Guest guest Posted October 5, 2002 Report Share Posted October 5, 2002 In a message dated 10/5/02 1:13:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Ammachi writes: > Is this not what Amma is doing for us? Holding > our projection of our own gold until we can take > it back ourselves? > > Johnson says that the truth about Christ (and Amma, > I add) is that he was both fully human and fully > divine, and to give one aspect more weight than > the other is, in the truest sense, to fall into > heresy. So yes, Avram, I'm with you. Our > humaness is very important, too. As Johnson > says, the two worlds are in reality one. > > > Dear Jyotsna: Two things. There is definitely an energetic/shaktic aspect to Amma, so the concept that She is holding as projection is incorrect. It would only hold if She was radiating our own energy/shakti, but no one argues that. It is outside force, not just ours, so I disagree with Johnson. Second. The idea of "avatar" is not the same as "incarnation." The avatar is only appearing to be human, but is in reality beyond human. The Jesus phenomenon holds that he was both fully human and fully divine, which of course is a contradiction, which no one can understand at all. But, an avatar is not said to be this contradiction; rather they are God manifesting as human, but not human. Now, the question would be to say, "What is it to be human?" Ahhhh! Avram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 5, 2002 Report Share Posted October 5, 2002 In a message dated 10/5/02 1:13:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Ammachi writes: > > Remember, "Thou Art That", and if you can wake up to this noble and > virtuous realization, I say go foward and never look back. > > Lisa > > Thanks, Lisa. To be fair to the proponent of this view, I think one can look at many self-proclaimed Gurus, who certainly did fall prey to the egoic seizure of the divine realities which they experienced. There is a real danger of going astray AFTER having elements of Realization. I doin't need to name them here. so, in a way we must be on guard against misusing our Insights, against their intrinsic purity. In that sense it is a fair criticism. But, to say that the very desire to have Realization while alive is itself egoism is incorrect. That would require that we hope not to have realization our whole life until we die, so as not to be egoic. I say that if the ego hasn't been reduced while alive, it's hard to believe that it will do so as we are dying, or after we have died(to this world). Yet, some of Amma's senior disciples have indeed said that Amma tends to give Realization at time of death. Perhaps it is indeed for the reason we have seen here, that we just might not be pure enough to not get big-headed. In that case, though, if we are not truly ready, then why would we qualify for realization, as opposed to someone who is indeed pure enough to handle realization in life? As someone said (I forget who), we are like 25 watt bulbs. Even though Amma is like the sun, are WE able to run that kind of voltage, in this metaphor? That's why I think even the Avatar cannot GIVE realization.Why? Because we would burn up and be unable to stabilize in it. We would even hate it. So, isn't AMma limited, in the sens4e that She cannot Give what we cannot take. Does She really have the power to enlighten us? I recall speaking to Sw. paramatmananda, and he said that Amma could do anything She damn well pleases, including this. Yet, I don't believe him. For the rationale I have said, that even God cannot make a 25 watt bulb shine like a 1,000 watt bulb. Are we ready to be saints? Do we have the maturity, the discrimination, the surrender, or do we expect to ride some sort of wave of bliss, and it all should happen by itself? Yet, it is a mystery....after all...Avram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 5, 2002 Report Share Posted October 5, 2002 In a message dated 10/5/02 1:13:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Ammachi writes: > Finally, Avram, what is grok? I can figure it out from the context, but I > would > like to know accurately. I do not have a dictionary, and Microsoft Word > 'reds' > it out! > > Jai Ma! > manoj. > Dear Manoj: OK. Grok is a '60's term, which means to really get something, not just to think about it, but to nail it, so to speak. It is used in the sense of receiving, never for expressing. You don't say that a musician really grokked last night. You might say that he grokked Miles Davis and had a lot of mojo. No one uses that word anymore either. It's out of fashion. He got Mojo, we used to say. Do you grok? Avram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 5, 2002 Report Share Posted October 5, 2002 Manoj -- <Grok> is a term used in the novel "Stranger In A Strange Land" by Robert A. Heinlein. It was used by the story's hero, Valentine Michael Smith, an Earthman who was raised by very alien Martians, to express the (Martian's) idea that one totally understands the innermost meanings of a concept. <Now> do you grok? :-) -- Len/ Kalipadma On Sat, 5 Oct 2002 19:28:53 EDT