Guest guest Posted April 12, 2003 Report Share Posted April 12, 2003 Om Amriteswaryai Namaha! I would like to ask Amma for guidance regarding what path I should follow, and am wondering if someone could advise me on the best way to present this type of question to Amma. I do consider Amma to be my guru, and while I would like to devote my life to serving Amma as a brahmacharini, I do not feel that l am suited for this path (I feel great resistance to living at Amritapuri or at one of the M.A. Centers, and am not attracted to worship of the Divine Mother). I am ashamed to confess that while I was in Amritapuri, I found both sadhana and rememberance of God to be excruciatingly difficult, and my negative qualities (vasanas) seemed to increase rather than decrease. The tapas was really difficult for me to deal with, and I have not had any interest in returning to Amritapuri since. I know that Amma was creating situations so that I could become conscious of my vasanas, but it was way too intense for me and made me feel like I would never be able to handle the hardships involved in life as a brahmacharini. When I returned from Amritapuri 5 years ago, I became involved in the Vaisnava Sampradaya. The Vaisnava path is very strict and disciplined, yet I have found it quite effortless to perform sadhana and feel very aligned with the worship of Sri Krishna. Every aspect of this path inspires me to remember God and to renounce my negative qualities, and I am able to happily perform seva for 15+ hours at a stretch without any internal resistance. This makes me wonder whether it was Amma Herself who guided me to the Vaisnava path, knowing that it was the only way I would be able to make spiritual progress. The dilemma I would like to present to Amma revolves around the fact that the particular tradition I am involved in adamantly opposes Advaita and requires me to chant a different mantra than the one Amma has given me. I wouldn't be 'allowed' to have photos or books of Amma, and would not be able to meditate because it is not considered to be an effective spiritual practice in this spiritual tradition. I would be able to chant my mantra silently when engaged in service, and could meditate upon Amma mentally, but I think it would be difficult for me to do formal meditation because of the communal living situation and demanding sadhana and seva schedule. Nevertheless, I have benefited greatly from my experiences on this particular path, and am feeling a strong desire to continue in this direction. My question is whether I would need to provide Amma with all these details, being specific with regard to the various options I am considering, or would a simple, "What path should I follow?" be adequate. Part of me is concerned that Amma might recommend that I pursue a path that doesn't appeal to me and that I will not be surrendered enough to follow Her guidance. This makes me wonder whether or not I should even approach Amma about this issue. Yet if I don't ask for Her advice on this matter, I fear that I will not be able to fully devote myself to the Vaisnava path due to doubts about its "rightness" for me in this lifetime. (Dayamrita Swami told me that my attraction to the Vaisnava Sampradaya will fade away in time, as it is a trick played by the mind. But that if I want to follow this path, I should stick to it to get the maximum benefit). Any insight and advice regarding how best to present this 'dilemma' to Amma would be most helpful and appreciated. Thank you for your time and consideration.... Gratefully, Kirsten khd5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 Jai Kirsten: > I would like to ask Amma for guidance regarding what path I should follow, > and am wondering if someone could advise me on the best way to present this > type of question to Amma. There is only one path ... the path of your heart. Ask Amma in your heart for She is there. Doing so is a clear statement to yourself that you acknowledge Her presence in your heart. > I found both sadhana and rememberance of God to be excruciatingly difficult, > and my negative qualities (vasanas) seemed to increase rather than > decrease. The tapas was really difficult for me to deal with, and I have > not had any interest in returning to Amritapuri since. I know that Amma was > creating situations so that I could become conscious of my vasanas, but it > was way too intense for me and made me feel like I would never be able to > handle the hardships involved in life as a brahmacharini. We need to fully experience that which caused the negative qualities in order for them to be released. While this can be very intense at times, by the shear fact that they come to the surface is a clear indication that we are ready to release them and be free. Bare in mind, it is not just the freedom from our negativity that we seek but acquiring the skill to deal with this stuff. In my books, it is the latter that is more important. In school we learnt "facts". In learning those facts, we acquired the skill to learn. Learn one thing and we have the skill to learn anything. > the particular tradition I am involved in adamantly opposes Advaita and > requires me to chant a different mantra