Digest Number 614

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In a message dated 10/3/02 10:55:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

Ammachi writes:

 

 

> Ammachi, sprose1@a... wrote:

> >..... Don't forget that Ramana Maharshi had his

> > renowned enlightenment experience at age 16. He then sat in

> meditation....

>

> Beginner's mistake: using the exception to defend a rule. People

> like Ramana Maharshi reach high states early in life because their

> karma made them ripe for it or they were a true incarnation.

 

::You're off the mark. I did not intend that passage to imply that

enlightenment has to happen at age 16 as you seem to imply in your response.

I used the passage to illustrate that a well-known sage sat for three years

AFTER reaching self-realization or whatever word you seem to have a

preference for. The point is that even such a great soul as Ramana was not

finished when realization came; he had to grok it, he had to stabilize in it,

before saying a word of upadesa to anyone. That is the point, Tom.

>

> then there's a difference between simply being a jivanmukta and

> having various other abilities. For example, just because you

> realize the self, doesn't make you a guru. For that, you'd need to

> realize the guru-tattva, or guru-principle. How far a person goes

> past the line of mukti depends on their karma, efforts and

> guru's/God's grace in the over all plan of things. Not everyone

> that realizes their Self or attains Enlightenment is destined to be a

> guru or super yogi.

 

 

: This passage of yours is true. Many who become enlightened, equal to the

Maharshi may choose not to play the Guru role; he may sit and radiate the

Self silently, but actively. This alone does not make him lesser or greater

than Ramana.

 

>

> >....I think you intend one of them to be

> > > liberation without understanding, which is quite an incongruous

> > > understanding, as far as I can see.

> > Avram

>

> Try less self and more discrimination. Look at your overall

> plan. Once you attain Enlightenment, what then? Become a god or

> super yogi and have a little fun? Live a few lifetimes of various

> occupations, personas that you desire (ie, king, actor, etc.). How

> about evolving further until you are the one God and you can create

> endless Universes at your command and all will worship you. Ok,

> been there done that. Now what? Do it all again? Ok, been there

> done that. Understand the nature of time and how it relates to

> experience, and you'll understand why souls seek moksha. As Amma

> says, "the Universe is created and destroyed in an instant".

 

::This passage is where you get bizarre, as far as I can understand. My view

of enlightenment has absolutely nothing to do with having fun, and being a

big ego. I can't believe you are saying this. I guess that's how you must

see attaining Self-Realization, becoming an even grander ego and lording it

above all. too bad. My view is that of Ramana or Amma. Why would you think

otherwise? Are they big, high-falutin egos to you? If not, then why do you

hold this extreme view which has no basis in the traditions? Again, I am

becoming convinced that Self-Realization is to be had in life, not in the

moment of death. Whether it even can happen during death is dubious to me,

but even if so, it would seem to lack the fullness which Self-realization

would have if embodied in life. Why is it so hard to understand that? That

is what your own Guru is doing, for God's sake; or if you don't like that,

take Ramakrishna, or Maharshi, or Nityananda. Every Guru you can think of,

logically, had to have Self-Realization prior to death or they would never

have been known at all!! Whether they achieved it during life, or were born

already clear is not even the issue, as the point remains that they LIVED

their realization, not died into it. Please stop seeing Self-Realization as

being a rock star.

 

>

> The more inward drawn you are (the same when actually in a

> meditative/dhyaana state), the faster time passes by. If you're

> meditating and time seems normal or slow, you're just still

> concentrating still trying to meditate. You'll know when you've

> reached a state of meditation when it doesn't feel like much time has

> passed, but alot has. This is how detachment can come naturaly if

> you just persist with sadhana will Faith that you will make progress.

 

 

::What would you do if, having done this, you actually become Self-Realized

in life? Again, I have no idea what you mean by Enlightenment vs. Moksha;

most of us do not draw this distinction, nor do I know on what authority you

base your seemingly idiosyncratic views. Avram

 

> tom

>

>

>

> ______________________

> ______________________

>

> Message: 3

> Wed, 02 Oct 2002 19:28:57 -0000

> "Tom" <tomgull

> Re: Digest Number 611

>

> Ammachi, "lbrachlin" <lalita120@h...> wrote:

>

> > Hi Avram,

> > I agree with much of your train of thought.