sprose1 writes: > In a message dated 10/5/02 1:13:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > Manoj writes: > > > Finally, Avram, what is grok? > > > > Dear Manoj: > > OK. Grok is a '60's term, which means to really get something, not > just to > think about it, but to nail it, so to speak. It is used in the sense > of > receiving, never for expressing. You don't say that a musician > really > grokked last night. You might say that he grokked Miles Davis and > had a lot > of mojo. No one uses that word anymore either. It's out of > fashion. He got Mojo, we used to say. Do you grok? Avram > ______________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 5, 2002 Report Share Posted October 5, 2002 --- sprose1 wrote: > In a message dated 10/5/02 1:13:28 PM Pacific > Daylight Time, > Ammachi wri > > > > > > > Does She really have the power to enlighten us? I > recall speaking to Sw. > paramatmananda, and he said that Amma could do > anything She damn well > pleases, including this. Yet, I don't believe him. Well, I'd wonder about this too, but I actually have a friend who asked for and was given the state of samadhi by Amma. I don't think he was quite ready for it because he then asked her to take it back, which She did, laughing all the while:-). In Amma, Jyotsna > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 5, 2002 Report Share Posted October 5, 2002 Thanks for your explanations, Avram and Ken. So, this term was used in the 60's! that's old - I was not even born then! Do I grok? Yes, I do grok, or in a being sense, am a grokker! nothing else satisfies me more than to know anything I do, inside-out. Yes, I like to see the guts, the innards, of anything I see, besides the outer appearance.... crack a problem, go deep inside the problem, and sit on top of the problem. manoj. Black Lotus L Rosenberg wrote:Manoj -- <Grok> is a term used in the novel "Stranger In A Strange Land" by Robert A. Heinlein. It was used by the story's hero, Valentine Michael Smith, an Earthman who was raised by very alien Martians, to express the (Martian's) idea that one totally understands the innermost meanings of a concept. <Now> do you grok? :-) -- Len/ Kalipadma On Sat, 5 Oct 2002 19:28:53 EDT sprose1 writes: > In a message dated 10/5/02 1:13:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > Manoj writes: > > > Finally, Avram, what is grok? > > > > Dear Manoj: > > OK. Grok is a '60's term, which means to really get something, not > just to > think about it, but to nail it, so to speak. It is used in the sense > of > receiving, never for expressing. You don't say that a musician > really > grokked last night. You might say that he grokked Miles Davis and > had a lot > of mojo. No one uses that word anymore either. It's out of > fashion. He got Mojo, we used to say. Do you grok? Avram Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2002 Report Share Posted October 6, 2002 Jyotsna: Can you tell me more about this incident? It's very intriguing. Shan Ambika Eugene, OR satsang. - Ellen Lamb <jyotsna2 <Ammachi> Sunday, October 06, 2002 1:04 AM Re: Digest Number 616 > > --- sprose1 wrote: > > In a message dated 10/5/02 1:13:28 PM Pacific > > Daylight Time, > > Ammachi wri > > > > > > > > > > > > Does She really have the power to enlighten us? I > > recall speaking to Sw. > > paramatmananda, and he said that Amma could do > > anything She damn well > > pleases, including this. Yet, I don't believe him. > > Well, I'd wonder about this too, but I actually > have a friend who asked for and was given the state > of samadhi by Amma. I don't think he was quite > ready for it because he then asked her to take it > back, which She did, laughing all the while:-). > > In Amma, > Jyotsna > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed] > > > > > > > > > Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More > http://faith. > > > Aum Amriteswarayai Namaha! > > Ammachi > > > Your use of is subject to > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2002 Report Share Posted October 6, 2002 Dear Shan, Well, I want to be careful because it's really his story to tell. He has written a book which may be (I hope so) out in November. The working title has been "Amma and Me" and at least at one time the ashram had agreed to publish it. So rather than spoil the fun of reading this and other delightful stories in the book, I'll just say that it's a really interesting story. When he went to Amma with a note asking Her to take it back, she didn't even look at the note, just rapped him on the head with Her knuckles (while laughing) and the state disappeared. Pretty cool, huh? The author is my good buddy, Manoharan Chace. I may be biased, but I really like the book. In Amma's love, Jyotsna --- Shan Ambika <yogastudioeugene wrote: > Jyotsna: Can you tell me more about this incident? > It's very intriguing. > > Shan Ambika > Eugene, OR satsang. > > - > Ellen Lamb <jyotsna2 > <Ammachi> > Sunday, October 06, 2002 1:04 AM > Re: Digest Number 616 > > > > > > --- sprose1 wrote: > > > In a message dated 10/5/02 1:13:28 PM Pacific > > > Daylight Time, > > > Ammachi