than the one Amma has given me. I > wouldn't be 'allowed' to have photos or books of Amma, and would not be > able to meditate because it is not considered to be an effective spiritual > practice in this spiritual tradition. I would be able to chant my mantra > silently when engaged in service, and could meditate upon Amma mentally, Sounds like you are dividing yourself. Please consider that if you are following one tradition, do so wholly (holy). > My question is whether I would need to provide Amma with all these details, > being specific with regard to the various options I am considering, or > would a simple, "What path should I follow?" be adequate. Amma does not need the details, nor do our hearts, only our minds like those things. Now, suppose you were Amma for a minute. This disciple comes to you babbling lengthy details and finally asks: ""What path should I follow?". How might you answer? Part of me is concerned that Amma might recommend that I pursue a path that doesn't appeal to me and that I will not > be surrendered enough to follow Her guidance. This makes me wonder whether > or not I should even approach Amma about this issue. Yet if I don't ask for > Her advice on this matter, I fear that I will not be able to fully devote > myself to the Vaisnava path due to doubts about its "rightness" for me in > this lifetime.<snip> But that if I want to follow this path, I should stick > to it to get the maximum benefit). > Sounds good to me: Whatever path you follow put all your heart in it. Again, it is the skill of following a path that is important, not which path. For me and purely for me, as this may or may not be of value to you or anyone else, I tend not to ask Amma to make my decisions for me (because I am leaning the skill to make the best decision for me). I do, without hesitation, ask Her guidance to assist me in that endeavor. Om Amriteswaryai Namaha! Kandar (Peter White) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 Jai Kirsten: > I would like to ask Amma for guidance regarding what path I should follow, > and am wondering if someone could advise me on the best way to present this > type of question to Amma. There is only one path ... the path of your heart. Ask Amma in your heart for She is there. Doing so is a clear statement to yourself that you acknowledge Her presence in your heart. > I found both sadhana and rememberance of God to be excruciatingly difficult, > and my negative qualities (vasanas) seemed to increase rather than > decrease. The tapas was really difficult for me to deal with, and I have > not had any interest in returning to Amritapuri since. I know that Amma was > creating situations so that I could become conscious of my vasanas, but it > was way too intense for me and made me feel like I would never be able to > handle the hardships involved in life as a brahmacharini. We need to fully experience that which caused the negative qualities in order for them to be released. While this can be very intense at times, by the shear fact that they come to the surface is a clear indication that we are ready to release them and be free. Bare in mind, it is not just the freedom from our negativity that we seek but acquiring the skill to deal with this stuff. In my books, it is the latter that is more important. In school we learnt "facts". In learning those facts, we acquired the skill to learn. Learn one thing and we have the skill to learn anything. > the particular tradition I am involved in adamantly opposes Advaita and > requires me to chant a different mantra than the one Amma has given me. I > wouldn't be 'allowed' to have photos or books of Amma, and would not be > able to meditate because it is not considered to be an effective spiritual > practice in this spiritual tradition. I would be able to chant my mantra > silently when engaged in service, and could meditate upon Amma mentally, Sounds like you are dividing yourself. Please consider that if you are following one tradition, do so wholly (holy). > My question is whether I would need to provide Amma with all these details, > being specific with regard to the various options I am considering, or > would a simple, "What path should I follow?" be adequate. Amma does not need the details, nor do our hearts, only our minds like those things. Now, suppose you were Amma for a minute. This disciple comes to you babbling lengthy details and finally asks: ""What path should I follow?". How might you answer? Part of me is concerned that Amma might recommend that I pursue a path that doesn't appeal to me and that I will not > be surrendered enough to follow Her guidance. This makes me wonder whether > or not I should even approach Amma about this issue. Yet if I don't ask for > Her advice on this matter, I fear that I will not be able to fully devote > myself to the Vaisnava path due to doubts about its "rightness" for me in > this lifetime.