Re:Ammachi said He is the Sun I am the moon

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/27/2002 10:07:28 PM Pacific Standard Time,

ar112326 writes:

 

 

> <<While publicly Ammachi has been more silent..

> privately to devotees she has said "Baba is the sun.. I am the moon">>

>

We have a moral duty to stop the brutal sexual abuse or our fellow man. (If

you don't believe that, go see the film "Monsoon Wedding.") I have friends

who are former followers of Satya Sai Baba and they left when his behavior

was exposed on the internet.

Anyone reading these posts should not take the word of empty, unsigned posts.

Instead, read these following detailed letters (signed by the authors)

before getting involved with Satya Sai Baba. The reports of his abuse go way

back to the 70s and up until the 90s. They are well documented and available

for all to read. The first one listed below is from a long-time follower who

is a psychologist and a former leader in the movement. Together we can stop

this abuse, but only if we stand together in the name of love. =-=- VICTORY

TO THE MOTHER GODDESS WHO PROTECTS AND LOVES HER CHILDREN-===- Nick

P.S. Here's the links:

<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/p_holbach/eng/shirl_e.htm">A letter from an

ex-Sai officer</A>

<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/p_holbach/eng/finds_e.htm">Sai Baba: THE

FINDINGS</A>

<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/p_holbach/eng/said_e.htm">The story of

Said</A>

<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/p_holbach/eng/tal_e.htm">The story of Tal

Brooke</A>

<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/p_holbach/eng/hans_e.htm">The story of

Hans</A>

<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/p_holbach/eng/couple_e.htm">The story of an

ex-devotee</A>

<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/p_holbach/eng/jed_e.htm">The story of

Jed</A>

<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/p_holbach/eng/ugly_e.htm">The account of an

ex-student</A>

<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/p_holbach/eng/dark_e.htm">Sai Baba: the "Bad

Side"</A>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Urban legends, "a friend of a friend of a friend that I know". Many

of the claims of abuse of Sai Baba are made in ignorance and can be

picked apart by proper analysis of such claims, and checking the

facts:

 

1. Critics of SSB are quick to question his display of miracles and

most claims center around this, with the Western (or Eastern Tantric)

fear that some devilish deed is responsble for this powers. Hmmm,

must be sexual since it's such a priviledge to have an interview. I

think you've watched Holy Smoke too many times (nice spoof on Hinduism

and how westerners get caught up in the wrong way, nice display of

Kate Winslet's body too). Most devotees of SSB couldn't care less

about his "miracles" while his critics do.

 

2. Sai Baba's charitable work exceeds or rivals Amma's charitable

works. SSB has placed more of an importance of getting away from

collecting money in the name of God, and much importance on seva,

something which is a big shock for those coming to Amma from SSB.

 

3. FACT: Most devotees of SSB, unless well-off, might get to see

him once in a lifetime because he doesn't tour like other gurus.

 

 

--

http://www.geocities.com/p_holbach/eng/shirl_e.htm

 

Writer investigated, but is not a trained investigator who would know

how to root out fact from fiction, would investigate deeper reasons

for claims rather than "why would they lie" mentality.

 

 

http://www.geocities.com/p_holbach/eng/finds_e.htm THE FINDINGS

More musings than fact. Too much opinion.

 

http://www.geocities.com/p_holbach/eng/said_e.htm The story of Said

 

Much of what this person went through, one goes through with any

change to a new hopeful religion/belief even Christian or Buddhist.

Other parts of his testimony show his own misapplication of SSB's

teachings and his own mental instability, sort of like the book "Go

Ask Alice" actually encouraging drug experimentation rather than

discouraging it (the "diary" showed her own mental instability being

the true cause of problems).

 

http://www.geocities.com/p_holbach/eng/tal_e.htm The story of Tal

Brooke

"who made him gradually re-discover the Bible."

Need I say more?

 

http://www.geocities.com/p_holbach/eng/hans_e.htm The story of Hans

Article starts off with a slant.