> > Several of the Hindu scriptures say self-realization requires to

> > wings of a bird, both self-effort and grace. It is a mysterious

> > process, and not always obvious to the untrained, unenlightened

> eye.

>

> >> I think it's more than the ego that craves liberation. The soul

> > inherently aspires towards it. It is the soul that aspires for

> > liberation and it's inherent nature. If it is the ego alone that

> > craves liberation, it may eventually just get in the way and never

> > really find it at all.

>

> My point is that it's the ego that craves liberation in the form of

> mukti so that it can do what it wants, and have liberation when and

> how IT wants it (no humility). It is the soul/jiva that craves

> moksha, but not until a certain amount of living lifetimes. In

> other words, if everything's going great, why would you want to be

> free of it? In other's lifetimes, new to being human, they are

> still experiencing things and will not have any inclination towards

> lofty goals such as dharma or moksha probably not even having the

> intellectual ability to really understand what you're talking about.

>

>

> tom

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/3/02 10:55:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

Ammachi writes:

Dear Faint one:

 

> The lesson that emerges, IMHO, is that trying to target the final

> moment is not the way to go about it because that would involve

> focussing on results rather than effort. Effort is all that lies

> within our control, in Samsara - the world of illusion, of course. It

> is therefore futile to go through life without making any effort,

> expecting to turn the final moment to advantage. It is also futile to

> expect that a life full of effort will result in a 'suitable' final

> moment; the final moment may be pre-destined but it may not be

> computable. Actually, come to think of it, that applies to the rest

> of life as well. Why just apply it to the final moment?

 

 

::What I would add to your delicate consideration is this. that while alive

you have some control over what you think and feel, but when you are dying or

just dead the mind continues like a train whose engines have stopped but

which has energy left. I don't think you'll be there hanging around and

going,"Now, what am I supposed to do as I'm dying? Oh yeah, I should think

of god, now how about that? God God God.."That's what is tricky about the

statement that it's best to think of god at that time. Sounds easy. I'll

just live in a mediocre way and then at death, I'll just think of God real

hard. Chances are almost 100% that it is not like that. As you grow weaker

and weaker and life slips out, that's when all your prayers and stuff will

either bear fruit or not. In that sense your whole life is a preparation for

death. Not in the sense that you have rehearsed well and will hopefully

recall to think "God." Rather, that the train of tendencies you have done all

your life will come to play without your conscious control, like a dream for

a good example. that's how your fractal view would work. and in that sense

it would all be fair. So, the view that it cheapens life is actually wrong.

the fractal view would be the moment of truth, the moment where you sink or

swim, based on your life-long tendencies. Yes, I think so. Avram

 

>

> Regards to all

>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/3/02 10:55:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

Ammachi writes:

 

 

> This is correct, I feel. The fact that you can take the Lord's name or think

> about Him at the last moment speaks of only one thing - intense sadhana

> done

> over many lifetimes that gives the jiva the last stretch of self-control to

> do

> what he wanted, especially as the prana is fast ebbing away from the

> body-cage.

 

::No. What I would say is that in the "last stretch" it is not gunna be

"self-control" but your whole life's momentum, up or down. I think it is

incorrect to think of it as an act of self-control, as if you could do that.

Reminds me of Bill Cosby's plan should the plane he is on go down. He said

just before it hits the ground he would "jump" and thus not be crushed. I

think that's a good metaphor for thinking that we can make a desperate

attempt in the final moment. Avram

 

>

>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/3/02 10:55:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

Ammachi writes:

 

 

>

> My point is if this happens so to speak almost

> spontaneously , in most cases from what I have

> observed why do Great Sages say it is so difficult

> and requaiers severe sadana , chanting of Mantras

> ect...? This is a comment with a question

>

>

 

Some people say "Oh, Shit!" Avram

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

--- sprose1 wrote:

> In a message dated 10/3/02 10:55:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

> Ammachi writes:

>

>

> > This is correct, I feel. The fact that you can take the Lord's name or

> think

> > about Him at the last moment speaks of only one thing - intense sadhana

> > done

> > over many lifetimes that gives the jiva the last stretch of self-control to

>

> > do

> > what he wanted, especially as the prana is fast ebbing away from the

> > body-cage.

