Guest guest Posted October 2, 2002 Report Share Posted October 2, 2002 Well, I think we are enjoying this important foray into the nature of realisation! I am on several forums, so I bring a different view to this group, I guess. I am impressed by the argument that one has to bring enlightenment into one's bones, in a sense. There are many of us who have had experiences and insights, but we do not bring it into ourself deeply enough. I think this view honors life on earth in the sense that it says that we are to live in the world as men or women on the basis of realization, not just hope that in our one final moment we somehow think of God and disappear forever into....into what (anyone have any idea what It would be, for real?) You don't know, you could prepare forever and then die in your sleep while dreaming of hundreds of naked devis...then what? I feel a certain guilt with the view of hoping our last moment does it all as it does not affirm life: makes me feel guilt. The other view affirms life, on earth, as a man (not a would-be realizer, but as a human being), bringing realization into life in the world. It has a convincing ring to it, does it not? But, I don't know what to think about the cases where Amma has said that someone died into Her, which are actually quite a few in number. Doesn't it seem like a let down, that just when it was getting interesting, poof you die. No, I think you should want it while alive, and get it while alive, and live fully, then die and merge into it on another level. I refute those who would call this egotism, that I want to be God on earth, how egoic. No, I see it my way, as trying to live AS dead, rather than waste my life preparing for my one great Carnegie Hall recital of death. Some people die on the toilet, you know, then what? In answer to LIsa, I refer to Godman's books on the Maharshi. Buy all of them. He is still compiling autobiographical accounts from living and dead devotees. I met Godman, and have spoken with his now ex-wife; he's a good man, Godman. On anohter site I am debating free will vs. determinism in the thoughts of Maharshi. It is a great topic to think about, for he believed that our every thought and gesture is pre-determined. It is our illusion that we think we are doing it, and that we think we have free will, that needs to be seen through. The only free will we have is not to change a thing about ourself, only to do self-enquiry. There is no free will, even for the jnani. But that's another story. All for now. Avram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2002 Report Share Posted October 2, 2002 Just a small interjection on the liberation-at-the-end-of-life concept... I tend to think of the crucial, final moment as a kind of fractal ie. a part that both reflects and contains the whole within it and yet is not capable of being generated by any linear decision rule. (When I say 'whole' here I am referring not just to the summation of one life's experiences but to the sum of all lifetimes lived by the individual jiva). Viewed this way, it is possible to account for the preponderant weight placed on the final moment as a determinant of mukti without making the whole spiritual quest seem capricious or chance-driven. So the worldly businessman in the fable who called out to his son, Narayana (a name of the Lord), was liberated and the great sage (dang!, can't remember the name) who thought of a deer in his final moment was obliged to take birth again as a deer to fulfill his yearning. These instances do not disturb the law of karma, so far as I understand it. The lesson that emerges, IMHO, is that trying to target the final moment is not the way to go about it because that would involve focussing on results rather than effort. Effort is all that lies within our control, in Samsara - the world of illusion, of course. It is therefore futile to go through life without making any effort, expecting to turn the final moment to advantage. It is also futile to expect that a life full of effort will result in a 'suitable' final moment; the final moment may be pre-destined but it may not be computable. Actually, come to think of it, that applies to the rest of life as well. Why just apply it to the final moment? Regards to all Ammachi, sprose1@a... wrote: > Well, I think we are enjoying this important foray into the nature of > realisation! I am on several forums, so I bring a different view to this > group, I guess. I am impressed by the argument that one has to bring > enlightenment into one's bones, in a sense. There are many of us who have > had experiences and insights, but we do not bring it into ourself deeply > enough. I think this view honors life on earth in the sense that it says > that we are to live in the world as men or women on the basis of realization, > not just hope that in our one final moment we somehow think of God and > disappear forever into....into what (anyone have any idea what It would be, > for real?) You don't know, you could prepare forever and then die in your > sleep while dreaming of hundreds of naked devis...then what? I feel a > certain guilt with the view of hoping our last moment does it all as it does > not affirm life: