Guest guest Posted November 4, 2002 Report Share Posted November 4, 2002 On Mon, 04 Nov 2002 09:58:29 -0600 Rick Archer <rick writes: > > I¹m not qualified to argue the scientific details of this, but I¹ve often > read analyses of our teeth and digestive systems which argue that we > most closely resemble the great apes, who eat fruit and are not > carnivores. The great apes occasionally eat grubs and other insects. > > Maharishi¹s quote on > this: ³If you have to eat someone, eat lesser evolved life.² That > gives you > plenty of latitude to do the best you can in your circumstances. > I was bothered by a quote attributed to the Dalai Lama. He suggested it was better karma to kill a single whale and feed twenty people with it, than to feed a single person with a stew of twenty shrimps. I had the response that shrimps are "lesser evolved life," while eating a whale was like eating another person... Lord Rama, as a Kshatriya, was allowed to eat meat. But notice that it was while Rama was hunting a deer (actually a disguised <rakshasa>), that Ravana was able to abduct Sita. -- Len/ Kalipadma ______________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2002 Report Share Posted November 4, 2002 Vegetarianism lends itself to tropical climates. In Tibet, the Tibetans (although Buddhist) eat meat -- cold weather can be better offset with ingestion of occasional animal fats. Tibetan restaurants in Noo Yawk attract a (Western) Buddhist crowd. They learned to develop veggie alternatives for their non-Tibetan clientele. As a Shakta, I mentally offer meat meals to Durga or Kali before consuming them. My own body forbids me from eating beef -- it sets off a gout attack! -- Len/ Kalipadma On Mon, 04 Nov 2002 17:10:06 -0000 "John Stanley" <johnny_tesla writes: > Ammachi, Rick Archer <rick@s...> wrote: > > A lot of people don¹t have the opportunity or the luxury to learn > > and practice spiritual disciplines either. If you can be a > > vegetarian, I¹d say it¹s a blessing. But not all can. An > > Eskimo, even if he had the food shipped in, would probably > > die on that diet in that climate. > > While vegetarianism is a common theme running through the spiritual > traditions of the Indian subcontinent, it is by no means a universal > theme among all spiritual traditions. Are you saying that you > consider the far northern indigenous peoples less spiritual because > they eat meat? Is judging a person's spirituality by his diet a > valid spiritual gauge or just one particular brand of spiritual > chauvinism? > ______________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2002 Report Share Posted November 4, 2002 > What I find odd is the notion that humans are somehow more in tune > with God/Creator/Nature on a vegetarian diet when the design of human > physiology is so clearly that of an omnivore. > I¹m not qualified to argue the scientific details of this, but I¹ve often read analyses of our teeth and digestive systems which argue that we most closely resemble the great apes, who eat fruit and are not carnivores. > > As for fruitarianism, how many places on Earth naturally have a > plentiful year-round supply of fruit? Nature's own seasonal cycles > should tell us that a year round fruitarian diet is not natural. > A lot of people don¹t have the opportunity or the luxury to learn and practice spiritual disciplines either. If you can be a vegetarian, I¹d say it¹s a blessing. But not all can. An Eskimo, even if he had the food shipped in, would probably die on that diet in that climate. Maharishi¹s quote on this: ³If you have to eat someone, eat lesser evolved life.² That gives you plenty of latitude to do the best you can in your circumstances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2002 Report Share Posted November 4, 2002 In a message dated 11/4/2002 12:01:42 PM Pacific Standard Time, jyotsna2 writes: > <<. After spending > 27 years as a vegetarian, I developed a number of > health problems. I finally saw a very talented > healer who essentially told me that vegetarianism > was killing me. I used to consider myself morally > superior for being a vegetarian, so I know how > most vegetarians think. I still "like" vegetarian > food better than non-vegetarian, but when I follow > my psychic healer's high protein diet, I feel much > better.>> I'm puzzled why you think a veggie diet can't be high in protein. Paneer, yogurt, and if you eat eggs, can all supply very high quality animal protein. It would seem that some other issue was debilitating your health rather than a lack of protein per se. Again, this may be akin to the woman I described in my last post who couldn't- for genetic reasons- extract certain necessary nutrients from a veggie diet. Some veggies have trouble with low blood sugar and need to learn to keep it more stable with better deitary planning. Ethics: Well, I think the major impetus for most of us going veggie was ethical concerns. However, in a case where your health is at stake, it's not really an issue, and in fact seems unethical to insist someone be veggie. I mean, I choose not to eat meat because I don't want to unnecessarily kill an animal, yet at the same time I'd probably rather euthanize an animal than make it suffer a horribly protracted death. I think one area where both veggies and omnivores can agree about ethics is that animals used for food (or byproducts like milk and eggs) should be raised free-range and preferably organically. The cruelty of intensive confinement is beyond debate, and I even saw some conservative Republicans on TV saying they supported legislation on a state ballot that would ban intense confinement of pregnant sows. Environmental ethics is still a very important area for religious ethicists, and vegetarianism is still very much a part of the debate. ==-- Jai Ma===- Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2002 Report Share Posted November 4, 2002 Ammachi, Rick Archer <rick@s...