wri > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does She really have the power to enlighten us? > I > > > recall speaking to Sw. > > > paramatmananda, and he said that Amma could do > > > anything She damn well > > > pleases, including this. Yet, I don't believe > him. > > > > Well, I'd wonder about this too, but I actually > > have a friend who asked for and was given the > state > > of samadhi by Amma. I don't think he was quite > > ready for it because he then asked her to take it > > back, which She did, laughing all the while:-). > > > > In Amma, > > Jyotsna > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More > > http://faith. > > > > > > Aum Amriteswarayai Namaha! > > > > Ammachi > > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > > > > > > Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2002 Report Share Posted October 6, 2002 Ammachi, sprose1@a... wrote: > In a message dated 10/5/02 1:13:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > Ammachi writes: Yet, some of > Amma's senior disciples have indeed said that Amma tends to give Realization > at time of death. This is an interesting and curious thing that I would like to hear more about some time. Perhaps it is indeed for the reason we have seen here, > that we just might not be pure enough to not get big-headed. In that case, > though, if we are not truly ready, then why would we qualify for realization, > as opposed to someone who is indeed pure enough to handle realization in > life? > > As someone said (I forget who), we are like 25 watt bulbs. Even though Amma > is like the sun, are WE able to run that kind of voltage, in this metaphor? > That's why I think even the Avatar cannot GIVE realization.Why? Because we > would burn up and be unable to stabilize in it. We would even hate it. This is why intense sadhana is required and, in fact, the whole yogic process is an evolution. Even though some here don't like this word, it is true, and even Sw. Amritaswarupananda has spoken of the process of spiritual evolution. In fact, I have heard stories (re:my first guru, for example) where sadhaks asked the guru for a certain state, and when he gave them a little taste of it, they exclaimed, "Please, stop! It's too much." So the sadhak must be able to hold the experience. As I am starting to re-read "Autobiography of a Yogi" after many, many years, this subject is also addressed in a similar way. The body and mind must become very pure and strong to be able to hold onto and provide the Divine experience. That is why, i think in some ways the guru can point the way (and in a very strong and powerful way...with tons and tons of grace), but still it is up to us to walk the path. Perhaps this isn't what everyone wants to hear, but I believe so. And I do believe your desire for self-realization will take you there...perhaps if not in this life, then in the next. Lisa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2002 Report Share Posted October 10, 2002 Namah Shivaya Yes , Intense sadhana may be required in some cases but there are plenty of cases when Grace descends in a single sweep and removes obstacles to realization .. after all, it is Amma who does the sadhana too, in a sense.. So hile i agree that sadhana is required, if Amma so wills She can grant liberation to a person regardless of his previous 'capacity'... Remember what SRi Ramakrishna said : If a rom has been dark and closed for a 100 years, if you enter it and light a match the darkness vanishes instantly- it doesnt take a 100 years to vanish. Similarly while it is true that we may been asleep in maya for ages, if Amma wills, then the darkness can vanish in an instant. After all we ARE THAT and our imperfections and incapacity is as much maya as anything else .. we ARE the Self. We are not essentrially bound but we are essentially free. We are one with God already .. in fact we are God playing hide and seek with Himself.. We are divine in essence, our nature is Love and Peace- in short we are one with Amma already- but we have forgotten this. Amma can wake us up at any time, and regardless of how long we have deamt or how dark our dream has been - when we wake up the dream vanishes instantly . Similarly the Perfect Guru, Amma in our case, can if She so wills , remove the blindfold in an instant. But to whom She chooses to reveal it is up to Her - and our sadhana i guess. This is where our 'sadhana' come in- we can struggle and pray and ceaselessly try to cleanse ourselves- then grace descends and we are lifted up.. I guess the factor is surrender . When even sadhana is surrendered , when we simply give up everything at Her feet , She will pick us up. Theefore Amma can grant liberation to many at the time of death or before- how do we know what their iner state of surrender is? bala --- lbrachlin <lalita120 wrote: > Ammachi, sprose1@a... wrote: > > In a message dated 10/5/02 1:13:28 PM Pacific > Daylight Time, > > Ammachi writes: > > Yet, > some of > > Amma's senior disciples have indeed said that Amma > tends to give > Realization > > at time of death. > > This is an interesting