 

http://www.geocities.com/p_holbach/eng/couple_e.htm The story of an

ex-devotee

>From a "devotee" who visited once a year, but no mention of seva, or

the joy or benefit of it. Seva as is Amma's is one of SSB's main

tenets. Being in any real sangha of SSB, you'd be hard pressed to

avoid doing some real seva, if you considered yourself a devotee.

Also, the focus on SSB as being Kalki Avatar is a certain "sect" of

SSB devotees, mostly New Agers.

 

http://www.geocities.com/p_holbach/eng/jed_e.htm The story of Jed

"I was a Sai Devotee for about 4 years. In that time I had several

interviews with Sai Baba. On my final trip to Sai Baba, I began to

question his philosophy and powers. "

 

What was questionable about his philosophy? What he teaches,

although multi-religion on the surface, has always been Hinduistic

Sanathana Dharma. Having "several interviews" in such a short time,

means he went with a group that was used to getting interviews,

otherwise unheard of for such a short time.

 

http://www.geocities.com/p_holbach/eng/ugly_e.htm The account of an

ex-student

"Many of these students were made gay ('sodomized' would be an

unrefined word) by Swami, who himself is a gay."

 

Hmm, I'll let this one speak for itself. More miracle-bashing, like

anyone cares.

 

http://www.geocities.com/p_holbach/eng/dark_e.htm Sai Baba: the "Bad

Side"</A>

 

 

This is my only response to such claims.

[Guest guest]

--- SoulQuest7 wrote:

> In a message dated 12/27/2002 10:07:28 PM Pacific

> Standard Time,

> ar112326 writes:

>

> >

>

> Anyone reading these posts should not take the word

> of empty, unsigned posts.

>

Yes, Nick, I agree with you. I have studied

with a person who has access to Amma and who has

asked her many times about the guy in question,

and what she tells me is different than this

unsigned post. "Amma doesn't want to hurt anyone's

feelings," is what I was told. That's all I feel

it is prudent to say here. Let's just all try

to get along:) and not hurt anyone's feelings.

 

This is an Amma list, and I'm on it because I

am interested in Her. Can we talk more about

Amma? I'm sure others beside myself want to

hear more uplifting stories!

 

I'll start with a story. Some of you may have

already read another version of it, but this is

my version:

 

In December of 1996, five of us devotees from

Seattle flew to India to be with Amma. It was

my first trip to India. I had always had a fear

of flying, but decided to push it aside and just

have faith and go. We went from Seattle to

Tokyo, from Tokyo to Singapore and then took an

Air India flight from Singapore to Trivandrum.

It was my first flight on a third world airline,

but I bravely said to myself, "People fly on these

planes every day, and nothing ever happens, so I'm

just not going to worry about it." Also on our

Singapore-Trivandrum flight were two devotees from

Los Angeles.

 

It was supposed to be a four hour flight. We were

two hours out, cruising at 39,000 feet, when suddenly

I heard three long grinding noises down in the belly

of the plane. Just as I (ever the nervous flyer)

was about to mentally assure myself that everything

was fine, there was a sudden

sensation like your face feels when you blow up a

balloon--only this time I was the balloon, as

suddenly all 300 or so of the yellow emergency

masks dropped down from the upper compartments.

Simultaneously the plane began dropping like a

rock! As we all quickly donned our masks, the

plane went into two distinct dives, each

punctuated by the sound of "ooh!" from around the

cabin. It made our stomachs feel the way they do

when the ferris wheel goes down.

 

I thought sure we were going to crash. "Well," I

thought to myself, "I don't think this is going

to hurt!" But there were questions in my mind

(and I learned later in the minds of others) such

as "Will we crash land in the ocean and have to

get into life rafts?"

 

Shortly thereafter we seemed to level off. There

was no word from the crew or message from the captain

at all. One brave soul (I think a television

or radio reporter) got up and started filming us

all sitting there with our masks on. I thought,

"Now there's an optimist!"

 

The crew appeared very shaken up, but were going

around pouring water for us like crazy. My mouth

was very dry, and I was drinking. Then a veteran

of India travel told me, "They're taking that water

out of the tap in back. Don't drink it!" So I

stopped drinking water from the airplane and used

my Changi airport water instead.

