..."------ experiencing and evolving,

classic life goals in New Age/Metaphysics philosophy.

 

#3--You said, "...Part of the aim of human life is to wake up to this

and recognize this divine spark, the soul, as the essence of their

being..."------ Go out and talk to some regular folks in the world

and they couldn't care less about their soul, only about fun and

living a comfortable life. The goal of life being to wake up to your

soul is closer to Jainism (besides Metaphysics/New Age), in which the

goal is Mukti (liberation as in freedom), kinda like a Buddhist

seeking Enlightenment versus Moksha. Moksha is (liberation) "freedom

from rebirth", which can be attained without waking up to your divine

spark, etc.

 

#4--Most of what Amma says, or any true Sanathana Dharma guru says

(one not tainted by metaphysics and new age) is supported by Hindu

scriptures. Granted, there are tons of scriptures, supporting all

kinds of things, but most are directly quotable versus supporting

something only by inference.

 

tom

 

Ammachi, "lbrachlin" <lalita120@h...> wrote:

 

> Tom and Peter,

>

> I don't think what Peter is saying is new-agey at all. The only

thing

> I would change is "Does God have a Divine Plan for each of us? I

> don't think so. The Soul sure does". The soul is a divine spark, a

> small portion of the Divine/God manifest in the being. It is this

> spark of the Divine that reincarnates and continues to take on new

> bodies so that it can have certain life experiences and evolve. It

is

> this part of the being that aspires and evolves. Sri Aurobindo

spoke

> in great length on this. He called the soul the psychic being, that

> part of us that takes on new bodies and continues to grow and

evolve

> after death. Whether someone is conscious of their soul or not does

> not change the fact that it exists. Part of the aim of human life

is

> to wake up to this and recognize this divine spark, the soul, as

the

> essence of their being. I have heard Amma, hersef, speaking about

the

> soul which continues after death during a quesion and answer

session.

> She spoke a little bit about the journey it takes between lives,

etc.

>

> Lisa

[Guest guest]

Ammachi, "Tom" <tomgull@m...> wrote:

> Lisa,

>

> #2---You said, "...to take on new bodies so that it can have

certain

> life experiences and evolve..."------ experiencing and evolving,

> classic life goals in New Age/Metaphysics philosophy.

 

Spiritual evolution is not just a new-age concept. The whole of

kundalini yoga is a spiritual evolution. Involution and evolution are

referred to constantly in Hindu scriptures in this regard. Life

experience is why we reincarnate. We take on human bodies to have

life experiences and to ultimately realize the Divine.

>

> #3--You said, "...Part of the aim of human life is to wake up to

this

> and recognize this divine spark, the soul, as the essence of their

> being..."------ Go out and talk to some regular folks in the world

> and they couldn't care less about their soul, only about fun and

> living a comfortable life. The goal of life being to wake up to

your

> soul is closer to Jainism (besides Metaphysics/New Age), in which

the

> goal is Mukti (liberation as in freedom), kinda like a Buddhist

> seeking Enlightenment versus Moksha. Moksha is

(liberation) "freedom

> from rebirth", which can be attained without waking up to your

divine

> spark, etc.

 

Without knowing your soul, your divine essence, there cannot be any

moksha. Many great beings have also discussed soul power. In fact,

Mahatma Gandhi spoke frequently about soul power. He did a lot of

tapasya to acquire it, and was of the opinion that it was through

soul power that the Indian nation could become liberated. Without

tapping into one's very soul, one's essence, there can be no self-

realization. Otherwise, we'd be a bunch of souless beings...dark and

unenlightened. Just my opinion. Perhaps we're just arguing over words

here. But I think perhaps you can see what I'm saying.

 

L

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/23/02 5:02:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tomgull

writes:

 

<< The second thing is that to repeat myself, you don't need to realize

your Self (achieve self-realization) to obtain Moksha, which can be

obtained by guru's/God's grace at the end of your life. There's two

ways to leave a prison. Those who strive hard can become self-

realized and become a jivanmukta, the same as earning a pardon or

reprieve -- walking out of prison and being free. The other way to

leave prison is to die there and be carried out (without realization,

but gains freedom from prison). I hope this clears up what I'm

saying. Both forms of leaving the prison are Moksha, but only one is

Mukti (i.e. Realization, Enlightenment, etc.).

>>

Dear Tom:

 

This is a very interesting way of looking at enlightment. I like it. May I

also, suggest another view is to free oneself from the concept that the world

is a prision. That life is an adventure to enjoy is another approach.