> wrote: > > What I find odd is the notion that humans are somehow more in tune > > with God/Creator/Nature on a vegetarian diet when the design of > > human > > physiology is so clearly that of an omnivore. > > > I¹m not qualified to argue the scientific details of this, but > I¹ve often read analyses of our teeth and digestive systems > which argue that we most closely resemble the great apes, who > eat fruit and are not carnivores. Actually, most of the great apes are omniovores. Chimpanzees, which are considered our closest relatives among the apes, will kill and eat other animals, including other mammals. That famous film of chimpanzee tool usage shows a chimp using a stick to pull insects from a mound and then eating them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2002 Report Share Posted November 4, 2002 Ammachi, Rick Archer <rick@s...> wrote: > A lot of people don¹t have the opportunity or the luxury to learn > and practice spiritual disciplines either. If you can be a > vegetarian, I¹d say it¹s a blessing. But not all can. An > Eskimo, even if he had the food shipped in, would probably > die on that diet in that climate. While vegetarianism is a common theme running through the spiritual traditions of the Indian subcontinent, it is by no means a universal theme among all spiritual traditions. Are you saying that you consider the far northern indigenous peoples less spiritual because they eat meat? Is judging a person's spirituality by his diet a valid spiritual gauge or just one particular brand of spiritual chauvinism? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2002 Report Share Posted November 4, 2002 > I appreciate your comments, John. After spending 27 years as a vegetarian, I developed a number of health problems. I finally saw a very talented healer who essentially told me that vegetarianism was killing me. I used to consider myself morally superior for being a vegetarian, so I know how most vegetarians think. I still "like" vegetarian food better than non-vegetarian, but when I follow my psychic healer's high protein diet, I feel much better. As Jesus Christ said, it's not what goeth in at the mouth that defileth, but what cometh out at the mouth." Jai Ma, Jyotsna > While vegetarianism is a common theme running > through the spiritual > traditions of the Indian subcontinent, it is by no > means a universal > theme among all spiritual traditions. Are you saying > that you > consider the far northern indigenous peoples less > spiritual because > they eat meat? Is judging a person's spirituality by > his diet a valid > spiritual gauge or just one particular brand of > spiritual chauvinism? > > > HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2002 Report Share Posted November 4, 2002 > Black Lotus L Rosenberg <kalipadma > I was bothered by a quote attributed to the Dalai Lama. He suggested it > was better karma to kill a single whale and feed twenty people with it, > than to feed a single person with a stew of twenty shrimps. > > I had the response that shrimps are "lesser evolved life," while eating a > whale was like eating another person... I would agree with you on this. What the Dalai Lama is attributed to have said is comparable to saying it's better than to kill a single person than to kill twenty birds. I suppose that at some point the scales would balance, and I certainly love birds and other animals, but I don't agree that every life is of equal value. In a similar vein, Maharishi once said, when asked about the karma of swatting mosquitoes, "The comfort of a human being is more valuable than the life of a bug." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2002 Report Share Posted November 4, 2002 > "John Stanley" <johnny_tesla > > While vegetarianism is a common theme running through the spiritual > traditions of the Indian subcontinent, it is by no means a universal > theme among all spiritual traditions. Are you saying that you > consider the far northern indigenous peoples less spiritual because > they eat meat? Is judging a person's spirituality by his diet a valid > spiritual gauge or just one particular brand of spiritual chauvinism? > Probably the latter. But the Gita says the foods one is attracted to indicate one¹s temperament (tamasic, rajasic, sattwic). Does this mean that tamasic people tend to be born in places where eating tamasic food is necessary? Is being born in favorable circumstances a sign of good karma, more advanced spirituality, both, or neither? If hell exists, are the souls there just as spiritual (from a relative perspective) as those in heaven? There are supposed to be spiritual planets inhabited exclusively by highly evolved souls. And hellish planets. Earth is probably somewhere in the middle. The Gita says that yogis who don¹t achieve liberation are reborn in pure and illustrious families, where, presumably, they may more easily continue their sadhana. Yet Ammachi was born to a dirt-poor family who treated her like a slave. She had to do her sadhana at 11pm when the work was done. My politically incorrect opinion, open as always to revision, is that while there are exceptions to every generality, being born in circumstances which allow one to engage in spiritual pursuits, eat a pure diet, etc., probably indicates an above average degree of spiritual development. We may take advantage of the blessing, or waste the opportunity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2002 Report Share Posted November 5, 2002 In a message dated 11/4/2002 8:38:42 PM Pacific Standard Time, rick writes: > <<My politically incorrect opinion, open as always to revision, is > that while there are exceptions to every generality, being born in > circumstances which allow one to engage in spiritual pursuits, eat a pure > diet, etc., probably indicates an above average degree of spiritual > development. >> Well, yes Rick, but this is a different argument altogether from you're original argument which is that people are physiologically designed to be fruitarians. (here's your exact quote: "but I've often read analyses of our teeth and digestive systems which argue that we most closely resemble the great apes, who eat fruit and are not carnivores".) This idea is scientifically invalid (and a common myth in veggie circles circa the 1970s), but your new argument is more metaphysical and requires certain suppositions