Digest Number 605

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/24/02 7:21:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

Ammachi writes:

 

Dear Tom:

Where'd you come up with this?:

 

> The second thing is that to repeat myself, you don't need to realize

> your Self (achieve self-realization) to obtain Moksha, which can be

> obtained by guru's/God's grace at the end of your life. There's two

> ways to leave a prison. Those who strive hard can become self-

> realized and become a jivanmukta, the same as earning a pardon or

> reprieve -- walking out of prison and being free. The other way to

> leave prison is to die there and be carried out (without realization,

> but gains freedom from prison). I hope this clears up what I'm

> saying. Both forms of leaving the prison are Moksha, but only one is

> Mukti (i.e. Realization, Enlightenment, etc.).

>

>

You are saying that you can attain liberation without realization. Where do

you get this from? It sounds impossible, in that without realizing the

Absolute, someone can be freed from rebirth, simply by dying and having a

Guru pluck you out, so to speak. I never heard this. Seems to me that the

Guru would be acting in such a way to complete the self-realization, not

divert one from it and give liberation somehow. Not to mention the problem

that many believe that you not only need to have an enlightenment experience,

but also must actualize it in your life. If this is so, then having

liberation without either of the two seems clearly ridiculous. I have never,

by the way, seen this distinction you make between moksha and mukti; where

did you get that from? Avram

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Go through everything Amma says in Her books, go through Sanathana

Dharma scriptures, words from other recognized sadgurus. For

example, the idea that if you've committed a life of sin, but with in

your last moments you realize your mistakes and are able to say the

name of God with your last breath, such a person deserves Liberation

(moksha). I'm not sure if this was from a scripture story or a

particular blessing from a particular sage.

 

It's also when Amma says about a devotee who has died, something

like, "Don't worry, they've been absorbed in Me (Self, Absolute)".

Or when Swamiji told the story of when Amma stepped on a slug and

someone said, "Oh, that slug just attained Liberation" (having died

at the feet of a Realized Soul).

 

It's the ego that wants the freedom of being a jivanmukta. But it's

the death of the ego that needs to happen to become a jivanmukta.

This is why many people run in circles in their sadhana.

 

Perhaps those who don't understand could ask Dayamrita or Amma at

their next Q & A session. In Sanathana Dharma (Hindus), the goal

is Moksha. For Jains (like Osho) the goal is Mukti. This is to

the best of my understanding.

 

tom

 

 

Ammachi, sprose1@a... wrote:

> In a message dated 9/24/02 7:21:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

> Ammachi writes:

>

> Dear Tom:

> Where'd you come up with this?:

> You are saying that you can attain liberation without realization.

Where do

> you get this from? It sounds impossible, in that without realizing

the

> Absolute, someone can be freed from rebirth, simply by dying and

having a

> Guru pluck you out, so to speak. I never heard this. Seems to me

that the

> Guru would be acting in such a way to complete the self-

realization, not

> divert one from it and give liberation somehow. Not to mention the

problem

> that many believe that you not only need to have an enlightenment

experience,

> but also must actualize it in your life. If this is so, then

having

> liberation without either of the two seems clearly ridiculous. I

have never,

> by the way, seen this distinction you make between moksha and

mukti; where

> did you get that from? Avram

[Guest guest]

Ammachi, "Tom" <tomgull@m...> wrote:

> Go through everything Amma says in Her books, go through Sanathana

> Dharma scriptures, words from other recognized sadgurus. For

> example, the idea that if you've committed a life of sin, but with

in

> your last moments you realize your mistakes and are able to say the

> name of God with your last breath, such a person deserves

Liberation

> (moksha). I'm not sure if this was from a scripture story or a

> particular blessing from a particular sage.

 

I think some of these stories are allegorical. I think realizing

one's mistakes is not enough for liberation. It has been said that

one does sadhana to prepare oneself for the moment of death, and

one's next birth depends a great deal on the way one previously left

the world. Perhaps one has reached some sort of liberation, but not

necessarily the final emancipation. But if one is free of karma, then

I guess you could say that someone has attained liberation.

>

> It's also when Amma says about a devotee who has died, something

> like, "Don't worry, they've been absorbed in Me (Self, Absolute)".

 

I've always been curious about this.

 

> Or when Swamiji told the story of when Amma stepped on a slug and

> someone said, "Oh, that slug just attained Liberation" (having died

> at the feet of a Realized Soul).

 

I don't think this means the slug is completely liberated from

further births. I think this would mean the slug is, perhaps,

liberated from it's slughood (sluggishness, ha ha!) Besides, it's not

Amma who said this but someone else.