and curious thing that I > would like to hear > more about some time. > > Perhaps it is indeed for the reason we have seen > here, > > that we just might not be pure enough to not get > big-headed. In > that case, > > though, if we are not truly ready, then why would > we qualify for > realization, > > as opposed to someone who is indeed pure enough to > handle > realization in > > life? > > > > As someone said (I forget who), we are like 25 > watt bulbs. Even > though Amma > > is like the sun, are WE able to run that kind of > voltage, in this > metaphor? > > That's why I think even the Avatar cannot GIVE > realization.Why? > Because we > > would burn up and be unable to stabilize in it. We > would even hate > it. > > This is why intense sadhana is required and, in > fact, the whole yogic > process is an evolution. Even though some here don't > like this word, > it is true, and even Sw. Amritaswarupananda has > spoken of the process > of spiritual evolution. In fact, I have heard > stories (re:my first > guru, for example) where sadhaks asked the guru for > a certain state, > and when he gave them a little taste of it, they > exclaimed, "Please, > stop! It's too much." So the sadhak must be able to > hold the > experience. As I am starting to re-read > "Autobiography of a Yogi" > after many, many years, this subject is also > addressed in a similar > way. The body and mind must become very pure and > strong to be able to > hold onto and provide the Divine experience. That is > why, i think in > some ways the guru can point the way (and in a very > strong and > powerful way...with tons and tons of grace), but > still it is up to us > to walk the path. Perhaps this isn't what everyone > wants to hear, but > I believe so. And I do believe your desire for > self-realization will > take you there...perhaps if not in this life, then > in the next. > > Lisa > > Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2002 Report Share Posted October 10, 2002 Bala, Yes, what you say is true. I do believe surrender is the greatest factor. To really get a feeling of the path of self-surrender, I suggest reading the memoirs of Swami Ramdas. He has written a trilogy that is available through Blue Dove Press. It is all so mysterious. Yet, I would say that intense sadhana may be required in most cases as opposed to "some." It is hard to understand why Amma would bestow realization or liberation on someone who hasn't spent as much time around her or doing as much sadhana as some of her beloved swamis who work ceaselessly, yet only Amma knows our inner being. It could be very baffling to some. I would think they should be deserving and pure souls. Only Amma knows our past and present. It only takes a moment to turn a light switch on and to light up a room, yet, one needs to open the door to the room and enter. It only takes a moment for a ripe apple to fall off the tree, yet the apple needed to take in the warm sun rays for some time before it became ripe. I think it's like that with sadhana, too. We can put forth so much effort. It may seem never-ending. We may wonder why nothing is happening. Then one day, poof! A huge descent of grace! Everything suddenly becomes effortless. We never no when this descent of grace will happen. It is so surprising and so sudden. Thanks Bala for your important message. Lisa Ammachi, balakrishnan Shankar <balakrishnan_sh> wrote: > Namah Shivaya > > Yes , Intense sadhana may be required in some cases > but there are plenty of cases when Grace descends in a > single sweep and removes obstacles to realization .. > > after all, it is Amma who does the sadhana too, in a > sense.. > > So hile i agree that sadhana is required, if Amma so > wills She can grant liberation to a person regardless > of his previous 'capacity'... Remember what SRi > Ramakrishna said : If a rom has been dark and closed > for a 100 years, if you enter it and light a match the > darkness vanishes instantly- it doesnt take a 100 > years to vanish. > > Similarly while it is true that we may been asleep in > maya for ages, if Amma wills, then the darkness can > vanish in an instant. After all we ARE THAT and our > imperfections and incapacity is as much maya as > anything else .. we ARE the Self. We are not > essentrially bound but we are essentially free. > > We are one with God already .. in fact we are God > playing hide and seek with Himself.. We are divine in > essence, our nature is Love and Peace- in short we are > one with Amma already- but we have forgotten this. > Amma can wake us up at any time, and regardless of how > long we have deamt or how dark our dream has been - > when we wake up the dream vanishes instantly . > > Similarly the Perfect Guru, Amma in our case, can if > She so wills , remove the blindfold in an instant. > > But to whom She chooses to reveal it is up to Her - > and our sadhana i guess. This is where our 'sadhana' > come in- we can struggle and pray and ceaselessly try > to cleanse ourselves- then grace descends and we are > lifted up.. > > I guess the factor is surrender . When even sadhana > is surrendered , when we simply give up everything at > Her feet , She will pick us up. Theefore Amma can > grant liberation to many at the time of death or > before- how do we know what their iner state of > surrender is? > > bala > --- lbrachlin <lalita120@h...