makes me feel guilt. The other view affirms life, on > earth, as a man (not a would-be realizer, but as a human being), bringing > realization into life in the world. It has a convincing ring to it, does it > not? But, I don't know what to think about the cases where Amma has said > that someone died into Her, which are actually quite a few in number. > Doesn't it seem like a let down, that just when it was getting interesting, > poof you die. No, I think you should want it while alive, and get it while > alive, and live fully, then die and merge into it on another level. I refute > those who would call this egotism, that I want to be God on earth, how egoic. > No, I see it my way, as trying to live AS dead, rather than waste my life > preparing for my one great Carnegie Hall recital of death. Some people die > on the toilet, you know, then what? > > In answer to LIsa, I refer to Godman's books on the Maharshi. Buy all of > them. He is still compiling autobiographical accounts from living and dead > devotees. I met Godman, and have spoken with his now ex-wife; he's a good > man, Godman. On anohter site I am debating free will vs. determinism in the > thoughts of Maharshi. It is a great topic to think about, for he believed > that our every thought and gesture is pre-determined. It is our illusion > that we think we are doing it, and that we think we have free will, that > needs to be seen through. The only free will we have is not to change a > thing about ourself, only to do self-enquiry. There is no free will, even > for the jnani. But that's another story. All for now. Avram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2002 Report Share Posted October 2, 2002 > Viewed this way, it is possible to account for the preponderant > weight placed on the final moment as a determinant of mukti without > making the whole spiritual quest seem capricious or chance-driven. So > the worldly businessman in the fable who called out to his son, > Narayana (a name of the Lord), was liberated and the great sage > (dang!, can't remember the name) who thought of a deer in his final > moment was obliged to take birth again as a deer to fulfill his > yearning. These instances do not disturb the law of karma, so far as > I understand it. > > The lesson that emerges, IMHO, is that trying to target the final > moment is not the way to go about it because that would involve > focussing on results rather than effort. Effort is all that lies > within our control, in Samsara - the world of illusion, of course. It > is therefore futile to go through life without making any effort, > expecting to turn the final moment to advantage. It is also futile to > expect that a life full of effort will result in a 'suitable' final > moment; the final moment may be pre-destined but it may not be > computable. Actually, come to think of it, that applies to the rest > of life as well. Why just apply it to the final moment? > > Regards to all This is correct, I feel. The fact that you can take the Lord's name or think about Him at the last moment speaks of only one thing - intense sadhana done over many lifetimes that gives the jiva the last stretch of self-control to do what he wanted, especially as the prana is fast ebbing away from the body-cage. When the prana is going out of your life, it is said that it is extremely difficult to stay focussed on anything, as the force that binds the body, mind and spirit are disintegrating rapidly, and our minds are whirling as if tossed into a hugely powerful hurricane (like Lili?). A similar example of this whirlwind experience can be found in everyday life - try thinking of God in moments of extreme stress when you have to meet project deadlines, or when you have to reach office by 8 am and you wake up at 7:45 am etc .... get the picture? I am not saying it is impossible, I am only saying that it is no mean achievement. If it is so difficult to practice constant remembrance in everyday situations when the prana is more or less intact, think how infinitely difficult it will be to do so when the prana is escaping the body. Only many years (probably across lifetimes) of intense discipline and/or Grace can give us that rare opportunity of thinking of the Guru/God at the last moment. Instead of thinking of anything as a "random, meaningless" act, it is better to think that there is a hidden meaning behind it all. I have found that merely accepting that statement is a huge de-stresser, as I don't have to 'figure out' if every single thing that happens in this world happens correctly or not. I often realize that I really don't need to figure all that out either, as it was just an intellectual distraction in my true pursuit. And this acceptance is nothing but an aspect of surrender - to the laws of nature. Jai Ma! manoj. New DSL Internet Access from SBC & http://sbc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2002 Report Share Posted October 3, 2002 --- Manoj Menon <manoj_menon wrote: > > Viewed this way, it is possible to account for the > preponderant > > weight placed on the final moment as a determinant > of mukti without > > making the whole spiritual quest seem capricious > or chance-driven. So > > the worldly