 

Finally the head steward came on the P.A. and

told us not to worry, that "we, your crew, are

here with you! So just stay on board." It was

kind of funny, and yet somehow comforting too.

They also put the flaps down and told us they

were descending to 10,000 feet so that we could

breathe without our oxygen masks. (There's not

much oxygen in those!)

 

Then someone announced that we were diverting to

Kuala Lampur (sp?) and would be there in 1 hour

and ten minutes. It was rather nerve racking because

we really didn't know if our plane would make it

or not. After an hour and ten minutes, we were

told that our plane was returning to Singapore

(another hour) because they had "better landing

facilities" and "better mechanics to fix the plane"

there. Were we going to crash land in Singapore?

It was another tense hour before we landed in

Singapore with scattered applause and huge sighs

of relief.

 

Back in India, it had erroneously been broadcast

that our plane had crashed. One brahmacharin

told Amma that a plane coming from Singapore to

Trivandrum had crashed. Mother looked at him

with one of Her "how can you say that?" looks

and said, "Listen to how he is saying! That

plane has landed safely! My children were on it!"

 

So you see Amma knew all about it, even when

there were erroneous news reports. Jai Ma!

 

(We spent three days in Singapore waiting for

another plane before flying on to Trivandrum.

I took two tranquilizers and was told later I

looked "kind of green" that day, but we got there

at long last, into the arms of our beloved Mother.)

 

 

In Amma's love,

Jyotsna

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Jyostna, thanks for your mail. I joined this

group to get connected to Ammachi, by discussing our

experiences. This is just like a Cyber satsang.

 

Even I used to compare Ammachi with sri sarada devi,

like Sarada Devi was born in 1853, while Ammachi was

born in 1953 (exactly 100 years gap). Similarly both

these women common from only communists states of

India, Kerela and West Bengal, Moreover the main deity

in dakshineshwar and Amritapuri is the Kali in the

form of Bavatharini. But what is the use, personally

where am I heading to. Am I getting detached to this

samsaric world or getting engrossed in it. By

conclusions, comparisions, Verdicts, judgements we are

getting more entagled and attached to this world

rather than detached.

 

As for as myself is concerned, Ammachi is

satchitananda, she not the mortal frame or the body

which we see, rather the Self (atman). If some body

ever sits near Ammachi while she is giving darshan,ITS

INTRESTING TO WATCH THAT Ammachi laughs with one

devotee while hugging, if the next devotee is a baby

she becomes a baby, if the next person as lost his son

or parents she cries. She changes her expression on

her face for each and every devotee, which is only

possible if one is deatched to the external

sorroundings. So many hours she sits together with

very less rest and food, this is only possible when

one is detached to the body. When one is atman with

whom can we compare her with. In order to compare

there shold be two entities.

 

So I humbly request all my siblings in this group that

we have to go a long distance in our life for

realising the Self, getting detached to this world is

not an ordinary thing, we should be vigilant to each

and every thought. So please don't compare Ammachi

with other gurus in your minds. She will take care of

herself, right now its better that we take care of

ourselves. Then only as individuals our life aim would

be accomplished.

 

aum namah shivaya!

Avinash

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

In response to your comments about the material that

has been on the internet by people who have apparently

been 'hurt' because of the conduct of SSB I am not

sure where you are 'coming from'...

To be _silent_, if one has been abused, or has real

evidence of abuse, is in effect colluding with the

perpetrator and _enabling_ a 'sick' person to continue

their abusive actions.

To make a statement inorder to prevent future harm may

be unpleasant to some ,but would be , in a sense,

protecting the innocent... (those who have no clue as

to a broader perspective of what might be going on in

the 'inner circle') or of the repeated conduct of an

abusive personality.

I belonged to a group that I did not know, at the time

,to be led by a very sick, although, 'gifted'

individual. It took some time to come around to an

understanding of what was really the agenda. Since

then, if someone asks me, I just give them the web

address of those who discuss such things and let them

sort it out for themselves. But I will not be

completely silent about it and withhold information.

 

As far as the sun and moon discussion I don't think it

really matters. Amma addresses each person as the

manifestation of the Divine. She would address SSB in

the same manner, I would guess. If we are each a

manifestation of the Divine , then we are reflecting

that to each other most of the time anyway--except

that 'we' cannot appreciate or tap into that level, as

Amma does.