In Love's Service

malati

[Guest guest]

Lisa, there's a difference between evolution being a fact of life,

and it being a goal of life. That's the point I was trying to

make. Much of new age/metaphysics, many times followers of which

refer to themselves as "spiritual but not religious", deals with what

you've mentioned: getting in touch with your soul/spirit and

evolving spiritually. Although you may find parts of these within

Hinduism and its parts that equate to metaphysics, especially

nowadays, it's not really a part of Sanathana Dharma.

 

The second thing is that to repeat myself, you don't need to realize

your Self (achieve self-realization) to obtain Moksha, which can be

obtained by guru's/God's grace at the end of your life. There's two

ways to leave a prison. Those who strive hard can become self-

realized and become a jivanmukta, the same as earning a pardon or

reprieve -- walking out of prison and being free. The other way to

leave prison is to die there and be carried out (without realization,

but gains freedom from prison). I hope this clears up what I'm

saying. Both forms of leaving the prison are Moksha, but only one is

Mukti (i.e. Realization, Enlightenment, etc.).

 

tom

[Guest guest]

Again, Amma doesn't teach that life is an adventure to enjoy

(enjoyment takes many forms, can lead to more insatiable desires, and

distract one from trying to rid oneself of their ego). Believe me,

I used to be heavily into New Age/Metaphysics before being introduced

to Sanathana Dharma, and I used to be very much one of

those "adventurers". Those who feel that life is an adventure to

enjoy are blinded by the comfort of their good karma (punya).

Eventually you start to burn out your merits and you start facing

reality, enjoyable or not. I'm certainly one who doesn't look at

the cycle of birth/death as a prison as I have heard others refer to

it, but the comparison fits the principles I was trying to convey.

 

Ammachi, DCarlin111@a... wrote:

>

> Dear Tom:

>

> This is a very interesting way of looking at enlightment. I like

it. May I

> also, suggest another view is to free oneself from the concept that

the world

> is a prision. That life is an adventure to enjoy is another

approach.

> In Love's Service

> malati

[Guest guest]

I thought it was that life is an adventure for <the Goddess> to enjoy!

We individual souls are kites adrift on the winds of <samsara>, and when

one of us breaks free and soars off, Mother Kali (the kite-flyer) laughs

and claps her hands in glee. (To paraphrase a Ramprasad lyric.)

 

-- Kalipadma

 

 

On Tue, 24 Sep 2002 00:50:20 -0000 "Tom" <tomgull writes:

> Again, Amma doesn't teach that life is an adventure to enjoy

> (enjoyment takes many forms, can lead to more insatiable desires,

> and

> distract one from trying to rid oneself of their ego). Believe me,

> I used to be heavily into New Age/Metaphysics before being

> introduced

> to Sanathana Dharma, and I used to be very much one of

> those "adventurers". Those who feel that life is an adventure to

> enjoy are blinded by the comfort of their good karma (punya).

> Eventually you start to burn out your merits and you start facing

> reality, enjoyable or not. I'm certainly one who doesn't look at

> the cycle of birth/death as a prison as I have heard others refer to

> it, but the comparison fits the principles I was trying to convey.

>

 

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[Guest guest]

Amma, herself has told devotees to stop being so serious about the path of

enlightenment and learn to laugh more. Maybe I need to use the words laughter

in place of adventure. In my life, if I did not have laughter to face the

reality of "burning out merits" or a new adventure in reality, my ego

perception of reality would have kept me in a limited state of mind.

In Love's Service

malati

 

 

 

In a message dated 9/23/02 8:51:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tomgull

writes:

 

<< Again, Amma doesn't teach that life is an adventure to enjoy

(enjoyment takes many forms, can lead to more insatiable desires, and

distract one from trying to rid oneself of their ego). Believe me,

I used to be heavily into New Age/Metaphysics before being introduced

to Sanathana Dharma, and I used to be very much one of

those "adventurers". Those who feel that life is an adventure to

enjoy are blinded by the comfort of their good karma (punya).

Eventually you start to burn out your merits and you start facing

reality, enjoyable or not. I'm certainly one who doesn't look at

the cycle of birth/death as a prison as I have heard others refer to

it, but the comparison fits the principles I was trying to convey.

 

Ammachi, DCarlin111@a... wrote:

>

> Dear Tom:

>

> This is a very interesting way of looking at enlightment. I like

it. May I

> also, suggest another view is to free oneself from the concept that

the world

> is a prision. That life is an adventure to enjoy is another

approach.