<snip> But that if I want to follow this path, I should stick > to it to get the maximum benefit). > Sounds good to me: Whatever path you follow put all your heart in it. Again, it is the skill of following a path that is important, not which path. For me and purely for me, as this may or may not be of value to you or anyone else, I tend not to ask Amma to make my decisions for me (because I am leaning the skill to make the best decision for me). I do, without hesitation, ask Her guidance to assist me in that endeavor. Om Amriteswaryai Namaha! Kandar (Peter White) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 Jai Kirsten: > I would like to ask Amma for guidance regarding what path I should follow, > and am wondering if someone could advise me on the best way to present this > type of question to Amma. There is only one path ... the path of your heart. Ask Amma in your heart for She is there. Doing so is a clear statement to yourself that you acknowledge Her presence in your heart. > I found both sadhana and rememberance of God to be excruciatingly difficult, > and my negative qualities (vasanas) seemed to increase rather than > decrease. The tapas was really difficult for me to deal with, and I have > not had any interest in returning to Amritapuri since. I know that Amma was > creating situations so that I could become conscious of my vasanas, but it > was way too intense for me and made me feel like I would never be able to > handle the hardships involved in life as a brahmacharini. We need to fully experience that which caused the negative qualities in order for them to be released. While this can be very intense at times, by the shear fact that they come to the surface is a clear indication that we are ready to release them and be free. Bare in mind, it is not just the freedom from our negativity that we seek but acquiring the skill to deal with this stuff. In my books, it is the latter that is more important. In school we learnt "facts". In learning those facts, we acquired the skill to learn. Learn one thing and we have the skill to learn anything. > the particular tradition I am involved in adamantly opposes Advaita and > requires me to chant a different mantra than the one Amma has given me. I > wouldn't be 'allowed' to have photos or books of Amma, and would not be > able to meditate because it is not considered to be an effective spiritual > practice in this spiritual tradition. I would be able to chant my mantra > silently when engaged in service, and could meditate upon Amma mentally, Sounds like you are dividing yourself. Please consider that if you are following one tradition, do so wholly (holy). > My question is whether I would need to provide Amma with all these details, > being specific with regard to the various options I am considering, or > would a simple, "What path should I follow?" be adequate. Amma does not need the details, nor do our hearts, only our minds like those things. Now, suppose you were Amma for a minute. This disciple comes to you babbling lengthy details and finally asks: ""What path should I follow?". How might you answer? Part of me is concerned that Amma might recommend that I pursue a path that doesn't appeal to me and that I will not > be surrendered enough to follow Her guidance. This makes me wonder whether > or not I should even approach Amma about this issue. Yet if I don't ask for > Her advice on this matter, I fear that I will not be able to fully devote > myself to the Vaisnava path due to doubts about its "rightness" for me in > this lifetime.<snip> But that if I want to follow this path, I should stick > to it to get the maximum benefit). > Sounds good to me: Whatever path you follow put all your heart in it. Again, it is the skill of following a path that is important, not which path. For me and purely for me, as this may or may not be of value to you or anyone else, I tend not to ask Amma to make my decisions for me (because I am leaning the skill to make the best decision for me). I do, without hesitation, ask Her guidance to assist me in that endeavor. Om Amriteswaryai Namaha! Kandar (Peter White) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 Namah Shivaya Kristen, Im sure you know that Amma used to give darshan in Krishna Bhava, i.e. the mood of Krishna. First go through these two pages: http://www.amritapuri.org/amma/know/ksudha.htm http://www.amritapuri.org/amma/2002/0203krishna.htm >From what I've read/heard, the reason Amma does not give darshan in Krishna bhava now is because, he is very detached from everything. (his true nature) In such a frame of mind, she said she could not feel that level of compassion. Make no mistake, I simply adore him but he has his own personality. Of course, he helps his devotees with their problems. But he likes to see whether they deserve his help. [And when he decides to help, nothing can stop his grace!] The divine mother, however, just cannot see her children suffer (no matter what their karma is) and comes running to heal them immediately. When Amma is in Devi bhava, she just feels all of creation is her children. All she can do then, is to love them and make her children's lives a celebration. Many people feel an intense love and longing to behold Krishna. The first thing that draws people's attention are the beautiful decorations in any Radha-Krishna temple. Sometimes, I too feel like sitting and looking at the divine couple for hours! Vishnu, who manifested himself as Krishna, is Rama in a different