businessman in the fable who called > out to his son, > > Narayana (a name of the Lord), was liberated and > the great sage > > (dang!, can't remember the name) who thought of a > deer in his final > > moment was obliged to take birth again as a deer > to fulfill his > > yearning. These instances do not disturb the law > of karma, so far as > > I understand it. > > > > The lesson that emerges, IMHO, is that trying to > target the final > > moment is not the way to go about it because that > would involve > > focussing on results rather than effort. Effort is > all that lies > > within our control, in Samsara - the world of > illusion, of course. It > > is therefore futile to go through life without > making any effort, > > expecting to turn the final moment to advantage. > It is also futile to > > expect that a life full of effort will result in a > 'suitable' final > > moment; the final moment may be pre-destined but > it may not be > > computable. Actually, come to think of it, that > applies to the rest > > of life as well. Why just apply it to the final > moment? > > > > Regards to all > > This is correct, I feel. The fact that you can take > the Lord's name or think > about Him at the last moment speaks of only one > thing - intense sadhana done > over many lifetimes that gives the jiva the last > stretch of self-control to do > what he wanted, especially as the prana is fast > ebbing away from the body-cage. > > When the prana is going out of your life, it is said > that it is extremely > difficult to stay focussed on anything, as the force > that binds the body, mind > and spirit are disintegrating rapidly, and our minds > are whirling as if tossed > into a hugely powerful hurricane (like Lili?). > > A similar example of this whirlwind experience can > be found in everyday life - > try thinking of God in moments of extreme stress > when you have to meet project > deadlines, or when you have to reach office by 8 am > and you wake up at 7:45 am > etc .... get the picture? I am not saying it is > impossible, I am only saying > that it is no mean achievement. If it is so > difficult to practice constant > remembrance in everyday situations when the prana is > more or less intact, think > how infinitely difficult it will be to do so when > the prana is escaping the > body. Only many years (probably across lifetimes) of > intense discipline and/or > Grace can give us that rare opportunity of thinking > of the Guru/God at the last > moment. > > Instead of thinking of anything as a "random, > meaningless" act, it is better to > think that there is a hidden meaning behind it all. > I have found that merely > accepting that statement is a huge de-stresser, as I > don't have to 'figure out' > if every single thing that happens in this world > happens correctly or not. I > often realize that I really don't need to figure all > that out either, as it was > just an intellectual distraction in my true pursuit. > > And this acceptance is nothing but an aspect of > surrender - to the laws of > nature. > > Jai Ma! > manoj. > I would like to add comment in regards to the name of God being called at the last minute of once life . From what I have noticed and heard usually people in despair and in sudden danger the first thing that comes to once mouth is OH GOD !!!!! , Just few days ago a person walking next to me almost got hit by a car , immediately the individual exclaimed GOD , My point is if this happens so to speak almost spontaneously , in most cases from what I have observed why do Great Sages say it is so difficult and requaiers severe sadana , chanting of Mantras ect...? This is a comment with a question In Amma 's Love Joanna S > > > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & > http://sbc. > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & http://sbc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2002 Report Share Posted October 3, 2002 Ammachi, joanna pollner <joannapollner> wrote: > I would like to add comment in regards to the > name of God being called at the last minute of once > life . From what I have noticed and heard usually > people in despair and in sudden danger the first thing > that comes to once mouth is OH GOD !!!!! , > > Just few days ago a person walking next to me > almost got hit by a car , immediately the individual > exclaimed GOD , > > My point is if this happens so to speak almost > spontaneously , in most cases from what I have > observed why do Great Sages say it is so difficult > and requaiers severe sadana , chanting of Mantras > ect...? This is a comment with a question > > In Amma 's Love Joanna S Joanna, I'd like to say it's not so much the thing as the attitude of the thing. Perhaps you've heard the story of the murderer with the knife and the surgeon with the knife. One cuts into the person/victim to kill, the other cuts into the person/patient to save. It is not so much the act but the attitude behind the act which determines the nature of the act. So, too, with exclaiming "God" at a dire moment. In a society where we shout, "God Damn it!", "Jesus Christ!" or "Oh, God!" not always out of reverance but out of cultural upbringing, I think it's important to understand the underlying attitude behind this exclamation. Lisa > > > > > > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & > > http://sbc. > > > > > > > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & > http://sbc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2002 Report Share Posted October 3, 2002 Ammachi, "lbrachlin" <lalita120@h...