>

> ::No. What I would say is that in the "last stretch" it is not gunna be

> "self-control" but your whole life's momentum, up or down. I think it is

> incorrect to think of it as an act of self-control, as if you could do that.

>

> Reminds me of Bill Cosby's plan should the plane he is on go down. He said

> just before it hits the ground he would "jump" and thus not be crushed. I

> think that's a good metaphor for thinking that we can make a desperate

> attempt in the final moment. Avram

>

 

You are right; I may have used an incomplete (not incorrect) description by

using the word self-control. You are right about the momentum too, and I would

like to qualify it.

 

The momentum of your life comes from the lifelong training and God's Grace, and

both together help you regain a modicum of self-control at the point of death

when all life is getting beyond 'your' control. Kind of like training intensely

in math for the GRE tests, and finally putting the training to application

during the actual test. ans where is God's Grace, you would ask? It's in the

fact that you could reach the exam site safely, that your hands are intact to

take the test, that the conditions around the test-taking venue are not

distracting you from your actual purpose, and it's the so many other

assumptions one makes about life and generally takes life (as is) for

granted...... Give me one good reason why all the 'supporting' props during the

final test should what they are, and not otherwise.... I can think of none, all

I can think of is gratitude for the same.

 

When you think about it deeply, you realize that God's Grace is paramount to

any other ingredient for success in anything we do, and totally indispensabe;

even our efforts can be dispensed, not His Grace.

 

I have a more concrete metaphor about God's Grace here. I liken it to a child

desperately trying to climb a wall for a long time (his efforts), and an

interested but detached spectator finally sauntering towards the kid and

lifting him and putting him on the wall (the grace).

 

1. Did the kid's efforts help him? yes, but not completely.

 

2. Would he have got the help from the spectator if he had not been trying so

hard? most definitely not; the spectator would not even have been aware of this

desire in the child.

 

3. Did the spectator help immediately? probably not, as he was interested in

watching the child's activity.

 

4. Then why did he help the kid eventually? Compassion, Love, a strring in the

heart, name it what you want.

 

The 3rd question is important. In my opinion, unlike most gurus, it has been my

experience and observation that our dear Amma helps almost immediately. I

cannot think of any Guru who talks and laughs so much just to put us at ease.

Most of them are so solemn and dignified. Not to say Amma is not. You want to

see the solemn Amma? see Her when She just slips into Devi Bhava, and she

throws flowers on Herslef and on the swamis. Her mood then is awesome!

 

Maybe She does not give hep as a one-time deal to give final absolution, but

help atleast to inspire us enough to "hang around" and work it out under the

safe environment of Her presence.

 

BOTTOMLINE: Seek, and ye shall (read WILL) find.

 

Jai Ma!

manoj.

 

 

 

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Om Namah Shivaya My Brothers and Sisters in this group! I don't know if I am

doing this right, so please bear with me.

I just wanted to share an example of how good habits can carry us, hopefully

to the goal.

I worked as a nurse's aid in a nursing home where an elderly woman in her

80's declined quickly from someone with a hint of dementia to someone almost

completely demented within about a 5 month period of time. One of her habits

in life, though, was to pray The Rosary on a daily basis. She always went to

bed with her Rosary in her hands and she prayed the Rosary out loud

especially at evening time. As her dementia increased, she made little sense

in any context, but the Rosary was clear as a bell. Later, she fell and

suffered a severe head injury, and she would incorporate things we said to

her, into her Rosary, such as "Hail Mary full of 'napkin'...". Then, later

still, the Rosary seemed to falter, but it's the only thing she attempted to

say, until one day she grew silent, several days before she died.

Even someone who was certifiably demented kept up this habit of prayer,

that's how in-grained her habit was!!! And her habit was to pray for all of

us and for herself. What a blessing to witness how powerful this practice is

and can be for all of us.

 

May Mother Bless us All to persevere in our practices.