incarnation. (with a different personality) He is also popularly worshipped as Lord Venkateswara of Tirumala. Regarding your question, I would suggest that you look at a picture of Amma in Krishna bhava, for e.g. http://www.mothersbooks.org/cgi-bin/Web_store/web_store.cgi? cart_id=7389436.15969 There is a clearer picture in the biography written by Swami. Sometimes, I look at it and cant help telling myself, "She looks amazingly cute in this bhava!" Think of yourself as one of his gopis (a difficult thing for men to imagine , listen to a bhajan with fast beats (e.g. Meri Sun Le Araj, Brij me Aisa, sung by Amma) and imagine the divine scene where he multiplies himself and dances with each of them! Also remember, that any path that encourages you to make your mind like a child's, has got something right, at least. Think of the butter thief and imagine him each time you see a child smile at you. Changing the mantra permanently may not be a very good idea. Remember, when Amma gave you the mantra, she transmitted a part of herself into you. A mantra received from one who is 'partially' realized will not do any good. So, think well before you discard your gift from Amma, a fully realized satguru. Chanting general mantras on different occassions should be fine. But your personal mantra is best not changed. **Can someone here can tell us if Amma will grant a mantra (different from the original one) if the devotee requests it?** Finally, I would suggest being part of a local satsang (if you're not already part of one). Its a nice way to meet similar minded people and to have a good time as part of Amma's big family! Btw, I have no idea why I typed all this. Maybe Amma would know Jai Ma, Ravi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 15, 2003 Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 Dear Kirsten, I admire the honest expression of your feelings and thinking in your post. I humbly offer my own thoughts on your post. If I were you I would surely take your question to Amma, and ask Her to guide you to the best path for you. I would tell Amma about the path you are involved in, and feel good in, but that you are troubled because you are not allowed to have your pictures or books of Amma with you, or to vocally chant the mantra She gave you. So, ask Amma waht is best for you to do. And you might also tell Her that you found life at Amritapuri was not suited for you now. My own experience is that Amma knows your question before you ask it, and that She will guide you to what is the best for you, and that it can even take a few months or years for it all to play out. I have found, in asking Amma my own questions, that it is important to be open and ready to listen to the answers Amma gives. I have been in situations where I was not open to listen to the advice Amma was giving to me, and I sincerely regret my closedness, as it only led to more difficulties in my own life; but I could not see that at that time. At that time ,which was several years ago, I only knew what I wanted to hear Amma say, and when She did not say it I tried in every way I could to get Her to approve of what I thought was best for me and my life. This was a very big mistake I made. So, from personal experience I would advice you to listen carefully to what Amma says, and to provide Her with as many details as you want. I know personally of very separate instances of two devotees of Amma , coming from different countries, that when Amma was asked for advice on their spiritual practices, Amma told them not to formally sit to meditate. Both have mantras from Amma. One of these devotees does a truly tremendous amount of service for Amma's mission. The other devotee had great trouble in accepting this advice, but Amma saw that this was not the best way for that individual devotee, and that doing more karma yoga, or service, was best. This was definetely not what that individual devotee wanted to hear, and it took the devotee some time to begin to digest and accept Amma's advice. So, one never knows what Amma will say, but we know that She dearly loves us, and sees what is best for each one of us. Good luck to you. At Amma's feet, Sara Ammachi, <khd5@a...> wrote: > Om Amriteswaryai Namaha! > > I would like to ask Amma for guidance regarding what path I should follow, and am wondering if someone could advise me on the best way to present this type of question to Amma. I do consider Amma to be my guru, and while I would like to devote my life to serving Amma as a brahmacharini, I do not feel that l am suited for this path (I feel great resistance to living at Amritapuri or at one of the M.A. Centers, and am not attracted to worship of the Divine Mother). I am ashamed to confess that while I was in Amritapuri, I found both sadhana and rememberance of God to be excruciatingly difficult, and my negative qualities (vasanas) seemed to increase rather than decrease. The tapas was really difficult for me to deal with, and I have not had any interest in returning to Amritapuri since. I know that Amma was creating situations so that I could become conscious of my vasanas, but it was way too intense for me and made me feel like I would never be able to handle