> In Love's Service

> malati

>>

[Guest guest]

Ammachi, "Tom" <tomgull@m...> wrote:

> Lisa, there's a difference between evolution being a fact of

life,

> and it being a goal of life. That's the point I was trying to

> make. Much of new age/metaphysics, many times followers of which

> refer to themselves as "spiritual but not religious", deals with

what

> you've mentioned: getting in touch with your soul/spirit and

> evolving spiritually. Although you may find parts of these

within

> Hinduism and its parts that equate to metaphysics, especially

> nowadays, it's not really a part of Sanathana Dharma.

>

> The second thing is that to repeat myself, you don't need to

realize

> your Self (achieve self-realization) to obtain Moksha, which can be

> obtained by guru's/God's grace at the end of your life. There's

two

> ways to leave a prison. Those who strive hard can become self-

> realized and become a jivanmukta, the same as earning a pardon or

> reprieve -- walking out of prison and being free. The other way

to

> leave prison is to die there and be carried out (without

realization,

> but gains freedom from prison). I hope this clears up what I'm

> saying. Both forms of leaving the prison are Moksha, but only one

is

> Mukti (i.e. Realization, Enlightenment, etc.).

>

> tom

 

Tom,

Thanks for your reply. Actually, when I was speaking of evolution, I

was referring more to it as being a fact of life and not a goal.

Thanks for clearing this up.

 

"What is the theory of evolution? There are two factors: First, a

tremendous potential power is trying to express itself, and secondly,

circumstances are holding it down, its environment not allowing it to

express itself. So in order to fight with this environment, the power

takes new bodies again and again. An amoeba, in the struggle, gets

another body and conquers some obstacles, then gets another body, and

so on until it becomes man. Now, if you carry this idea to its

logical conclusion, there must come a time when the power that was in

the amoeba, and that evolved as man, will have conquered all the

obstructions that nature can bring before it and will this escape

from all its environments.......

 

VIVEKANANDA, The Yogas and Other Works, page 248/Compiled by Sw.

Nikhilananda

 

It's a curious thing you say about Self-Realization/Moksha. It's

something I've thought about a lot, particularly since meeting

Mother. You know, I've always felt that self-realization while still

in the body would be more desirable to this sort of moksha. I wonder

if this type of moksha would still require one to return in another

earthly carnation to attain self-realization through further sadhana.

Lisa

[Guest guest]

May I

> also, suggest another view is to free oneself from the concept that

the world

> is a prision. That life is an adventure to enjoy is another

approach.

> In Love's Service

> malati

 

I think this is an important statement. According to Amma, the world

is a play of consciousness. According to Anandamayi Ma, the world is

a garden. According to the Yoga Vashishta, the world is as you see

it. (According to Kashmir Shaivites, the world is a reflection of the

Lord Shiva, the Supreme Consciousness, and to say it is an illusion

is not true. The Lord creates the universe out of it's own being.)

 

Lisa

[Guest guest]

> It's a curious thing you say about Self-Realization/Moksha. It's

> something I've thought about a lot, particularly since meeting

> Mother. You know, I've always felt that self-realization while still

> in the body would be more desirable to this sort of moksha.

 

I too have thought likewise, and as can be predicted, I would prefer being a

jivanmukta to being liberated at/after death. But when I think about it, I fear

this is my 'ego' talking, where I would like to 'show off' that I am liberated

while living! .... I guess, it is all upto God on whom (S)He decides to bestow

that rare status; our wishing, intense or otherwise, may be only marginal to

that end. Thinking so, I have surrendered that wish at Amma's feet, but once in

a while, that thought surfaces.

 

> I wonder if this type of moksha would still require one to return in another

> earthly carnation to attain self-realization through further sadhana.

> Lisa

 

I can attempt to offer my view on this, although I can hardly claim to be in

the know-how.... I have been humbled to read in Paramahansa Yogananada's

'Autobiography of a Yogi' that Nirviklpa Samadhi may just not be the end of it

all. Per the book, each unenlightened soul is encased in 3 bodies - the

physical, astral, and the causal (NOT casual!) - each in increasing layer of

subtlety. The soul that has attained liberation from the physical sheath may go

into nirvikalpa samadhi (at will or forever), however that still may not

indicate that he/she may exhausted all the astral/causal karma.

 

There is a higher / lower astral world. Unenlightened beings go back and forth

between the material and the lower astral world for a certain period of time;

souls who have experienced savilakpa samadhi (and can bring it on at will) go

to the higher astral world for a certain period of time. Either way, if the

soul cannot exhaust his astral karma (or he has not yet fully exhausted his

physical karma while in any of the astral worlds), he comes back to the

physical world to finish it off. This cycle goes on till all debts in the lower

(physical) world are paid off.