In Mother's Love, karen

 

 

>sprose1

>Ammachi

>Ammachi

>Re: Digest Number 614

>Thu, 3 Oct 2002 19:00:22 EDT

>

>In a message dated 10/3/02 10:55:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

>Ammachi writes:

>Dear Faint one:

>

> > The lesson that emerges, IMHO, is that trying to target the final

> > moment is not the way to go about it because that would involve

> > focussing on results rather than effort. Effort is all that lies

> > within our control, in Samsara - the world of illusion, of course. It

> > is therefore futile to go through life without making any effort,

> > expecting to turn the final moment to advantage. It is also futile to

> > expect that a life full of effort will result in a 'suitable' final

> > moment; the final moment may be pre-destined but it may not be

> > computable. Actually, come to think of it, that applies to the rest

> > of life as well. Why just apply it to the final moment?

>

>

>::What I would add to your delicate consideration is this. that while

>alive

>you have some control over what you think and feel, but when you are dying

>or

>just dead the mind continues like a train whose engines have stopped but

>which has energy left. I don't think you'll be there hanging around and

>going,"Now, what am I supposed to do as I'm dying? Oh yeah, I should think

>of god, now how about that? God God God.."That's what is tricky about the

>statement that it's best to think of god at that time. Sounds easy. I'll

>just live in a mediocre way and then at death, I'll just think of God real

>hard. Chances are almost 100% that it is not like that. As you grow

>weaker

>and weaker and life slips out, that's when all your prayers and stuff will

>either bear fruit or not. In that sense your whole life is a preparation

>for

>death. Not in the sense that you have rehearsed well and will hopefully

>recall to think "God." Rather, that the train of tendencies you have done

>all

>your life will come to play without your conscious control, like a dream

>for

>a good example. that's how your fractal view would work. and in that

>sense

>it would all be fair. So, the view that it cheapens life is actually

>wrong.

>the fractal view would be the moment of truth, the moment where you sink or

>swim, based on your life-long tendencies. Yes, I think so. Avram

>

> >

> > Regards to all

> >

>

>

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

--- sprose1 wrote:

> In a message dated 10/3/02 10:55:33 AM Pacific

> Daylight Time,

> Ammachi writes:

> Dear Faint one:

>

> > The lesson that emerges, IMHO, is that trying to

> target the final

> > moment is not the way to go about it because that

> would involve

> > focussing on results rather than effort. Effort is

> all that lies

> > within our control, in Samsara - the world of

> illusion, of course. It

> > is therefore futile to go through life without

> making any effort,

> > expecting to turn the final moment to advantage.

> It is also futile to

> > expect that a life full of effort will result in a

> 'suitable' final

> > moment; the final moment may be pre-destined but

> it may not be

> > computable. Actually, come to think of it, that

> applies to the rest

> > of life as well. Why just apply it to the final

> moment?

>

>

> ::What I would add to your delicate consideration is

> this. that while alive

> you have some control over what you think and feel,

> but when you are dying or

> just dead the mind continues like a train whose

> engines have stopped but

> which has energy left. I don't think you'll be

> there hanging around and

> going,"Now, what am I supposed to do as I'm dying?

> Oh yeah, I should think

> of god, now how about that? God God God.."That's

> what is tricky about the

> statement that it's best to think of god at that

> time. Sounds easy. I'll

> just live in a mediocre way and then at death, I'll

> just think of God real

> hard. Chances are almost 100% that it is not like

> that. As you grow weaker

> and weaker and life slips out, that's when all your

> prayers and stuff will

> either bear fruit or not. In that sense your whole

> life is a preparation for

> death. Not in the sense that you have rehearsed well

> and will hopefully

> recall to think "God." Rather, that the train of

> tendencies you have done all

> your life will come to play without your conscious

> control, like a dream for

> a good example. that's how your fractal view would

> work. and in that sense

> it would all be fair. So, the view that it cheapens

> life is actually wrong.

> the fractal view would be the moment of truth, the

> moment where you sink or

> swim, based on your life-long tendencies. Yes, I

> think so. Avram

>

> >

> > Regards to all

> >

> Weather One thinks so, or not signifies what ?

to once spiritual development if there is such state.