of faith to be considered true-- we'll never be able to disprove that, only pose other opposite and equally unprovable religious suppositions. Vegetarianism is part of the continuing evolution of religious environmental ethics. Personally, I consider it one of the blessings in my life and it is a major signpost in my spiritual journey. It was the beginning of my studies in ahimsa, and it remains a day-to-day reminder of my connection and obligations to the animal (and plant) kingdoms. Even many meat-eating traditions admit that we have ethical obligations in the way we treat animals. The Indian traditions like Hinduism and especially Jainism (and some Mahayanists especially Chinese Buddhist) just take this obligation much further, and thus vegetarianism is more common here than elsewhere on the religious map. I think as long as people are contemplating nonviolence to animals and environmental concerns, vegetarianism will be a vital expression of commitment. However, I try to avoid fundamentalism in regard to it, and as I said before, even omnivores (by necessity and choice) can support free-range alternatives which in itself is an expression of ahimsa. === Jai Ahimsa Devi-=- Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2002 Report Share Posted November 6, 2002 Hi Nick, I¹m not qualified to defend my point against the eloquent rebuttals you and John Stanley posted. You may very well be right. My subsequent points are admittedly speculative. Philosophical musing rather than points I would want to defend. In a message dated 11/4/2002 8:38:42 PM Pacific Standard Time, > rick writes: > > >> > <<My politically incorrect opinion, open as always to revision, is >> > that while there are exceptions to every generality, being born in >> > circumstances which allow one to engage in spiritual pursuits, eat a pure >> > diet, etc., probably indicates an above average degree of spiritual >> > development. >> > > Well, yes Rick, but this is a different argument altogether from you're > original argument which is that people are physiologically designed to be > fruitarians. (here's your exact quote: "but I've often > read analyses of our teeth and digestive systems which argue that we most > closely resemble the great apes, who eat fruit and are not carnivores".) > This idea is scientifically invalid (and a common myth in veggie circles > circa the 1970s), but your new argument is more metaphysical and requires > certain suppositions of faith to be considered true-- we'll never be able to > disprove that, only pose other opposite and equally unprovable religious > suppositions. > Vegetarianism is part of the continuing evolution of religious > environmental ethics. Personally, I consider it one of the blessings in my > life and it is a major signpost in my spiritual journey. It was the > beginning of my studies in ahimsa, and it remains a day-to-day reminder of my > connection and obligations to the animal (and plant) kingdoms. Even many > meat-eating traditions admit that we have ethical obligations in the way we > treat animals. The Indian traditions like Hinduism and especially Jainism > (and some Mahayanists especially Chinese Buddhist) just take this obligation > much further, and thus vegetarianism is more common here than elsewhere on > the religious map. I think as long as people are contemplating nonviolence > to animals and environmental concerns, vegetarianism will be a vital > expression of commitment. However, I try to avoid fundamentalism in regard > to it, and as I said before, even omnivores (by necessity and choice) can > support free-range alternatives which in itself is an expression of ahimsa. > === Jai Ahimsa Devi-=- Nick > > > > > > Aum Amriteswarayai Namaha! > > Ammachi > > > Terms of Service > <> . > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2002 Report Share Posted November 6, 2002 In the book the "Holy Science" by Sri Yukestwar an in depth discussion of why human bodies are not intended to eat meat is written. Sri Yuketswarji is the Guru of Paramahansa Yogananada of the SRF line. The book is available via the Self Realization Fellowship. Namah Shivaya. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2002 Report Share Posted November 6, 2002 I think we have talked enough on this subject and should let it go......Let people believe what they FEEL is right ....... Rick Archer <rick wrote:> "John Stanley" <johnny_tesla > > While vegetarianism is a common theme running through the spiritual > traditions of the Indian subcontinent, it is by no means a universal > theme among all spiritual traditions. Are you saying that you > consider the far northern indigenous peoples less spiritual because > they eat meat? Is judging a person's spirituality by his diet a valid > spiritual gauge or just one particular brand of spiritual chauvinism? > Probably the latter. But the Gita says the foods one is attracted to indicate one¹s temperament (tamasic, rajasic, sattwic). Does this mean that tamasic people tend to be born in places where eating tamasic food is necessary? Is being born in favorable circumstances a sign of good karma, more advanced spirituality, both, or neither? If hell exists, are the souls there just as spiritual (from a relative perspective) as those in heaven? There are supposed to be spiritual planets inhabited exclusively by highly evolved souls. And hellish planets. Earth is probably somewhere in the middle. The Gita says that yogis who don¹t achieve liberation are reborn in pure and illustrious families, where, presumably, they may more easily continue their sadhana. Yet Ammachi was born to a dirt-poor family who treated her like a slave. She had to do her sadhana at 11pm when the work was done. My politically incorrect opinion, open as always to revision, is that while there are exceptions to every generality, being born in circumstances which allow one to engage in spiritual pursuits, eat a pure diet, etc., probably indicates an above average degree of spiritual development. We may take advantage of the blessing, or waste the opportunity. Aum Amriteswarayai Namaha! Ammachi Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.