> wrote: > Ammachi, joanna pollner <joannapollner> wrote: > > > > I would like to add comment in regards to the > > name of God being called at the last minute of once > > life . From what I have noticed and heard usually > > people in despair and in sudden danger the first thing > > that comes to once mouth is OH GOD !!!!! , > > > > Just few days ago a person walking next to me > > almost got hit by a car , immediately the individual > > exclaimed GOD , > > > > My point is if this happens so to speak almost > > spontaneously , in most cases from what I have > > observed why do Great Sages say it is so difficult > > and requaiers severe sadana , chanting of Mantras > > ect...? This is a comment with a question > > > > In Amma 's Love Joanna S > > Joanna, > > I'd like to say it's not so much the thing as the attitude of the > thing. Perhaps you've heard the story of the murderer with the knife > and the surgeon with the knife. One cuts into the person/victim to > kill, the other cuts into the person/patient to save. It is not so > much the act but the attitude behind the act which determines the > nature of the act. So, too, with exclaiming "God" at a dire moment. In > a society where we shout, "God Damn it!", "Jesus Christ!" or "Oh, > God!" not always out of reverance but out of cultural upbringing, I > think it's important to understand the underlying attitude behind this > exclamation. > Lisa P.S. It should be out of a strong faith, self-surrender and life-long conviction that one repeats the name of God...not just out of stress, fear and hopelessness. This is why repeating "Ram" when Gandhi was assasinated was so significant. Lisa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2002 Report Share Posted October 3, 2002 I agree. Saying the name of God with your last breath is more about your mindset as you die, not merely the karma of saying the right word. tom Ammachi, "lbrachlin" <lalita120@h...> wrote: > > > > I'd like to say it's not so much the thing as the attitude of the > > thing. Perhaps you've heard the story of the murderer with the knife > > and the surgeon with the knife. One cuts into the person/victim to > > kill, the other cuts into the person/patient to save. It is not so > > much the act but the attitude behind the act which determines the > > nature of the act. So, too, with exclaiming "God" at a dire moment. > In > > a society where we shout, "God Damn it!", "Jesus Christ!" or "Oh, > > God!" not always out of reverance but out of cultural upbringing, I > > think it's important to understand the underlying attitude behind > this > > exclamation. > > Lisa > > P.S. It should be out of a strong faith, self-surrender and life- long > conviction that one repeats the name of God...not just out of stress, > fear and hopelessness. This is why repeating "Ram" when Gandhi was > assasinated was so significant. > > Lisa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2002 Report Share Posted October 3, 2002 --- Tom <tomgull wrote: > I agree. Saying the name of God with your last > breath is more about > your mindset as you die, not merely the karma of > saying the right > word. > I agree and not , it is not so much for the mind + set rather the condition of the heart , however all can also change with the grace of Guru we dont know these things , logic sometimes plays a role sometimes not does it depends on Karma ? maybe yes maybe not !!!!!!!! Logically Yes , but yes there is a but and the big wave of Love and Forgiveness can destroy all Karma , so the Truth is best not to worry to much but to live in Love and to follow the Bliss regards , Joanna S > tom > > > Ammachi, "lbrachlin" <lalita120@h...> > wrote: > > > > > > I'd like to say it's not so much the thing as > the attitude of the > > > thing. Perhaps you've heard the story of the > murderer with the > knife > > > and the surgeon with the knife. One cuts into > the person/victim > to > > > kill, the other cuts into the person/patient to > save. It is not > so > > > much the act but the attitude behind the act > which determines the > > > nature of the act. So, too, with exclaiming > "God" at a dire > moment. > > In > > > a society where we shout, "God Damn it!", "Jesus > Christ!" or "Oh, > > > God!" not always out of reverance but out of > cultural upbringing, > I > > > think it's important to understand the > underlying attitude behind > > this > > > exclamation. > > > Lisa > > > > P.S. It should be out of a strong faith, > self-surrender and life- > long > > conviction that one repeats the name of God...not > just out of > stress, > > fear and hopelessness. This is why repeating "Ram" > when Gandhi was > > assasinated was so significant. > > > > Lisa > > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & http://sbc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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