 

Next, the soul undergoes a similar cycle between the astral and the causal

worlds, flitting back and forth between the 2 worlds till the lower (astral)

world's debts are paid off.

 

Next is the extremely thin sheath - the causal world. When the karma here is

finally paid off, that soul has merged completely in the Divine.

 

Alternatively, the soul may knock off all types of identifications and karma

while still in the physicl world, and merge completely. Kind of like taking 3

steps at a time, vs taking 1 step at a time.

 

No more incarnations for him, unless God decides to send him/her down for a

purpose (keep in mind that he/she is not separate from God at that point).

 

The example of Sw. Vivekanada is relevant here. It is said that Sw. V is a

great sage constantly meditating in the Himalayan caves. Sri Ramakrishna

perceived him in His meditation and requsted him to take birth for the good of

the world, which he did. If such a great soul who was tremendously intelligent

and perceptive, came to earth and went through such terrible trials and doubts

as Sw. V did (he was almost atheistic at a point of his sadhana), think what

ordinary mortals go through... To answer your question, they may come down as

an incarnation, to fulfil a purpose, or could stay Home forever!

 

Another example is Sw Sri Yukteshwar Giri, guru to Yogananda. Completely merged

into the Divine while yet living, He is said to have gone to a higher astral

world after his exit from this world, being a 'guru' to high souls who were

attempting to work off their astral karma to go still higher. He said that God

placed Him there to help the struggling souls (odd to describe a soul as

struggling who has atleast experienced savikalpa samadhi in his physical

life!).

 

You may read more in the chapter 'The Resurrection of Sri Yukteshwar' in the

book.

 

These are so abstruse points that I hope I have represented them correctly. May

God forgive me, if otherwise.

 

Jai Ma!

manoj.

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Ammachi, Manoj Menon <manoj_menon> wrote:

> I too have thought likewise, and as can be predicted, I would

prefer being a

> jivanmukta to being liberated at/after death. But when I think

about it, I fear

> this is my 'ego' talking, where I would like to 'show off' that I

am liberated

> while living! .... I guess, it is all upto God on whom (S)He

decides to bestow

> that rare status; our wishing, intense or otherwise, may be only

marginal to

> that end. Thinking so, I have surrendered that wish at Amma's feet,

but once in

> a while, that thought surfaces.

>

> > I wonder if this type of moksha would still require one to return

in another

> > earthly carnation to attain self-realization through further

sadhana.

> > Lisa

>

> I can attempt to offer my view on this, although I can hardly claim

to be in

> the know-how.... I have been humbled to read in Paramahansa

Yogananada's

> 'Autobiography of a Yogi' that Nirviklpa Samadhi may just not be

the end of it

> all. Per the book, each unenlightened soul is encased in 3 bodies -

the

> physical, astral, and the causal (NOT casual!) - each in increasing

layer of

> subtlety. The soul that has attained liberation from the physical

sheath may go

> into nirvikalpa samadhi (at will or forever), however that still

may not

> indicate that he/she may exhausted all the astral/causal karma.

>

> There is a higher / lower astral world. Unenlightened beings go

back and forth

> between the material and the lower astral world for a certain

period of time;

> souls who have experienced savilakpa samadhi (and can bring it on

at will) go

> to the higher astral world for a certain period of time. Either

way, if the

> soul cannot exhaust his astral karma (or he has not yet fully

exhausted his

> physical karma while in any of the astral worlds), he comes back to

the

> physical world to finish it off. This cycle goes on till all debts

in the lower

> (physical) world are paid off.

>

> Next, the soul undergoes a similar cycle between the astral and the

causal

> worlds, flitting back and forth between the 2 worlds till the lower

(astral)

> world's debts are paid off.

>

> Next is the extremely thin sheath - the causal world. When the

karma here is

> finally paid off, that soul has merged completely in the Divine.

>

> Alternatively, the soul may knock off all types of identifications

and karma

> while still in the physicl world, and merge completely. Kind of

like taking 3

> steps at a time, vs taking 1 step at a time.

>

> No more incarnations for him, unless God decides to send him/her

down for a

> purpose (keep in mind that he/she is not separate from God at that

point).

>

> The example of Sw. Vivekanada is relevant here. It is said that Sw.

V is a

> great sage constantly meditating in the Himalayan caves. Sri

Ramakrishna

> perceived him in His meditation and requsted him to take birth for

the good of

> the world, which he did. If such a great soul who was tremendously

intelligent

> and perceptive, came to earth and went through such terrible trials

and doubts

> as Sw. V did (he was almost atheistic at a point of his sadhana),

think what

> ordinary mortals go through... To answer your question, they may

come down as

> an incarnation, to fulfil a purpose, or could stay Home forever!