The more You think and think You know, the less You

know , so best is to live life day to day following

Your bliss , and when the final moments arrive then

maybe One will know or maybe not , but if You hold on

to Guru's feet , Amma certainly will be the guide

through the forest . These are the mysterious

winds of Love that conquer the winds of Karma , there

is no logic in it , however ?....... and it can go on

and on and on and on and on and on

 

 

regards, Joanna S

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

--- joanna pollner <joannapollner wrote:

> --- sprose1 wrote:

> > In a message dated 10/3/02 10:55:33 AM Pacific

> > Daylight Time,

> > Ammachi writes:

> > Dear Faint one:

> >

> > > The lesson that emerges, IMHO, is that trying to

> > target the final

> > > moment is not the way to go about it because

> that

> > would involve

> > > focussing on results rather than effort. Effort

> is

> > all that lies

> > > within our control, in Samsara - the world of

> > illusion, of course. It

> > > is therefore futile to go through life without

> > making any effort,

> > > expecting to turn the final moment to advantage.

> > It is also futile to

> > > expect that a life full of effort will result in

> a

> > 'suitable' final

> > > moment; the final moment may be pre-destined but

> > it may not be

> > > computable. Actually, come to think of it, that

> > applies to the rest

> > > of life as well. Why just apply it to the final

> > moment?

> >

> >

> > ::What I would add to your delicate consideration

> is

> > this. that while alive

> > you have some control over what you think and

> feel,

> > but when you are dying or

> > just dead the mind continues like a train whose

> > engines have stopped but

> > which has energy left. I don't think you'll be

> > there hanging around and

> > going,"Now, what am I supposed to do as I'm dying?

>

> > Oh yeah, I should think

> > of god, now how about that? God God God.."That's

> > what is tricky about the

> > statement that it's best to think of god at that

> > time. Sounds easy. I'll

> > just live in a mediocre way and then at death,

> I'll

> > just think of God real

> > hard. Chances are almost 100% that it is not like

> > that. As you grow weaker

> > and weaker and life slips out, that's when all

> your

> > prayers and stuff will

> > either bear fruit or not. In that sense your whole

> > life is a preparation for

> > death. Not in the sense that you have rehearsed

> well

> > and will hopefully

> > recall to think "God." Rather, that the train of

> > tendencies you have done all

> > your life will come to play without your conscious

> > control, like a dream for

> > a good example. that's how your fractal view

> would

> > work. and in that sense

> > it would all be fair. So, the view that it

> cheapens

> > life is actually wrong.

> > the fractal view would be the moment of truth, the

> > moment where you sink or

> > swim, based on your life-long tendencies. Yes, I

> > think so. Avram

> >

> > >

> > > Regards to all

> > >

> > Weather One thinks so, or not signifies what ?

> to once spiritual development if there is such

> state.

> The more You think and think You know, the less You

> know , so best is to live life day to day following

> Your bliss , and when the final moments arrive then

> maybe One will know or maybe not , but if You hold

> on

> to Guru's feet , Amma certainly will be the guide

> through the forest . These are the mysterious

> winds of Love that conquer the winds of Karma ,

> there

> is no logic in it , however ?....... and it can go

> on

> and on and on and on and on and on

>

>

> regards, Joanna S

> >

> > Final note ,

 

Seeing Amma what does it mean ? an outside

source for the ultimate Bliss does it mean happy,

sad or maybe just maybe neither ? to think outside

of the Box can be a question in itself and to think

within is just the same , so ultimately there is

no difference , the illusion is just a temporary

guide even Amma's body is illusion . Amma underlines

of Her presence within our hearts , that a very simple

answer, if She is in our hearts , certainly she does

not mean Her body resides in the heart but something

more , She is everywhere always , Spirit has

multiple eyes , just like in beautiful legends

of Murugan Peackock symbolising the eye is the all

knowing and seeing , Amma is just like that, this is

Bliss as Is.

 

regards, J.S

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > removed]

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

> New DSL Internet Access from SBC &

> http://sbc.

>

 

 

 

 

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