Digest Number 617

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/6/02 2:58:37 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

Ammachi writes:

 

 

> This is why intense sadhana is required and, in fact, the whole yogic

> process is an evolution. Even though some here don't like this word,

> it is true, and even Sw. Amritaswarupananda has spoken of the process

> of spiritual evolution. In fact, I have heard stories (re:my first

> guru, for example) where sadhaks asked the guru for a certain state,

> and when he gave them a little taste of it, they exclaimed, "Please,

> stop! It's too much." So the sadhak must be able to hold the

> experience. As I am starting to re-read "Autobiography of a Yogi"

> after many, many years, this subject is also addressed in a similar

> way. The body and mind must become very pure and strong to be able to

> hold onto and provide the Divine experience. That is why, i think in

> some ways the guru can point the way (and in a very strong and

> powerful way...with tons and tons of grace), but still it is up to us

> to walk the path. Perhaps this isn't what everyone wants to hear, but

> I believe so. And I do believe your desire for self-realization will

> take you there...perhaps if not in this life, then in the next.

>

> Lisa

>

>

 

So, it seems to all of us, that this granting of liberation at time of death

is sounding rather dubious, for the reason of spiritual evolution and that a

tiny vessel cannot carry an ocean. It seems too much to ask as we are dying

that we should perform masterful flips which have escaped us our entire life.

The only part that doesn't fit is that Amma is said to do just this. the

only way I see that this can work is that She is preparing devotees for this

now. Even so, I still have doubt about the failure to realize whilst alive,

because, as I have argued, it seems that, to be complete, one has to GROK

(there's that word, Manoj) it and that this requires being alive with time to

adjust. Recall, the post above, where someone got a taste of samadhi and

begged Amma for it to stop. What clearer case can be made that we have to be

ready? and wouldn't it seem incomplete if said devotee did not have occasion

to grow into it, so to speak? And, of course, wouldn't it be a pity if one

could have lived it, rather than died at that moment? A further question,

touched off by this last question, is, what could the state of liberation be,

after the death experience? What would one be; can anyone imagine a state

that would not grow boring after some time? Even bliss, bliss, bliss, might

show signs of wear. would we be pure consciousness? would we have a sense of

I, or me? If not, then in what sense do we exist at all? We all say we want

this state, yet hardly anyone actually thinks about what it could possibly

be? If it was just blissful, why did that devotee ask for it to be

withdrawn? Why did he prefer his egoic state, when given the option? There

is a certain joy of being an I, the very thing we say we want to get rid of

like the plague. Yet, do we realize that we love being an I, and don't want

to be without it, though we say we do. The I has its problems, but we don't

want to become I-less. Crazy isn't it? We say one thing, and do another. Do

we really want what we say, have we even considered what it might be? We

fantasize about everything else, yet we have little imagination about

liberation. Well, enough for now. Avram

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dears, this is the only portion of the thread I really grokked LOL and I just

had to jump in w/ my $.02, sorry if I'm reiterating someone else.

 

I think that an Avatar or Devatas can bestow enlightenment/realization, but

it is a matter of circumstance. I agree that our 'ability' with 'reality'

does depend on our spiritual 'evolution' and I think that Amma can gage where

we are on that scale. Therefore she may bestow on one, but not another, for

each's own sake. Look at the Bhagavad Gita, Sri Krsna's revels His cosmic

form to Arjuna, who couldn't take it, Arjuna begged Krsna to return to His

comprehensible human form. Obviously Krsna bestowed the visage, but then

retracted it as Arjuna wasn't ready to accept it.

 

Also, there are cases of people having "bad" experiences with some Kundalini

yoga practices, probably because their energies are awakened prematurely, or

improperly, causing psychic/emotional disturbance. I wouldn't be surprised if

some psychosis are really a condition of spiritual awakening before a person

can manage that power (and I really wonder if there aren't yogic practices to

remedy certain psychosis).

 

So I think Amma could give it, but most of us - She knows who - aren't ready.

 

 

In a message dated 10/6/02 5:58:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

Ammachi writes:

 

< As someone said (I forget who), we are like 25 watt bulbs. Even

though Amma

> is like the sun, are WE able to run that kind of voltage, in this

metaphor?

> That's why I think even the Avatar cannot GIVE realization.Why?

Because we

> would burn up and be unable to stabilize in it. We would even hate

it.

 

This is why intense sadhana is required and, in fact, the whole yogic

process is an evolution. Even though some here don't like this word,

it is true, and even Sw. Amritaswarupananda has spoken of the process

of spiritual evolution. In fact, I have heard stories (re:my first

guru, for example) where sadhaks asked the guru for a certain state,

and when he gave them a little taste of it, they exclaimed, "Please,

stop! It's too much." So the sadhak must be able to hold the

experience. As I am starting to re-read "Autobiography of a Yogi"

after many, many years, this subject is also addressed in a similar

way. The body and mind must become very pure and strong to be able to

hold onto and provide the Divine experience. That is why, i think in

some ways the guru can point the way (and in a very strong and

powerful way...with tons and tons of grace), but still it is up to us

to walk the path. Perhaps this isn't what everyone wants to hear, but

I believe so. And I do believe your desire for self-realization will

take you there...perhaps if not in this life, then in the next.

 

Lisa >>