>

> Another example is Sw Sri Yukteshwar Giri, guru to Yogananda.

Completely merged

> into the Divine while yet living, He is said to have gone to a

higher astral

> world after his exit from this world, being a 'guru' to high souls

who were

> attempting to work off their astral karma to go still higher. He

said that God

> placed Him there to help the struggling souls (odd to describe a

soul as

> struggling who has atleast experienced savikalpa samadhi in his

physical

> life!).

>

> You may read more in the chapter 'The Resurrection of Sri

Yukteshwar' in the

> book.

>

> These are so abstruse points that I hope I have represented them

correctly. May

> God forgive me, if otherwise.

>

> Jai Ma!

> manoj.

 

Manoj,

 

I really enjoyed your post, and it gives me a lot to think about. But

as far as jivanmukta goes, it's my understanding that this planet

earth is considered karma loka in Hindu philosophy, and it is here

that souls come to work out their karma...at least their earthly

karma. I would guess that when the earthly karma is finished, there's

no need to return here unless one is working for the upliftment of

humanity. But I would think it would be important to kind of test

one's state of liberation here by being a jivanmukta for some time.

But then, as you say, that could be my ego dictating. It's

interesting that even the gods desire a human birth, because it is

here, on this planet, that progress can be made and karma burnt.

 

Thanks again for your post, Lisa

[Guest guest]

I think it's in the Yoga Sutras that says it's only through human

birth can one attain Liberation, which I'm guessing is Moksha vs.

Mukti, since I don't have the transliteration in front of me right

now. What makes New Age/MetaP popular is the belief that there's

some grand scheme of evolution into higher and higher states,

eventually becoming the one God yourself which is very attractive to

the ego, versus the death of the ego. That's why egoistic people

will quote Sai Baba as having said "transcend the ego", and claim he

says not to get rid of it. Well, if you leave the earth in a

rocket, I'd say you've transcended the earth, but have certainly

left it behind, getting rid of it.

 

Liberation (Mukti) is attractive to people because they think they'll

suddenly have real freedom and can do anything they want (fulfill

their desires), but reaching that state means being attracted to the

Supreme, and no longer being attracted to the dream, the illusion.

Moksha is desired by those who realize that even within a good life

(good fortune) there's suffering (ie., your friends suffer, you get

bored/gluttony, you forget God). It's the nature of a dualistic

world.

 

The physical, subtle and causal is what I think Manoj

s talking about "worlds", not the koshas/sheaths. Depending on what

you're talking about there's 3 worlds, 7 worlds, etc.

 

tom

 

Ammachi, "lbrachlin" <lalita120@h...> wrote:

> Manoj,

>

> I really enjoyed your post, and it gives me a lot to think about.

But

> as far as jivanmukta goes, it's my understanding that this planet

> earth is considered karma loka in Hindu philosophy, and it is here

> that souls come to work out their karma...at least their earthly

> karma. I would guess that when the earthly karma is finished,

there's

> no need to return here unless one is working for the upliftment of

> humanity. But I would think it would be important to kind of test

> one's state of liberation here by being a jivanmukta for some time.

> But then, as you say, that could be my ego dictating. It's

> interesting that even the gods desire a human birth, because it is

> here, on this planet, that progress can be made and karma burnt.

>

> Thanks again for your post, Lisa

[Guest guest]

>

> The physical, subtle and causal is what I think Manoj

> s talking about "worlds", not the koshas/sheaths. Depending on what

> you're talking about there's 3 worlds, 7 worlds, etc.

>

> tom

 

Actually, Tom, I am no authority on this, but I would like to my understanding

is that the worlds and koshas/sheaths are 'equivalent'.

 

i.e.,

 

in the physical world (earth), you have all 3 koshas - Physical, Astral, and

Causal - and the physical is the outermost kosha and the causal the innermost.

 

in the astral world, you have 2 koshas - astral and causal. You dropped the

physical kosha at death.

 

in the causal world, you have that 1 thin kosha only - causal.

 

Hope this explains why I used the word 'worlds' only, assuming that we all

understand that we can be in the worlds with the equivalent koshas.

 

Another fascinating is that, in the physical world, you can knock off your

karma of all 3 layers. Whereas if you are in the astral world and still have

some physical karma, then you cannot knock it off there; you got to come back

to earth, baby! Likewise amongst the astral and causal worlds.

 

All this is pretty fascinating and humbling. So many miles to go before I sleep

....

 

Jai Ma!

manoj.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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