the hardships involved in life as a brahmacharini. When I returned from Amritapuri 5 years ago, I became involved in the Vaisnava Sampradaya. The Vaisnava path is very strict and disciplined, yet I have found it quite effortless to perform sadhana and feel very aligned with the worship of Sri Krishna. Every aspect of this path inspires me to remember God and to renounce my negative qualities, and I am able to happily perform seva for 15+ hours at a stretch without any internal resistance. This makes me wonder whether it was Amma Herself who guided me to the Vaisnava path, knowing that it was the only way I would be able to make spiritual progress. > > The dilemma I would like to present to Amma revolves around the fact that the particular tradition I am involved in adamantly opposes Advaita and requires me to chant a different mantra than the one Amma has given me. I wouldn't be 'allowed' to have photos or books of Amma, and would not be able to meditate because it is not considered to be an effective spiritual practice in this spiritual tradition. I would be able to chant my mantra silently when engaged in service, and could meditate upon Amma mentally, but I think it would be difficult for me to do formal meditation because of the communal living situation and demanding sadhana and seva schedule. Nevertheless, I have benefited greatly from my experiences on this particular path, and am feeling a strong desire to continue in this direction. > > My question is whether I would need to provide Amma with all these details, being specific with regard to the various options I am considering, or would a simple, "What path should I follow?" be adequate. Part of me is concerned that Amma might recommend that I pursue a path that doesn't appeal to me and that I will not be surrendered enough to follow Her guidance. This makes me wonder whether or not I should even approach Amma about this issue. Yet if I don't ask for Her advice on this matter, I fear that I will not be able to fully devote myself to the Vaisnava path due to doubts about its "rightness" for me in this lifetime. (Dayamrita Swami told me that my attraction to the Vaisnava Sampradaya will fade away in time, as it is a trick played by the mind. But that if I want to follow this path, I should stick to it to get the maximum benefit). > > Any insight and advice regarding how best to present this 'dilemma' to Amma would be most helpful and appreciated. > > Thank you for your time and consideration.... > > Gratefully, > > Kirsten > khd5@a... > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 2003 Report Share Posted April 16, 2003 dear sister Kirsten, AMMA siad faith is the best friend.By getting a GURU like AMMA, you are really the blessed one, then why you left and gone four another path, is an un answerable. Be stick on to AMMA chant the manthra, sure you will reach the goal. praying for your. aum namah sivayah: saramj33 <saramj wrote:Dear Kirsten, I admire the honest expression of your feelings and thinking in your post. I humbly offer my own thoughts on your post. If I were you I would surely take your question to Amma, and ask Her to guide you to the best path for you. I would tell Amma about the path you are involved in, and feel good in, but that you are troubled because you are not allowed to have your pictures or books of Amma with you, or to vocally chant the mantra She gave you. So, ask Amma waht is best for you to do. And you might also tell Her that you found life at Amritapuri was not suited for you now. My own experience is that Amma knows your question before you ask it, and that She will guide you to what is the best for you, and that it can even take a few months or years for it all to play out. I have found, in asking Amma my own questions, that it is important to be open and ready to listen to the answers Amma gives. I have been in situations where I was not open to listen to the advice Amma was giving to me, and I sincerely regret my closedness, as it only led to more difficulties in my own life; but I could not see that at that time. At that time ,which was several years ago, I only knew what I wanted to hear Amma say, and when She did not say it I tried in every way I could to get Her to approve of what I thought was best for me and my life. This was a very big mistake I made. So, from personal experience I would advice you to listen carefully to what Amma says, and to provide Her with as many details as you want. I know personally of very separate instances of two devotees of Amma , coming from different countries, that when Amma was asked for advice on their spiritual practices, Amma told them not to formally sit to meditate. Both have mantras from Amma. One of these devotees does a truly tremendous amount of service for Amma's mission. The other devotee had great trouble in accepting this advice, but Amma saw that this was not the best way for that individual devotee, and that doing more karma yoga, or service, was best. This was definetely not what that individual devotee wanted to hear, and it took the devotee some time to begin to digest and accept Amma's advice. So, one never knows what Amma will say, but we know that She dearly loves