--- "Tom <tomgull" <tomgull wrote:

> Urban legends, "a friend of a friend of a friend

> that I know". Many

> of the claims of abuse of Sai Baba are made in

> ignorance and can be

> picked apart by proper analysis of such claims, and

> checking the

> facts:

>

> 1. Critics of SSB are quick to question his display

> of miracles and

> most claims center around this, with the Western (or

> Eastern Tantric)

> fear that some devilish deed is responsble for this

> powers. Hmmm,

> must be sexual since it's such a priviledge to have

> an interview. I

> think you've watched Holy Smoke too many times (nice

> spoof on Hinduism

> and how westerners get caught up in the wrong way,

> nice display of

> Kate Winslet's body too). Most devotees of SSB

> couldn't care less

> about his "miracles" while his critics do.

>

> 2. Sai Baba's charitable work exceeds or rivals

> Amma's charitable

> works. SSB has placed more of an importance of

> getting away from

> collecting money in the name of God, and much

> importance on seva,

> something which is a big shock for those coming to

> Amma from SSB.

>

> 3. FACT: Most devotees of SSB, unless well-off,

> might get to see

> him once in a lifetime because he doesn't tour like

> other gurus.

>

>

> --

> http://www.geocities.com/p_holbach/eng/shirl_e.htm

>

> Writer investigated, but is not a trained

> investigator who would know

> how to root out fact from fiction, would investigate

> deeper reasons

> for claims rather than "why would they lie"

> mentality.

>

>

> http://www.geocities.com/p_holbach/eng/finds_e.htm

> THE FINDINGS

> More musings than fact. Too much opinion.

>

> http://www.geocities.com/p_holbach/eng/said_e.htm

> The story of Said

>

> Much of what this person went through, one goes

> through with any

> change to a new hopeful religion/belief even

> Christian or Buddhist.

> Other parts of his testimony show his own

> misapplication of SSB's

> teachings and his own mental instability, sort of

> like the book "Go

> Ask Alice" actually encouraging drug

> experimentation rather than

> discouraging it (the "diary" showed her own mental

> instability being

> the true cause of problems).

>

> http://www.geocities.com/p_holbach/eng/tal_e.htm The

> story of Tal

> Brooke

> "who made him gradually re-discover the Bible."

> Need I say more?

>

> http://www.geocities.com/p_holbach/eng/hans_e.htm

> The story of Hans

> Article starts off with a slant.

>

> http://www.geocities.com/p_holbach/eng/couple_e.htm

> The story of an

> ex-devotee

> From a "devotee" who visited once a year, but no

> mention of seva, or

> the joy or benefit of it. Seva as is Amma's is one

> of SSB's main

> tenets. Being in any real sangha of SSB, you'd be

> hard pressed to

> avoid doing some real seva, if you considered

> yourself a devotee.

> Also, the focus on SSB as being Kalki Avatar is a

> certain "sect" of

> SSB devotees, mostly New Agers.

>

> http://www.geocities.com/p_holbach/eng/jed_e.htm The

> story of Jed

> "I was a Sai Devotee for about 4 years. In that time

> I had several

> interviews with Sai Baba. On my final trip to Sai

> Baba, I began to

> question his philosophy and powers. "

>

> What was questionable about his philosophy? What

> he teaches,

> although multi-religion on the surface, has always

> been Hinduistic

> Sanathana Dharma. Having "several interviews" in

> such a short time,

> means he went with a group that was used to getting

> interviews,

> otherwise unheard of for such a short time.

>

> http://www.geocities.com/p_holbach/eng/ugly_e.htm

> The account of an

> ex-student

> "Many of these students were made gay ('sodomized'

> would be an

> unrefined word) by Swami, who himself is a gay."

>

> Hmm, I'll let this one speak for itself. More

> miracle-bashing, like

> anyone cares.

>

> http://www.geocities.com/p_holbach/eng/dark_e.htm

> Sai Baba: the "Bad

> Side"</A>

>

>

> This is my only response to such claims.

>

>

 

 

 

 

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