> wrote: > > Ammachi, sprose1@a... wrote: > > > In a message dated 10/5/02 1:13:28 PM Pacific > > Daylight Time, > > > Ammachi writes: > > > > Yet, > > some of > > > Amma's senior disciples have indeed said that Amma > > tends to give > > Realization > > > at time of death. > > > > This is an interesting and curious thing that I > > would like to hear > > more about some time. > > > > Perhaps it is indeed for the reason we have seen > > here, > > > that we just might not be pure enough to not get > > big-headed. In > > that case, > > > though, if we are not truly ready, then why would > > we qualify for > > realization, > > > as opposed to someone who is indeed pure enough to > > handle > > realization in > > > life? > > > > > > As someone said (I forget who), we are like 25 > > watt bulbs. Even > > though Amma > > > is like the sun, are WE able to run that kind of > > voltage, in this > > metaphor? > > > That's why I think even the Avatar cannot GIVE > > realization.Why? > > Because we > > > would burn up and be unable to stabilize in it. We > > would even hate > > it. > > > > This is why intense sadhana is required and, in > > fact, the whole yogic > > process is an evolution. Even though some here don't > > like this word, > > it is true, and even Sw. Amritaswarupananda has > > spoken of the process > > of spiritual evolution. In fact, I have heard > > stories (re:my first > > guru, for example) where sadhaks asked the guru for > > a certain state, > > and when he gave them a little taste of it, they > > exclaimed, "Please, > > stop! It's too much." So the sadhak must be able to > > hold the > > experience. As I am starting to re-read > > "Autobiography of a Yogi" > > after many, many years, this subject is also > > addressed in a similar > > way. The body and mind must become very pure and > > strong to be able to > > hold onto and provide the Divine experience. That is > > why, i think in > > some ways the guru can point the way (and in a very > > strong and > > powerful way...with tons and tons of grace), but > > still it is up to us > > to walk the path. Perhaps this isn't what everyone > > wants to hear, but > > I believe so. And I do believe your desire for > > self-realization will > > take you there...perhaps if not in this life, then > > in the next. > > > > Lisa > > > > > > > > > Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More > http://faith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2002 Report Share Posted October 11, 2002 Dear all, For those who are interested, Manoharan tells me his book is now due to be published (by the ashram) before the 2003 Summer Tour. In Amma, Jyotsna --- Ellen Lamb <jyotsna2 wrote: > Dear Shan, > > Well, I want to be careful because it's really > his story to tell. He has written a book which > may be (I hope so) out in November. The working > title has been "Amma and Me" and at least at one > time the ashram had agreed to publish it. So > rather than spoil the fun of reading this > and other delightful stories in the book, I'll > just say that it's a really interesting story. > When he went to Amma with a note asking Her to > take it back, she didn't even look at the note, > just rapped him on the head with Her knuckles > (while laughing) and the state disappeared. > Pretty cool, huh? The author is my good buddy, > Manoharan Chace. I may be biased, but I really > like the book. > > In Amma's love, > Jyotsna > > > --- Shan Ambika <yogastudioeugene wrote: > > Jyotsna: Can you tell me more about this > incident? > > It's very intriguing. > > > > Shan Ambika > > Eugene, OR satsang. > > > > - > > Ellen Lamb <jyotsna2 > > <Ammachi> > > Sunday, October 06, 2002 1:04 AM > > Re: Digest Number 616 > > > > > > > > > > --- sprose1 wrote: > > > > In a message dated 10/5/02 1:13:28 PM Pacific > > > > Daylight Time, > > > > Ammachi wri > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does She really have the power to enlighten > us? > > I > > > > recall speaking to Sw. > > > > paramatmananda, and he said that Amma could do > > > > anything She damn well > > > > pleases, including this. Yet, I don't believe > > him. > > > > > > Well, I'd wonder about this too, but I actually > > > have a friend who asked for and was given the > > state > > > of samadhi by Amma. I don't think he was quite > > > ready for it because he then asked her to take > it > > > back, which She did, laughing all the while:-). > > > > > > In Amma, > > > Jyotsna > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > > > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & > More > > > http://faith. > > > > > > > > > Aum Amriteswarayai Namaha! > > > To from this group, send an email > to: > > > Ammachi > > > > > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More > http://faith. > Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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