us, and sees what is best for each one of us. Good luck to you. At Amma's feet, Sara Ammachi, wrote: > Om Amriteswaryai Namaha! > > I would like to ask Amma for guidance regarding what path I should follow, and am wondering if someone could advise me on the best way to present this type of question to Amma. I do consider Amma to be my guru, and while I would like to devote my life to serving Amma as a brahmacharini, I do not feel that l am suited for this path (I feel great resistance to living at Amritapuri or at one of the M.A. Centers, and am not attracted to worship of the Divine Mother). I am ashamed to confess that while I was in Amritapuri, I found both sadhana and rememberance of God to be excruciatingly difficult, and my negative qualities (vasanas) seemed to increase rather than decrease. The tapas was really difficult for me to deal with, and I have not had any interest in returning to Amritapuri since. I know that Amma was creating situations so that I could become conscious of my vasanas, but it was way too intense for me and made me feel like I would never be able to handle the hardships involved in life as a brahmacharini. When I returned from Amritapuri 5 years ago, I became involved in the Vaisnava Sampradaya. The Vaisnava path is very strict and disciplined, yet I have found it quite effortless to perform sadhana and feel very aligned with the worship of Sri Krishna. Every aspect of this path inspires me to remember God and to renounce my negative qualities, and I am able to happily perform seva for 15+ hours at a stretch without any internal resistance. This makes me wonder whether it was Amma Herself who guided me to the Vaisnava path, knowing that it was the only way I would be able to make spiritual progress. > > The dilemma I would like to present to Amma revolves around the fact that the particular tradition I am involved in adamantly opposes Advaita and requires me to chant a different mantra than the one Amma has given me. I wouldn't be 'allowed' to have photos or books of Amma, and would not be able to meditate because it is not considered to be an effective spiritual practice in this spiritual tradition. I would be able to chant my mantra silently when engaged in service, and could meditate upon Amma mentally, but I think it would be difficult for me to do formal meditation because of the communal living situation and demanding sadhana and seva schedule. Nevertheless, I have benefited greatly from my experiences on this particular path, and am feeling a strong desire to continue in this direction. > > My question is whether I would need to provide Amma with all these details, being specific with regard to the various options I am considering, or would a simple, "What path should I follow?" be adequate. Part of me is concerned that Amma might recommend that I pursue a path that doesn't appeal to me and that I will not be surrendered enough to follow Her guidance. This makes me wonder whether or not I should even approach Amma about this issue. Yet if I don't ask for Her advice on this matter, I fear that I will not be able to fully devote myself to the Vaisnava path due to doubts about its "rightness" for me in this lifetime. (Dayamrita Swami told me that my attraction to the Vaisnava Sampradaya will fade away in time, as it is a trick played by the mind. But that if I want to follow this path, I should stick to it to get the maximum benefit). > > Any insight and advice regarding how best to present this 'dilemma' to Amma would be most helpful and appreciated. > > Thank you for your time and consideration.... > > Gratefully, > > Kirsten > khd5@a... > > > Aum Amriteswarayai Namaha! Ammachi Your use of is subject to Plus - For a better Internet experience Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 17, 2003 Report Share Posted April 17, 2003 Om Namah Sivaya, Amma, in Her great mercy and compassion, has transformed my mind and heart with regard to my confusion regarding which 'path' to follow. I now realize that the dilemma was a creation of my mind, largely based in fear and a desire to avoid tapas. The resistance I had been feeling to completely surrendering to Amma and living at Amritapuri has been replaced with increased faith in Amma and an intense desire and willingness to confront my vasanas and accept whatever situations Amma feels are necessary for my growth. I am now making plans to travel to Amritapuri this fall. I greatly appreciate receiving the feedback from other devotees, as your input helped me to see my error, and to open my heart and mind to Amma's grace! Jai Ma!! With immense gratitude, Kirsten khd5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 18, 2003 Report Share Posted April 18, 2003 Kirsten: > Amma, in Her great mercy and compassion, has transformed my mind and heart > with regard to my confusion regarding which 'path' to follow. I now realize > that the dilemma was a creation of my mind, What a blessing! Indeed, all dilemmas are created in the mind! Times of trauma are always a sign of great growth coming. Om Amriteswaryai Namaha! Kandar (Peter White) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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